I try to be tolerant, but........

[Wildcard Ky]

I'm really having a difficult time of it lately with the whole "Islam is a religion of peace" discussion.

Now there's a $1 million dollar bounty on the head of the cartoonist that drew the now infamous cartoon. Let's not forget the bounty on Salmon Rushdies head after he released his book.

People of all nationalities all over the world have been killed in riots over this cartoon. How can this be a religion of peace if they're willing to kill over a cartoon? I'm sure that there are many fine and peaceful people in the Islamic faith, but with this much violence spread across the globe, I can't help but wonder about the core of the religion itself. It doesn't seem to be an isolated incident here and there that can be blamed on a few extremists to me. It almost seems to be the mindset of the religion as a whole, while the peaceful people are the ones that are the minority.

There doesn't seem to be the same hatred among the muslims in the US. It makes me wonder if there's a conscious effort among the peaceful people of Muslim faith to come to this country to escape their fanatical peers in other places.

Am I alone is these lines of thought?

Here's an article that sums up recent violence against the cartoon.

Indy Star

 

[3113]

People of all nationalities all over the world have been killed in riots over this cartoon.

I have a magnet on my frige that pretty much says it all:

"I've nothing aginst God, it's his fan club I can't stand."

The religion and the fan club are two different things. Let's keep in mind, Christianity is a religion of peace, too. That hasn't stopped it's fan club from torturing, burning, killing and forcably converting people.

Hypocrisy's going to happen in any "fan club" which INSISTS that the words of God or Prophet be taken literally--except when THEY chose to re-interpet them.

 

[oggbashan]

Perhaps some of them feel it is tit for tat after the pack of cards issued when Iraq was invaded.

What is the bounty on the Al Queda leaders?

Christianity has not had clean hands in the past. At one time excommunication meant that the person excommunicated could be starved to death or even killed outright without breaking the law of the Church. Before then, anyone declared 'nithing' or outlaw was fair game.

Any idiot can announce a bounty on the head of anyone. There is no shortage of idiots, Muslim, Christian or neither.

Og

 

[rgraham666]

Should I hate all Christians for the KKK, the Inquisition, The Thirty Years War, The Crusades, what they did to cloudy's people?

Should I hate all Hindus for the nasty things some of them do to Muslims and Buddhists?

Should I hate all Buddhists for inventing the suicide bomber?

As the Aga Khan stated recently, "This isn't a clash of cultures, it's a clash of ignorance."

 

[Liar]

It doesn't seem to be an isolated incident here and there that can be blamed on a few extremists to me.

In this day and age, "isolated incidents" doesn't look the way they did in the good old days. "Worldwide" is a moot point,

It almost seems to be the mindset of the religion as a whole, while the peaceful people are the ones that are the minority.

Why, because they don't show up on TV as much?

There doesn't seem to be the same hatred among the muslims in the US. It makes me wonder if there's a conscious effort among the peaceful people of Muslim faith to come to this country to escape their fanatical peers in other places.

Possibly. More probably because many muslims come from places run by murderous and oppressive regimes. Most muslims here are kurds. Guess what they ran from? Oppression from the secular Iraq or oppression from the secular Turkey.

Am I alone is these lines of thought?

Sadly, no.




I'm intolerant as fuck towards the actual extremists, though. May they suffer eternal constipation.

 

[3113]

Should I hate all Christians for the KKK, the Inquisition, The Thirty Years War, The Crusades, what they did to cloudy's people?

Oh, oh! (waving hand!) I know the answer! I know the answer!

 

[Guest]

Oh, oh! (waving hand!) I know the answer! I know the answer!

I'll only call on students who are quiet . . .

 

[3113]

I'll only call on students who are quiet . . .

(mutter) Stupid, ninja teacher

 

[Guest]

(mutter) Stupid, ninja teacher

Walks by noisy student, yanks hair back hard and peers into startled eyes.


"Would you mind repeating that?"

 

[zeb1094]

Walks by noisy student, yanks hair back hard and peers into startled eyes.


"Would you mind repeating that?"

Now, now Sarrah, try and be tolerant!

 

[3113]

Walks by noisy student, yanks hair back hard and peers into startled eyes.


"Would you mind repeating that?"

Er...no...I don't think so

 

[Guest]

Now, now Sarrah, try and be tolerant!

I'm never tolerant of rude behavior.



Wildcard, I hear what you are saying.

Personally I'm very frustrated with the anger, the violence, the death threats and the destruction that have been caused by what I feel is a simple cartoon.

But I do not understand the culture. I haven't lived it, haven't studied it, and even though I feel this is a bit ridiculous they obviously do not.

Then again, some cultures may be most amused by the transubstantiation ritual of the wine and wafers in Christian communion.

So who is to say? I just know that there continue to be people ridiculed, abused, tortured or killed in the name of religion. Many religions.

 

[Guest]

Er...no...I don't think so

Smiles sweetly.

Thank you. Would you read the next selection, please?

 

[oggbashan]

I think that bounties have been posted by some group or other on:

President Bush
Prime Minister Blair
Any US Congressman or Senator
Any UK Member of Parliament (except George Galloway)
Prime Ministers of states who supported the invasion of Iraq or the peacekeeping afterwards
Any US or UK or Allied member of the armed forces
Any civilian contractor supplying the armed forces
Any Iraqi who enlists in the reformed Iraqi army or police forces
Any member of the Iraqi parliament
The prosecuting AND defence lawyers at Saddam Hussein's trial
Anyone who collaborates with any of the above
Any security contractors working in Iraq
etc.

One more?

Claiming the bounty might be problematic.

Og

 

[zeb1094]

I'm never tolerant of rude behavior.



Wildcard, I hear what you are saying.

Personally I'm very frustrated with the anger, the violence, the death threats and the destruction that have been caused by what I feel is a simple cartoon.

But I do not understand the culture. I haven't lived it, haven't studied it, and even though I feel this is a bit ridiculous they obviously do not.

Then again, some cultures may be most amused by the transubstantiation ritual of the wine and wafers in Christian communion.

So who is to say? I just know that there continue to be people ridiculed, abused, tortured or killed in the name of religion. Many religions.

The culture is that of the eleventh century, it never progressed into the present except to utilize modern weapon to reine terror on the infidels.

And I will have to say that not all, as KY has, of that culture have stopped progressing but most likely many have.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

But the difference is in being allowed to publicly make that bounty.

If you or I were to offer a bounty on someone, our governments would do something about it. At a minimum we would be scorned and harassed by our governments. If they thought we were serious enough about the bounty, they'd find a reason to arrest us.

Over there, the governments seem to not only condone such behavior, they sometimes are the sponsors. Was it not the Shah of Iran that offered the bounty on Rushdie?

 

[oggbashan]

Over there, the governments seem to not only condone such behavior, they sometimes are the sponsors. Was it not the Shah of Iran that offered the bounty on Rushdie?

No. It was placed after a fatwa issued by the Ayatollah Khomeni, and that was after the Shah had been deposed. The Shah was an ally of the US.

Og

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

It's ludicrous but death threats against cartoonists is no new thing.

Ted Rall gets his share of death threats from right wing Christ rapists, nearly every newspaper cartoonist who draws something not in line with some grandma's view of what "the children can handle" gets threatening letters towards his moral character, his job, and occassionally life.

Nonetheless, this cartoonist is living the ultimate in free press for it. Getting riots for something you drew. That is connection, that is press a cartoonist only usually gets after dying after a long career of producing award winning work. It is quite impressive.

And yes, extremists are hilarious. Their tiny hard-wired wrath-filled brains are unable to cope with the existence of any other viewpoint than their own, any other lifestyle than their own. They, like all extremists, are doing far more damage to their cause than the object of their attack. By attacking a cartoon, like attacking two words, it shines poorly on their character and makes the religion as a whole look worse. Religion is being corrupted. People have lost what the books say for what they want them to say, for what they've been forced into and believe through hate alone.

Those who do these acts are not real members of their religion. They are imposters who threaten the religion as a whole. It would be nice if someday the real practicioners of religions everywhere stood up for what their books really said, what their prophets and gods really commanded. It'd be a different world surely.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

No. It was placed after a fatwa issued by the Ayatollah Khomeni, and that was after the Shah had been deposed. The Shah was an ally of the US.

Og

You're right. I knew it was the Ayatollah. I don't know why I said Shah. It was still government sponsored bounty though.

 

[English Lady]

I have a magnet on my frige that pretty much says it all:

"I've nothing aginst God, it's his fan club I can't stand."

The religion and the fan club are two different things. Let's keep in mind, Christianity is a religion of peace, too. That hasn't stopped it's fan club from torturing, burning, killing and forcably converting people.

Hypocrisy's going to happen in any "fan club" which INSISTS that the words of God or Prophet be taken literally--except when THEY chose to re-interpet them.

Oooh, ohhh I want one of those magnets.

A guy where I used to live had the coolest T-shirt ever.

"Lord, please save me from your followers!"

 

[chris 44]

Can someone explain to me why, particularly in Iraq, it seems that the majority of deaths are caused by problems between one Muslim group against another. To some extent I can understand the motivation of killing your own people when they're working for the 'infidel', but what is the motivation behind killing other Muslims just because they're from a different sect ? Where in the Koran did the prophet order that?

 

[Liar]

Those who do these acts are not real members of their religion. They are imposters who threaten the religion as a whole. It would be nice if someday the real practicioners of religions everywhere stood up for what their books really said, what their prophets and gods really commanded. It'd be a different world surely.

Yep, but as I've pointed out... One of the things that gods and prophets of most religions really commands, Islam included, is that you should be humble, mind your own sins, and not try to be the world's conscience, like the extremists do. That's hubris, wallowing in self-importance and a self-image of perfection, getting seduced by power and ambition. Which is, drumroll please, a major sin.

So the truly faithful, the silent majority, will sadly not speak up and tell the loonies to put a sock in it. At least not in the numbers that would make a difference.

 

[Guest]

Yep, but as I've pointed out... One of the things that gods and prophets of most religions really commands, Islam included, is that you should be humble, mind your own sins, and not try to be the world's conscience, like the extremists do. That's hubris, wallowing in self-importance and a self-image of perfection, getting seduced by power and ambition. Which is, drumroll please, a major sin.

So the truly faithful, the silent majority, will sadly not speak up and tell the loonies to put a sock in it. At least not in the numbers that would make a difference.

Wow.

That's disturbingly like the far-right moral "majority" in the United States.

 

[Liar]

Wow.

That's disturbingly like the far-right moral "majority" in the United States.

No surprise there. Loud people makes the most noise. Yahoos are almost by definition loud.

 

[Guest]

No surprise there. Loud people makes the most noise. Yahoos are almost by definition loud.

As well as the passive sheep allowing it all to happen.