Image in Poetry

[Tzara]

There's an awful lot of very interesting poetry being posted to the 30/30 thread right now and, as always, good poetry gets me thinking. What this poetry has me thinking about currently is image.

Image is really important to poetry. A university course on poetry writing I once took went so far as to state that "[t]he foundation of poetry is image." I'm not sure that I would go quite that far, but image is certainly important. So the question is, what makes a good image?

I got on this kick thinking about a line in one of RedButterflySlut's poems--Her dark brunette ponytail swung like a hypnotist's watch--and trying to understand why I liked it so much. It isn't perfect, of course ("brunette" would seem to imply "dark," for example, making it superfluous), but it is a good line, or at least I think it's a good line.

What I finally decided about why I thought it was good is that it more that simple description. Consider this rewrite: Her dark brunette ponytail swung like a pendulum clock. Granted, that's a little clunky in phrasing, but carries the same descriptive concept, that of the other girl's ponytail swinging back and forth like a pendulum. What it doesn't contain is the emotional content of the original--that the narrator is fascinated, even mesmerized by the hair swinging back and forth. This brings the description into the theme of the poem--the emotional/sexual attachment the narrator has to the girl.

It does this so well that I think the next line in RBS's poem--And I was mesmerized--is superfluous to the point of detracting from the image. It states the obvious.

To use another example, one that RBS's simile made me think of, consider the opening of Eliot's Prufrock:

Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table​

Again, we could rewrite the line to keep the main descriptive element as something like like a body asleep upon a table, but that leaves out the emotional overtones of illness and being drugged that give the simile its power.

Anyway I'm blathering, as usual, and will likely blather on more later. How do you all think about image, construct images? Do you consciously think about what you want a particular image to convey, or are you more or less just winging it?

 

[RedButterflySlut]

I'm flattered that you used my poem to analyse, but I'm unsure that any of the poems I've posted are up for the task. -lol- I've been writing those poems just to write them. I used to write poems that were structured for critique and even contests, these are just for fun.
That said, I'll explain my line of thought when I wrote it.

Why I said 'dark brunette'- brunette can encompass a variety of colors of brown, from rather light to extremely dark. 'Dark' hair can imply black. Dark brunette is a very specific hair color, and it stood out in my mind vividly. It wasn't just the way her hair swung, it was the rich color that infatuated me.

Anyway I'm blathering, as usual, and will likely blather on more later. How do you all think about image, construct images? Do you consciously think about what you want a particular image to convey, or are you more or less just winging it?

It's a bit of both for me. My intuition is a better poet than my logical brain ever will be, but if I let my intuition run wild my poetry becomes just a running mass of imagery and an orgy of the senses. Sounds pretty, but makes very little sense. I try to combine the two elements, and not let either one of them take too much control.

 

[Tzara]

I'm flattered that you used my poem to analyse, but I'm unsure that any of the poems I've posted are up for the task. -lol- I've been writing those poems just to write them. I used to write poems that were structured for critique and even contests, these are just for fun.
That said, I'll explain my line of thought when I wrote it.

Sorry. I'm just using your line as example because I liked it and it led well into something I wanted to talk about. My assumption is that if you post on the forum, you are open to comments.

Wherever they might lead.

Why I said 'dark brunette'- brunette can encompass a variety of colors of brown, from rather light to extremely dark. 'Dark' hair can imply black. Dark brunette is a very specific hair color, and it stood out in my mind vividly. It wasn't just the way her hair swung, it was the rich color that infatuated me.

Yes, of course, to all that. But to me, none of that detail is relevant. I did not have your experience. You do not make the hair color relevant to me in your poem, though of course you could, but that would be a different structure to the poem. I'd actually write the line Her ponytail swung like a hypnotist's watch with no reference to color altogether.


Just me, of course. I am not you and do not know what you are trying to convey in your poem. Did love that line, though. For reasons cited.

 

[butters]

imagery is key to my enjoying a poem, because when they're done well they have that ability to convey an emotional dimension requiring no extra words. i prefer to be allowed to experience sensations via imagery to being told what the emotion is - the subtlety makes for better poetry imo.

the BEST sort of poetry for this reader is where i find i am sort of absorbing the words but not seeing them, only the images that they unleash which, in turn, trigger some emotional response.

my own lack of discipline tends to mean i write what arrives, then polish it afterwards. if i try to 'think out' a poem before i write it, i might be able to do it but i don't feel connected to it and that feels sort of like cheating. it becomes a head poem only, with no emotional input from me. however, that's not to say stuff i've written that way will not find readers who enjoy it - they bring to the table, and make something better of it than it was alone.

 

[Tzara]

my own lack of discipline tends to mean i write what arrives, then polish it afterwards.

I think this is how most poets usually operate--refining the language to better present an image, or even discarding a draft image in favor of a better, richer one. I oftentimes start editing before I've even really written a whole draft. I start with some germ of an idea--a line, perhaps, or strophe, or just a concept--and try to twist that around into something. Doesn't always work, of course. Doesn't usually work.

It ends up being more like a painter who periodically scrapes all the paint off an unfinished canvas and starts over than a sculptor who better choose wisely the first time around, as once you've chiseled away stone, you can't put it back.

 

[butters]

I think this is how most poets usually operate--refining the language to better present an image, or even discarding a draft image in favor of a better, richer one. I oftentimes start editing before I've even really written a whole draft. I start with some germ of an idea--a line, perhaps, or strophe, or just a concept--and try to twist that around into something. Doesn't always work, of course. Doesn't usually work.

It ends up being more like a painter who periodically scrapes all the paint off an unfinished canvas and starts over than a sculptor who better choose wisely the first time around, as once you've chiseled away stone, you can't put it back.

the scraped canvas tells a story all its own
of imprints left
clogged pores that never breathe again
left-handed sweeps of anger or disgust
ridges
smears
that remain to skew perspective
despite being dressed anew
that throw odd shadows
no matter how good the light

 

[bronzeage]

When poets battle words,
leave thin simile in the tents
and arm me in metaphor.
Lines will taunt images
which can claim only slight likeness,
but tremble at the image made alive,
held to the anvil and hammered
square and round again,
tempered in oil and polished smooth,
saving simile to remark
"like nothing heard before."

 

[champagne1982]

PG's latest offering in the 5 senses challenge thread offers "fatigue sighs from my shoes". This gives me such a complete impression of exhaustion without even seeing a person, just a pair of old shoes. LOVE IT!

 

[Tzara]

PG's latest offering in the 5 senses challenge thread offers "fatigue sighs from my shoes". This gives me such a complete impression of exhaustion without even seeing a person, just a pair of old shoes. LOVE IT!

It's a nice example of using an active verb as part of an image, and using a word that evokes a sense other than vision.

I spend way too much time on visual images and metaphors than I should. I like Neo's 5 Senses challenge because I have to at least think about using some non-visual words in the poem.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Thanks Champ. I am really enjoying the images I've been reading in 30/30, too. I love how novel Micah's poems are. They are Max Ernst in skill and scope sometimes. In fact, I think Micah needs a Max Ernst avatar. Check this out:

Concrete bats back at the low-hanging clouds.
The radio ticks off more sepia.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

When does a poem become overly burdened by image? Does that ever happen for you? I think my early writing was way overwritten. Lately I have been trying to focus on narrative voice, but it is absolutely true that image is what brings me in to a poem.

 

[Tzara]

When does a poem become overly burdened by image? Does that ever happen for you? I think my early writing was way overwritten. Lately I have been trying to focus on narrative voice, but it is absolutely true that image is what brings me in to a poem.

I think particular images can be overworked. I have an unfortunate tendency to latch onto a particular metaphor or simile and beat the poor thing so hard that it loses whatever freshness it originally had.

I also think that some poems (again, mine, as well as other's) can be too focused on image to the neglect of theme--kind of all surface flash and no substance.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

On the issue of "to the neglect of theme" I am also interested, lately, in the focus of theme. I love it when an idea is focused on the personal and then becomes wide-lensed to the public arena or vice versa. When image facilitates that, it is even better.

 

[bogusagain]

I think the lack of theme (or am I really saying narrative? Maybe a bit of both) is why poetry has so diminished in popularity over the last 100 years. Just before modernism queues would form outside shops for newly released poetry books by top poets. Now most poets are v-e-r-y big fish in v-e-r-y small ponds and are lucky to sell more than 300 copies of a book, which means beyond their friends, extended family and critics etc, they sell barely a book. I'm not blaming modernism, the world changed a great deal after WWI.

I am a sucker for imagery but I do think over reliance on imagery to all else is self defeating. I don't know if you have the saying in America 'all mouth and no trousers' but that sums up an over reliance on imagery to me.

 

[bronzeage]

I think the lack of theme (or am I really saying narrative? Maybe a bit of both) is why poetry has so diminished in popularity over the last 100 years. Just before modernism queues would form outside shops for newly released poetry books by top poets. Now most poets are v-e-r-y big fish in v-e-r-y small ponds and are lucky to sell more than 300 copies of a book, which means beyond their friends, extended family and critics etc, they sell barely a book. I'm not blaming modernism, the world changed a great deal after WWI.

I am a sucker for imagery but I do think over reliance on imagery to all else is self defeating. I don't know if you have the saying in America 'all mouth and no trousers' but that sums up an over reliance on imagery to me.

Poets are fish in a pond where all the other fish are poets.

Poetry is just a casualty of the age of moving pictures. It's not the only casualty. Before moving pictures, television and all it's video children, reading for pleasure was the most common solitary diversion. Newsstands and bookstores were filled with pulp fiction magazines. Except for the surviving comic books, none exist today.

The audience for poetry, as leisure reading is now limited to other poets. It's as if Steven King wrote a book and the only people who bought a copy were Tom Clancy and Rosemary Rogers.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

I have not heard it, but by God, we should!! I love this saying.

I don't know if you have the saying in America 'all mouth and no trousers' but that sums up an over reliance on imagery to me.

 

[Tzara]

I think the lack of theme (or am I really saying narrative? Maybe a bit of both) is why poetry has so diminished in popularity over the last 100 years. Just before modernism queues would form outside shops for newly released poetry books by top poets. Now most poets are v-e-r-y big fish in v-e-r-y small ponds and are lucky to sell more than 300 copies of a book, which means beyond their friends, extended family and critics etc, they sell barely a book. I'm not blaming modernism, the world changed a great deal after WWI.

I am a sucker for imagery but I do think over reliance on imagery to all else is self defeating. I don't know if you have the saying in America 'all mouth and no trousers' but that sums up an over reliance on imagery to me.

I came across an interesting publisher a while back. They do a lot of poetry and are a for-profit business, but state quite clearly that they expect to sell 250 copies of a book in the first year and at least 12 copies each following year or they'll take the book out of print. When you submit a manuscript to them, they want you to tell them how you (the author) will personally promote sales of the book (e.g., how many readings you do in a year). If you don't give a very satisfactory answer to that question, they won't publish you.

 

[bogusagain]

I came across an interesting publisher a while back. They do a lot of poetry and are a for-profit business, but state quite clearly that they expect to sell 250 copies of a book in the first year and at least 12 copies each following year or they'll take the book out of print. When you submit a manuscript to them, they want you to tell them how you (the author) will personally promote sales of the book (e.g., how many readings you do in a year). If you don't give a very satisfactory answer to that question, they won't publish you.

Being hard headed makes sense. Personally I think a little reality and hard headedness makes for better work, it stops poets navel gazings and makes them think of a potential readership, which I think is no bad thing.

What shocked me a while back was reading an article in the British newspaper The Guardian a year or so ago where they said Seamus Heaney accounted for 80% of all poetry books bought in Britain and most top poets only sold 300 copies (where I got my figures from). Though there are actually no official figures. In the 60s, the Mersey poets Adrian Henri, Roger McGough and brian Pattern sold thousands, comparable with the sales of novels but they were dismissed by many top poets (academic ones) as not real poets. Meaning they were populist I think.

 

[Tzara]

Being hard headed makes sense. Personally I think a little reality and hard headedness makes for better work, it stops poets navel gazings and makes them think of a potential readership, which I think is no bad thing.

If there is anything that is bad about poetry MFA programs, it's that they seem to focus on technique rather than content. I'm not sure how they could do otherwise, since I don't know any way one can infuse inspiration or genius into a writing student and I think it probable that students, even not particularly talented students, can be taught technique, but it is one of the weaknesses of contemporary poetry. You have the same problem in literary fiction, though--work that is well-crafted but not really about anything.

What shocked me a while back was reading an article in the British newspaper The Guardian a year or so ago where they said Seamus Heaney accounted for 80% of all poetry books bought in Britain and most top poets only sold 300 copies (where I got my figures from). Though there are actually no official figures. In the 60s, the Mersey poets Adrian Henri, Roger McGough and brian Pattern sold thousands, comparable with the sales of novels but they were dismissed by many top poets (academic ones) as not real poets. Meaning they were populist I think.

One of the top-selling poets in the USA, Billy Collins, is thought of as second-rate by much of the academic establishment, even though he is himself a professor at the City University of New York. Part of this may be his popularity, but I think it's also that he writes about everyday kinds of experiences instead of the grandiose arty subjects that so many contemporary poets address.

Poetry doesn't pay, though, as this article shows.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

The sure sign that the article should have been better edited?

Estimated poetry M.F.A.’s

Why the hell would you need an apostrophe there?

 

[bogusagain]

One of the top-selling poets in the USA, Billy Collins, is thought of as second-rate by much of the academic establishment, even though he is himself a professor at the City University of New York. Part of this may be his popularity, but I think it's also that he writes about everyday kinds of experiences instead of the grandiose arty subjects that so many contemporary poets address.

Poetry doesn't pay, though, as this article shows.

Ah Billy Collins. Ange started a thread once called Billy for Bogus because I said I didn't like him. Though I think that was more to do with the person who introduced him to me than Billy Collins himself. I must admit my prejudice against him has diminished as the offending relationship receded into the past and I do quite like him now and I certainly wouldn't dismiss him though he is still not up there with my favourites but I enjoy him as a relaxing read. And anyway, it's not his fault my relationships can be somewhat chaotic.

 

[Tzara]

The sure sign that the article should have been better edited?

Estimated poetry M.F.A.’s​

Why the hell would you need an apostrophe there?

I know it looks odd, but that is consistent with item 6.10 in my copy of The Chicago Manual of Style:

Abbreviations with period, lowercase letters used as nouns, and capital letters that would be confusing if s alone were added form the plural with an apostrophe and an s.​

One of the examples given is M.A.'s and Ph.D.'s.

I presume if the periods were left out, it would have been MFAs. Probably the house style is to include periods. That seems to be the Chicago Manual preference, though I couldn't find a specific rule about it. I tend to leave the periods out because that is APA style and I was a psychology major.

 

[corndog_]

I'm not sure the old "poetry is only read by poets" adage holds. It is a little like saying that, since everyone sings along with the radio once in awhile, music is only enjoyed by musicians.

I think, rather, that the (admittedly small) population of folks that enjoy poetry invariably try their hands at writing some. Who can blame us? We all like to think there is an artist inside us. Mine is 6'4", square jawed with piercing blue eyes and hung like a horse.

 

[champagne1982]

I'm not sure the old "poetry is only read by poets" adage holds. It is a little like saying that, since everyone sings along with the radio once in awhile, music is only enjoyed by musicians.

I think, rather, that the (admittedly small) population of folks that enjoy poetry invariably try their hands at writing some. Who can blame us? We all like to think there is an artist inside us. Mine is 6'4", square jawed with piercing blue eyes and hung like a horse.

Oh you clever stallion... I had no idea you stand 16 hands high at the withers. Saddle up, pony boy and giddy up.

 

[corndog_]

But I'm very prone to performance anxiety. If I don't finish i get shot.