If a little kidnapping & drug torture can protect Freedom...

[shereads]

People get so nasty when you kidnap them by accident, dose them with drugs and hold them for a few months. This one is suing us. The ingratitude! It's as if we were the terrorists, and not the ones protecting everybody.

Many Words, Little Clarity From Rice

By Eugene Robinson
Friday, December 9, 2005

[excerpt]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel believed she had heard Rice admit that the United States made a "mistake" when it sent one of the CIA's ninja-style squads to kidnap Khaled Masri, a German citizen whose only crime was that his name sounds like that of some suspected terrorist. Rice's people say Merkel misunderstood; Rice merely acknowledged that unspecified mistakes might have been made.

Masri says he was vacationing in Macedonia on New Year's Eve 2003 when local authorities arrested him and handed him over to the Americans. Five months later, long after it was clear this was a case of mistaken identity, he was released on a lonely hill in Albania.

We know the details of Masri's case, or at least his version of events, because earlier this week he filed suit in U.S. District Court in Alexandria against the CIA, former director George Tenet, the operators of the CIA-front air transport firm that flew him from Macedonia to a prison in Afghanistan, and the "John Doe" ninjas who kidnapped him.

Here is the lawsuit's account of the moment when, after Masri had been stripped naked, the CIA -- representing you and me and our great nation -- took him into custody:

"[He] saw seven or eight men dressed in black and wearing black ski masks. One of the men placed him in a diaper. . . . Mr. El-Masri was marched to a waiting plane, with the shackles cutting into his ankles. Once inside, he was thrown to the floor face down and his legs and arms were spread-eagled and secured to the sides of the plane. He felt an injection in his shoulder, and became lightheaded. He felt a second injection that rendered him nearly unconscious."

Well, what do you expect when you walk around with a name like El-Masri?

 

[SummerMorning]

Erm ... I think it's not a very good idea to have a long-term policy of kidnapping innocent people? I think it's going to backfire?

 

[NoJo]

The police shot a Brazilian dead in London because he looked a bit foreign and ran away when the (plain clothes) officers chased him, wielding guns.

I wouldn't let my foreign looking son walk home at night for a couple of weeks after that.

The family are taking the police to court

 

[Liar]

Erm ... I think it's not a very good idea to have a long-term policy of kidnapping innocent people? I think it's going to backfire?

More than the occational lawsuit, you mean?

Those will always be spun as individual cases of collateral damage, instead of an error in practice and policy. At the most, a field agent or two will be blamed. And then it's back to business as usual.

 

[SummerMorning]

More than the occational lawsuit, you mean?

Those will always be spun as individual cases of collateral damage, instead of an error in practice and policy. At the most, a field agent or two will be blamed. And then it's back to business as usual.

No, no ... not in a legal sense. It's called building up a store of resentment. It's called losing people who are willing to stand by and support you. In all honesty, America is starting to appear quite ... hostile.

But, it wasn't me who said that when a great power has to start relying on guns for its power it means that it's time is coming to an end.

 

[Stella_Omega]

No, no ... not in a legal sense. It's called building up a store of resentment. It's called losing people who are willing to stand by and support you. In all honesty, America is starting to appear quite ... hostile.

But, it wasn't me who said that when a great power has to start relying on guns for its power it means that it's time is coming to an end.

Just now- just NOW- starting to appear hostile? You are a mighty tolerant man, and well deserving of such a sunny name!

 

[shereads]

The police shot a Brazilian dead in London because he looked a bit foreign and ran away when the (plain clothes) officers chased him, wielding guns.

I wouldn't let my foreign looking son walk home at night for a couple of weeks after that.

The family are taking the police to court

I liked that British security company's choice of music for the video they made of themselves shooting at random Iraqi automobiles. I would never have thought to play vintage Elvis over scenes of random mayhem. But it totally works! I bet it sweeps Sundance this year.

Seriously, it's about time you Brits stepped forward to help with the War on Tolerance. The video is a start, but since the crew was under contract to an American firm we get partial credit.

----

Regarding the video, some spokeshead on CNN explained that there are so many civilian security personnel under contract in Iraq, "training is a problem."

Training? Shooting at civilians from a moving car, for laughs, is supposed to indicate a lack of training?

My take on all this torture/kidnapping/secret prisons crap is pretty much like my take on the Patriot Act: Whatever we're gaining, if anything, it's not worth what we're losing. I'd rather be killed by the bad guys than be the bad guys.

 

[amicus]

Ah, I see a number of the 'usual suspects' have all gathered for a communal group grope and daisy chain and are looking around for some cheese to go with their whine.

Like Democrats in disarray. Kennedy, Kerry, Pelosi, Howard Dean (the laughing stock, that one) our litte socialist apologizts here at the Lit forum, having no values and no plan for the future, as usual, revert to criticizing everything and anything that moves.

Since most here do not seem to be able to move into the abstract, let us stay in your back yard of personal subjectivism. Suppose, just suppose, that one of these terrorists has kidnapped your loved one, spouse, child, parent.

Let us further suppose that during the kidnapping, one of the terrorist stubbed his toe and was collected by an irate citizen.

Now...just how far would you go in interrogating that captured terrorist(from no nation), to gain information to perhaps save your loved one?

Or would you just invite him for whine and cheese?


amicus...

 

[Guest]

Ah, I see a number of the 'usual suspects' have all gathered for a communal group grope and daisy chain and are looking around for some cheese to go with their whine.

Like Democrats in disarray. Kennedy, Kerry, Pelosi, Howard Dean (the laughing stock, that one) our litte socialist apologizts here at the Lit forum, having no values and no plan for the future, as usual, revert to criticizing everything and anything that moves.

Since most here do not seem to be able to move into the abstract, let us stay in your back yard of personal subjectivism. Suppose, just suppose, that one of these terrorists has kidnapped your loved one, spouse, child, parent.

Let us further suppose that during the kidnapping, one of the terrorist stubbed his toe and was collected by an irate citizen.

Now...just how far would you go in interrogating that captured terrorist(from no nation), to gain information to perhaps save your loved one?

Or would you just invite him for whine and cheese?


amicus...

Evenin', ami.

Want some Gouda?

 

[shereads]

Ah, I see a number of the 'usual suspects' have all gathered for a communal group grope and daisy chain and are looking around for some cheese to go with their whine.

Like Democrats in disarray. Kennedy, Kerry, Pelosi, Howard Dean (the laughing stock, that one) our litte socialist apologizts here at the Lit forum, having no values and no plan for the future, as usual, revert to criticizing everything and anything that moves.

Since most here do not seem to be able to move into the abstract, let us stay in your back yard of personal subjectivism. Suppose, just suppose, that one of these terrorists has kidnapped your loved one, spouse, child, parent.

Let us further suppose that during the kidnapping, one of the terrorist stubbed his toe and was collected by an irate citizen.

Now...just how far would you go in interrogating that captured terrorist(from no nation), to gain information to perhaps save your loved one?

Or would you just invite him for whine and cheese?


amicus...

Amicus Logic: Goons in masks kidnap someone you love, fly him to a country where no one will question their special methods, deny him the opportunity to contact anyone who might prove he's who he claims to be, keep him in a cell for five months, and eventually find out he's not their man, after which they dump him in Albania. If the goons were CIA, you have nothing to complain about. If they were terrorists, get mad.

 

[zeb1094]

Amicus Logic: Goons in masks kidnap someone you love, fly him to a country where no one will question their special methods, deny him the opportunity to contact anyone who might prove he's who he claims to be, keep him in a cell for five months, and eventually find out he's not their man, after which they dump him in Albania. If the goons were CIA, you have nothing to complain about. If they were terrorists, get mad.

At least they(we) didn't kill him and dump the body in the middle of some desert. If it was the terroists that's what would have happened and everyone knows it to be true.

 

[amicus]

SheReads...SweetSubsarah....you know you want me...bring some Gouda and some Foulle' Pousse' too.

As you well know, the President of the United States, the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of State has all stated in public that the law does not permit the United States to use 'torture' as a tool of interrogation.

Such laws also exist under the Geneva Convention in terms of prisoners of war, both military and civilian.

But Islamic terrorists are not beholden to any one specific nation. They are radicals from many nations. A question for you to ponder is, just what rights do these terrorists possess?

Another question is just how either the United States or Great Britain should deal with captured terrorists. They are not technically 'prisoners of war' under the auspices of the Geneva Convention as they belong to no national armed forces.

There is no codified law existing to give direction to the incarceration and interrogation of these criminals.

They cannot be given justice in this country as they possess no rights here or in England. They have no allegiance to whatever country they came from, thus cannot be brought to justice there.

Where? And under what circumstances? And how should they be treated if the slimmest possibility exists that one may know the location and time table of a nuclear device installed in London or Paris or Boston?

Although I doubt either of you will rise to the occasion, beyond your hatred of Bush and all things American, there is an objective problem in how to deal legally with foreign terrorists.

The poor fellow you mentioned was a mistake, there are often mistakes made, even in the best of justice systems. Even in the United States with all rights and due process afforded, innocent men spend years in prison, and that is sad.

However...your input on how to solve this problem of prosecuting terrorists will be welcome.


amicus....

 

[Boxlicker101]

I saw a news item on TV a while ago about a man who was released from prison after serving 23 years for a crime (rape) he did not commit. He just had the bad luck to look a lot like the actual criminal. The German you are referring to was also unlucky. Shit happens.

 

[amicus]

Yes, shit happens....


amicus...

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Amicus Logic: Goons in masks kidnap someone you love, fly him to a country where no one will question their special methods, deny him the opportunity to contact anyone who might prove he's who he claims to be, keep him in a cell for five months, and eventually find out he's not their man, after which they dump him in Albania. If the goons were CIA, you have nothing to complain about. If they were terrorists, get mad.

I read in a book about terrorism and media that "if a third world country drops a bomb on a town, killing lots of people, that's terrorism. If USA does it, it's military strategic action."

It all depends on who's doing the reporting.

 

[shereads]

At least they(we) didn't kill him and dump the body in the middle of some desert. If it was the terroists that's what would have happened and everyone knows it to be true.

You're right. We're the good guys.

 

[amicus]

I read in a book about terrorism and media that "if a third world country drops a bomb on a town, killing lots of people, that's terrorism. If USA does it, it's military strategic action."

It all depends on who's doing the reporting.

You know...I know...realize...it's difficult to comprehend that there is but one super power in the world...you also know 'we' do our best to exercise that power in such a way as to protect ourselves and those we are allied with.

Svenskaflicka....if you are native...once upon a time the 'Dutch' were superpowers and your history is somewhat less than illustrious.

We took a hit. We are pissed. We have the means. Most of Europe, you included, respond like feral animals, you present your genitals to be fucked into submission.

We do not.

You don't like us. Thas okay. You don't matter.

Do ur tulips & bulbs and acquiesce to the 'Kyoto' brigade and the green world and savor your past as with your current attitude, there is nothing else left for you.

With any other motive than trying to bring freedom and liberty to people around the world, with any other motive than attempting to secure our own existence and that of our allies; with any other motive, such as Stalin, Hitler, or Mao, we could just nuke them into the stone age.

But we don't.

Why?

Think about it. We really could.

amicus...

 

[rgraham666]

Somewhere, Satan is laughing.

He's been using the same trick for thousands of years. Convincing us that if they do it, they are the epitome of evil. If we do it, it's an unpleasant necessity bought on by the need to fight that evil.

We've never caught on.

There's nothing a con man likes more than a mark who can't learn.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Nixon complained that he wouldn't let the US be turned into a "pitiful, helpless giant," but now that's what we've become.

Bush talked about how we wouldn't let the terrorists affect our lives, but that's exactly what's happened. The United States had become an enraged and frightened child, scared out of its wits by a handful of bearded maniacs.

You can call it what you want but that's what it is: abject fear, and that's why it's so loathesome to see.

 

[impressive]

Amicus Logic: Goons in masks kidnap someone you love, fly him to a country where no one will question their special methods, deny him the opportunity to contact anyone who might prove he's who he claims to be, keep him in a cell for five months, and eventually find out he's not their man, after which they dump him in Albania. If the goons were CIA, you have nothing to complain about. If they were terrorists, get mad.

Thank you for explaining that ... 'cause I was just about to post a "WTF is your point?" query.

 

[Liar]

I saw a news item on TV a while ago about a man who was released from prison after serving 23 years for a crime (rape) he did not commit. He just had the bad luck to look a lot like the actual criminal. The German you are referring to was also unlucky. Shit happens.

Of course it's a case of shit that happened.

And both are entirely entitled to raise hell about it and demand some kind of justice on an individual level. The question is, does those two cases indacate that there is something wrong with the routines? I don't know about the case you mentioned, but said German had, according to what I've read about him, been easy to indentify as the wrong guy, if he had been listened to and his background checked up.

 

[cantdog]

I saw a news item on TV a while ago about a man who was released from prison after serving 23 years for a crime (rape) he did not commit. He just had the bad luck to look a lot like the actual criminal. The German you are referring to was also unlucky. Shit happens.

I've seen investigative reports of the initial bust at the Macedonian border. It had little to do with what he looked like. The confusion was his name. His name is very similar to that of a contact with one of the actual 9/11 suspects.

Al-Masri.

It means "the Egyptian." "The guy from Egypt." There are a lot of people from Egypt, really.

 

[cantdog]

and another thing

In the interest of accuracy, the drugs they used to bundle the naked, blindfolded al-Masri onto the plane were not "drug torture." They were sedatives to make the journey smooth.

There was drug torture, but that came later. In the country he was sent to, Afghanistan. He describes the effects. It sounds like Narcan or something similar, sometimes. Narcan is used to neutralize narcotics. They give it to people who have overdosed. Unfortunately, however, it neutralizes endorphins, as well.

They seem to have used other drugs to prevent sleep, and yet others to disinhibit his testimony.

But the ones in the Skopje airport were just to "put him down" for the duration of the ride to Afghanistan.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Shit happens? Shit happens???

An innocent man is kidnapped, drugged, and held prisoner for months, without being allowed to speak for himself, and all you can say is "shit happens"?????????

This reminds me why I have boxlicker on Ignore...

 

[cantdog]

Of course it's a case of shit that happened.

And both are entirely entitled to raise hell about it and demand some kind of justice on an individual level. The question is, does those two cases indacate that there is something wrong with the routines? I don't know about the case you mentioned, but said German had, according to what I've read about him, been easy to indentify as the wrong guy, if he had been listened to and his background checked up.

Which, to be fair, they ultimately did, after a couple months in Afghanistan and three weeks incommunicado in Macedonia.

The objects of the suit are still frantically denying that the routines exist. If it gets to a court (al-Masri was turned back at the border when he tried to come here to attend the hearing, in a sort of bizarre replay of the original mixup at Macedonia-- it was his name) that denial will be very difficult to make stand. More and more evidence is building up that the routines do in fact exist. Making a mistake in an illegal routine (and there are three now who've been in the press, who were 'rendered' and got back loose again) does give away the illegal routine.

On the upside, Dr. Rice has said that the U.S. "respects international law." This is the very first time I've seen anyone from this administration actually make a claim like that.