In My Shoes

[Guest]

I'm a registered user looking for advice. There are many reasons to do so anonymously. Please don't assume I'm a troll, just because I chose not to use a name for this post.

My marriage has been in serious trouble for almost 2 1/2 years. We've done the counseling thing, the splitting up thing, the getting back together for the sake of the children thing. We achieve small improvements, but no real headway.

We're both good people, just not good together, it would seem.

Today, we were having what had become our morning argument. The topic changes regularly, but the tone is always the same. He wants to know why I didn't accomplish X (in this case putting away all the laundry he'd folded) while he was gone, and I want to know why X is so important to him today when it hasn't mattered in the past. He walks from the room muttering about how no one respects him, I tell him it's easier to respect someone who says things to your face instead of muttering as they walk away.

He stays in the kitchen, I keep going on the laundry I've been doing since 8 am while he slept til noon.

As I'm walking through the kitchen with a load of laundry bound for the dryer, I hear him mumble "We might as well get divorced."

I finished putting the clothes in the dryer, and asked him if I heard properly. Does he really want a divorce? He sighs, and says that neither of us are happy with 'the way we live' but that he doesn't know if he meant it.

We have never used that word. No matter how bad it's been. I choose not to use it, because to me, it's final. There's no backing away from it once you've said that's what you want.

I know that he'll probably tell me that he didn't mean it the way it sounded, or he'll pretend he never said it, or that I'm taking his words out of context. But they were spoken, and therefore (IMO) meant.

I suppose what I'm looking for is advice on where I go from here. One thing I fear greatly is on the horizon, and I need advice and help in dealing with it. The obvious answer is to get a good lawyer, and I can handle that much. I need advice on surviving the ugliness, protecting the kids, making sure I don't end up homeless, etc.

How much can be used against me? Most of my friends are male, what does it take for them to be called into court and accused of being my lovers? The embarassment may destoy the few friendships I have.

Does anyone else agree that there are certain words or phrases that once uttered have the power to set irreversable events into motion?

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

I got a couple of new phrases for ya.

"Do your own laundry fuck head."

"You ain't gettin' none - for ever."

"Take more business trips, we like it when you're away."

 

[Andreina]

not knowing you at all and not knowing your wider circumstances I gather the following: to ME you sound at least as unhappy as he does. how much future do you have if you keep hurting each other?
For children it is often better to have parents who split up - a clean split - rather than having a home where tension is constant and happiness a rare occasion.
I myself went through a phase as a child where my parents were on the verge of getting divorced (for various reasons), that was when i was 8 years old. Even today I still often think and dream about it, wishing that I would have never had to listen to them or see how much they hated each other then.

Do you think you would be happier without your husband?

P.S.: There are a lot of groups (I'm sure in your area too) who offer support to women who are in the same situation as you are.

 

[Andreina]

forgot something: (((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))) and a big bar of chocolate for YOU alone

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Yep...like everything anyone ever says...

Nothing can be taken back, and it all has an affect. you say you hated someone (say a lover or friend) and it hurts them, even though you don't really mean it, and when it's in the past and you have another problem, the words come back to them and they wonder: Did she/he really mean that?
It never goes away, unless you forget that they even said them, and most people don't forget things that hurt or seem relevant at the time, regardless of how they seem later.
Case in point, I used to see this girl, and she was actually pretty sweet, although we had some difficulties concerning people'
s intervention and another guy being at her place and her lieing to cover it up. That was a year ago, and a few weeks ago, i ran into her. She came up me, was actually standing behind me when i turned and looked back. She had been looking at me every now and again, not negative, spiteful looks but obviously wondersome looks, the same looks she used to give me. When she saw me glance back she said, in her same sweet voice, "Hi, Quiet." (Well, not Quiet, but...) I could have said anything, asked a question (how are you doing?) and most likely talked her into seeing me again with almost no difficulty (though there's no guarantee), and I was amazed how much I wanted to do just that, but instead, I just said, Hey...," and turned back to the woman I was talking to. I knew no matter what happened, I wouldn't be able to deal with her after the situation we'd had before, and it all came down to her saying, "Noody's here." Two words that should have meant nothing.
It's funny how, all in good fun, things are all too serious.
It's not the same as your situation, but, I think the point behind it is similar.

 

[Cheyenne]

Does anyone else agree that there are certain words or phrases that once uttered have the power to set irreversable events into motion?

No, I don't. It seems more like you were afraid to say those words yourself but you're relieved to hear them come from his mouth instead. Maybe then you can blame him for being the one to ask for the divorce?

Divorce can be ugly. Someone close to me is in the middle of a divorce right now. She doesn't think her almost ex-spouse is a violent person, but I'm not so sure. She was supposed to call me hours ago to let me know she was okay today (a milestone step in the divorce proceeding came yesterday) and I haven't heard from her. She is probably fine, but I'm worried anyway. And I have no way to call her because she is out of the house (I hope.)
These two started the divorce months ago in a civil manner and the state they live in is just unbelievable for what they make a couple go through to get a divorce. They are now ready to kill each other, ala War of the Roses. I wouldn't wish a divorce on my worst enemy if there was some way to avoid it.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: In My Shoes

No, I don't. It seems more like you were afraid to say those words yourself but you're relieved to hear them come from his mouth instead. Maybe then you can blame him for being the one to ask for the divorce?

No, that's not the case. I initiated the first seperation and have been trying to convince him that a second one wouldn't be a bad idea. I have no intention of blaming him for anything. I don't seek blame and I refuse to have it put on me. I believe in personal responsibility. And part of that is not saying things you don't mean and then hoping you can take them back later.

I'll admit I'm scared, but it's not the divorce that I fear, it's the ramifications. It's the fear that I'll learn to hate the man that I swore to love forever. I fear my children will never understand why. But I don't fear the end of my marriage, I don't fear my husband.

 

[Rick DeVille]

There's such a thing as a mutual divorce, if you both want it, work out what you are going to do with the kids, money, everything before you go to the lawyers. Adults should be able to dissolve relationships in an intelligent way without an adverserial lawyer who just wants to prolong the fight.

I don't normally give advice but this time I'll make an exception because of who you are.

BTW I've been through a few divorces and I'm still friends with all my ex wives. More importantly all the kids are happy.

 

[Thumper]

Re: Re: In My Shoes

Divorce can be ugly.

Yes it can be, but it doesn't have to be.

And no, uttering a phrase doesn't make it irreversible. God forbid he should say, "I wish I was dead", would you hold him to that? Or yourself?

If you truly are at an impasse and your personalities/goals/desires are incompatible then end it. When you do decide to end the marriage then at that moment put the welfare of the children at the top of both of your lists.

DON'T point fingers and look to assign blame. Is it really important whose "fault" it is?

DON'T talk badly about one another to the kids. This will surely backfire as they grow older. And it won't make you feel any better.

DO be civil. You both, at one time or another, did care very much for each other. Try to be friends even. It is possible. You have children together. Focus on them and forget the trivial differences between you both. They are trivial, you will see this in the years to come.

He nitpicks about the little things because he either doesn't know, or doesn't want to face what the real problems are.

It is wise to get legal counsel but it doesn't mean you have to stop talking. If you both agree that divorce is inevitable then do it and do what is best for the children.

Getting a divorce doesn't mean someone has to be the bad guy.

From one(two) who has been able to find the high road.

 

[Cheyenne]

I'll admit I'm scared, but it's not the divorce that I fear, it's the ramifications. It's the fear that I'll learn to hate the man that I swore to love forever. I fear my children will never understand why. But I don't fear the end of my marriage, I don't fear my husband.

Maybe some divorces get done with both parties still being civil to each other. I'm just not seeing a good example now. There is one child involved, and the husband is already making the child suffer just to get back at the wife who is divorcing him. And truthfully, at the beginning of all of this, I would have sworn that was the one thing in the world he would never ever do- hurt his child. But he is. Divorce changes people, and not for the better. You have reason to be afraid I think.

 

[Guest]

I don't normally give advice but this time I'll make an exception because of who you are.

Thank you.

We tried the rational splitting up of belongings, etc, once before. I also think that there's no reason two people can't end their marriage sanely and with respect. It was miserable. I am afraid that it would degenerate into a "What can I insist on taking that would hurt the other person the most" thing, and I can't handle that.

Anyone have experience with professional mediation rather than getting lawyers?

 

[Cath!]

Does anyone else agree that there are certain words or phrases that once uttered have the power to set irreversable events into motion?

Yes and no...I have been in this situation and I was the one that used the "D" word...at the moment, things are peaceful around this house. That's not to say that they will be forever.

BUT...one thing I did...and I have never regretted it...is that I emailed FlamingoBlue and he has a wealth of information and words of wisdom on this subject...besides that...what you say to him...stays with him.

You need advice from a qualified divorce attorney...not us.

 

[Thumper]

Is hurting the other person important...to either party?

Try this...be willing to give up everything material (not support or alimony if it is warranted just the "stuff"). The minute you are willing to give up the material possessions then you take away any potential hurt he may think he can inflict, and any hurt you might feel.

I am no Christian, but the "If he sues for your coat then give him your cloak also" axiom has meaning for me.

It takes two to offend.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Re: Re: Re: In My Shoes

No, that's not the case. I initiated the first seperation and have been trying to convince him that a second one wouldn't be a bad idea. I have no intention of blaming him for anything. I don't seek blame and I refuse to have it put on me. I believe in personal responsibility. And part of that is not saying things you don't mean and then hoping you can take them back later.

I'll admit I'm scared, but it's not the divorce that I fear, it's the ramifications. It's the fear that I'll learn to hate the man that I swore to love forever. I fear my children will never understand why. But I don't fear the end of my marriage, I don't fear my husband.

Excatly...personal responsibility...you're willing to take responsibility for what happens here. It takes guts, but it also makes us strong, makes us someone we can be proud to be. Many poeple never learn to do this, in fact, I think most people have no idea what the word "conviction" means.
That response by itself shows you're more prepared for this than you may realize. As far as you and your husband go, do you think he's the kind of person who you really should fer, not in the sense that he'll try to hurt you physically (I'd assume that you would never have married him or would have already left were he tht type of man...well, person--let's not cheapen the word man by including these sorts in the definition), but in terms of what you said concerning your male friends? Would you be afraid of his input, or that of his lawyer's in terms of the court dispute? What I'm asking is, since you obviosly realize that the marriage's difficulties (any marriage's difficulties) are either no one's fault, or everyone's fault (rarely is it only one person's fault), do you have some rational reason to concern yourself over your ability to hate him? In the end, you WILL hold spite for one another. Goes with the territory, but if you realize that whatever happens in court isn't his idea or fault, but the actions of his lawyer in order to gain the best outcome for him, then I think you'll find yourself in a much better position than you realize...
Just a thought...

 

[Cheyenne]

We tried the rational splitting up of belongings, etc, once before. I also think that there's no reason two people can't end their marriage sanely and with respect. It was miserable. I am afraid that it would degenerate into a "What can I insist on taking that would hurt the other person the most" thing, and I can't handle that.

Exactly. I'm not a divorce attorney, but here's my financial tip of the day. Make sure you have copies of ALL of the family financial records before you walk into a lawyer's office. Actually, make sure you have copies of anything that is really important. Assume the originals could disappear never to be seen again.

As soon as the divorce papers are served, an entire household of records can disappear over night. Something as simple as an address book can drive you crazy when you no longer have phone numbers or addresses for your friends! Or a calendar with birthdays written on it, and family appointments. Or the records to when the oil was last changed in the car. Or a whole list of other day to day things that can disappear at the drop of a hat when your spouse gets pissed. You trust that your hubby won't be so petty? Don't bet on it.

 

[Cheyenne]

Re: Re: In My Shoes

She doesn't think her almost ex-spouse is a violent person, but I'm not so sure. She was supposed to call me hours ago to let me know she was okay today (a milestone step in the divorce proceeding came yesterday) and I haven't heard from her. She is probably fine, but I'm worried anyway.

I finally reached her and she is fine. I yelled at her though for making me worry about her all day! (We had a communication mixup as to when she was going to call.)

Which leads me to another comment. I think the divorce process itself may be a little easier if you have close family and friends in your area to lean on. You'll need all the help and support you can get.

 

[Bigdog]

Exactly. I'm not a divorce attorney, but here's my financial tip of the day. Make sure you have copies of ALL of the family financial records before you walk into a lawyer's office. Actually, make sure you have copies of anything that is really important. Assume the originals could disappear never to be seen again.

As soon as the divorce papers are served, an entire household of records can disappear over night. Something as simple as an address book can drive you crazy when you no longer have phone numbers or addresses for your friends! Or a calendar with birthdays written on it, and family appointments. Or the records to when the oil was last changed in the car. Or a whole list of other day to day things that can disappear at the drop of a hat when your spouse gets pissed. You trust that your hubby won't be so petty? Don't bet on it.

So true. My Mom has been separated from my stepdad for almost a year. New Year's Eve he came in early in the morning while she was asleep and made off with the ENTIRE filing cabinet. Checkbooks, bank statements, personal files, business records, inheritance accounts, tax records; all gone. My Mom has spent the better part of this week tracking down accounts and closing them, in several instances he had already been to the bank and made off with the funds.

The part that really irks her is her sons (my brother and me) have been telling her for months to remove all the records from the house. She was a day late and a dollar (OK, more like $50k) short.

 

[Guest]

 

[Savage Kitten]

I suppose what I'm looking for is advice on where I go from here. One thing I fear greatly is on the horizon, and I need advice and help in dealing with it. The obvious answer is to get a good lawyer, and I can handle that much. I need advice on surviving the ugliness, protecting the kids, making sure I don't end up homeless, etc.

I agree with Thumper. You can be civil adults, if not for yourself then for your children. It doesn't have to be ugly. Who/What do you have to protect your children from, you and your husband?

I do know what I am talking about. I stressed over the same questions for a year and a half before making the final decision. I had never been on my own before. I was a high school grad with really no job expierence.

We were married 4 yrs when I left the first time. I came back to try to make it work, "for the children". In the end it was my children that helped me make my final decision. What kind of example was I being to them staying in the kind of relationship I had with their father? I wanted them to know that a woman could be strong on her own, could survive on her own two feet. I didn't want them to think that they had no other choice than stay in a bad relationship.

The 1st time, I left. The next time, he left. I started months in advance, putting back money and making preparations. It was scary as hell, but I had to take a leap of faith, faith in myself.

I made sure that I never spoke bad about my ex to my children. I didn't let anyone else talk bad about him either when they were around. When I made him move out, b4 the divorce was final, my girls were 6 and 9. I recall him sitting on the couch, telling the girls that "daddy couldn't spend the night because mommy was tearing our family apart. mommy was making daddy leave and we couldn't be a family any more." It tore me up, I cried so much. But I didn't let him know, and I didn't let the girls see it either. I made sure the girls understood that our divorce was not their fault and not a result of something they did.

He tried to talk me down to my girls every chance he got, he still talks bad about me to them at times. But, they are old enough now to see him for what he is. If I had trashed him from the beginning they would have been defensive for him, glorified him, they love him. So now, their knowledge of who and what their dad is, is untainted by my opinion.

Sometimes divorce is the easy way out. Please think about it. It's easier to throw up your hands and get frustrated than it is to communicate.

Nobody can make the decision for you. I wish you the best of luck and strength. The road ahead is not an easy one.

Sk~

 

[Vanyel_Ashke]

Re: Re: Re: In My Shoes

Yes it can be, but it doesn't have to be.

And no, uttering a phrase doesn't make it irreversible. God forbid he should say, "I wish I was dead", would you hold him to that? Or yourself?

If you truly are at an impasse and your personalities/goals/desires are incompatible then end it. When you do decide to end the marriage then at that moment put the welfare of the children at the top of both of your lists.

DON'T point fingers and look to assign blame. Is it really important whose "fault" it is?

DON'T talk badly about one another to the kids. This will surely backfire as they grow older. And it won't make you feel any better.

DO be civil. You both, at one time or another, did care very much for each other. Try to be friends even. It is possible. You have children together. Focus on them and forget the trivial differences between you both. They are trivial, you will see this in the years to come.

He nitpicks about the little things because he either doesn't know, or doesn't want to face what the real problems are.

It is wise to get legal counsel but it doesn't mean you have to stop talking. If you both agree that divorce is inevitable then do it and do what is best for the children.

Getting a divorce doesn't mean someone has to be the bad guy.

From one(two) who has been able to find the high road.

Damn, Thumper took the words right out of my mouth. What a sensitive reply to a touchy subject. Nicely put Thumper.

The only thing I would add is to be careful of lawyers. There are some who will take a friendly parting and try to turn it into a war zone. They don't get money from a short friendly divorce.

 

[BlondGirl]

How about separating for a year and THEN using the D-word? Forbid it until then. If that is still what you both want, you will both be as independant of each other as you can when the actual ending comes. And the hoops you have to jump through to get the finalization. And any independance you gain before jumping over that fire will be invaluable.

The kids are the major issue, I am sure. If you have already established a living/visitation agreement that works when you proceed legally, you will have dealt with the biggest stressor.

I am not sure what state you are in, but in my own the procedure seems pretty simple.

 

[StondTmplPilot]

I'm not the best to give advice so I won't. I will just say that it is possible to end a marriage on good terms if both parties want that. I divorced last year, and now, my ex and I get along better than we ever did when we were married, hell, she is probably the best friend I have. There is nothing I wouldnt do for her in a pinch, and I feel that she would help me when needed also. It sounds to me that you would like to keep it civil, and if he feels the same, there is no reason you can't. Not all men are assholes, and if he still gives a shit for your feelings, he will not make it a difficult divorce.

 

[YogiBare]

Lots of good advice here. My ex and I divorced several years ago and have managed to remain good friends. All I've got to add is an observation and a couple of suggestions.

Observation: Just because he used the D word doesn't make divorce a done deal. Could have been a trial balloon intended to put the option on the table for discussion. What do you want to happen?

First suggestion: If it looks like divorce is ahead, see if you and your husband can agree to make the children's needs paramount. That agreement will almost ensure cooperation and that each of you will get your basic and most important needs met. Why? Because the kids really need two involved parents who can communicate and cooperate, who can each provide them with a secure and comfortable home environment. It puts a positive focus on property settlement, custody/visitation, etc. I am convinced that . were it not for our daughter, my ex and I were angry enough at the time to have had a major war. I'm grateful that we didn't.

Second suggestion: Divorce mediation is the way to go if you want to come out of this respecting one another, better able to communicate, and with both of you getting the critical basics for your future lives. Find a good mediator and have that person recomment "mediation-friendly" attorneys for both of you. this way, no barracuda lawyers who wind up with most of your assets in legal fees.

Best wishes.