I think we're turning Japanese ... Tea House of the Rising Sin

MadamaMiniTopic

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I think we're turning Japanese ...

~ :rose: Madama respectfully requests you remove your shoes before entering this Thread Dojo. :rose: ~

~ :rose: Madama wishes to credit Miss Intothewoods for her enthusiasm in regards to the potential of this topic :rose: ~


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Rediscovering and Modernizing The Geisha : New Submissive Perspectives In Contemporary BDSM

The geisha is a potential site for exploration and experimentation in the world of BDSM today. As the world undergoes a shrinkage, globalization allows cultural crossovers; this not only pervades into the economic world, it also diversifies sensual experience. Currently, the majority of "roles" that submissives play are of Western conception and development. Let us go then, you and I (ooops, shades of Eliot), go through a brief range of some mainstream submissive stereotypes. There is the repentant, who undergoes redemption under pain. The one who misbehaves intentionally in order to invite discipline - a discipline that is associated with sexual pleasure. The passive one lets the other party take full control in all aspects. There are numerous types.

Shy, bold, sensuous, chaste, blatant, secretive - there is a whole gamut of classifications we can ascribe to submissive individuals. Often, these subscriptions shift, altering and developing the sub as he/she matures and learns. Sometimes, too, they remain constant to a particular image as every individual finds an apt image and aligns herself with it (I will use the female gender in place, as a collective for ALL subs)

There is no need to return to the issues of the power exchange, yet a reiteration is vital. The transfers of power in bdsm situations occur, ranging from casual contact (within a D/S context) to a slave collaring. It is a mark of trust, a rescinding of a submissive's right over the self up to a degree specified by mutual contract, be it written, verbal or silent, to the dominant.

This brings us to the concept of the geisha submissive. Cultural studies have indicated that the private, highly rigid yet highly exotic sorority is considered one of the most distinguishing characteristics of Japanese culture. Ethnic snobbery, though, is undercut by documentations of the existence of similar feminine roles of the kisaeng of Korea and the xiaoshu of China. The conception of a subculture of women comes from feudal times, this particular version unique to the Orient. The members of this sisterhood exist not only to serve men (as superiors), they also incorporate a regime of self-discipline into their lives.

The power transfer is symbolic in denoting and defining who is the sub, who is the dom. Feminism and individual rights are a way of life, most prominently in the West. The role of the geisha falls under attack as they lack the self-distinguishing features of such mainstream trends. However, the geisha invites a different discourse in the world of BDSM. After the power exchange, the geisha loses her authority, but experiences empowerment. She becomes elevated, as the fundamental decision to serve is made by her. (crappy sentence)

The aspect of taming, wooing, and consciously tempting does not exist on the geisha's part. She is meant to be seductive without seeming to be seductive. The most important aspect of geisha activities centre around serving and entertaining - cultural geishas sing, converse, etc. It should be noted that the traditional geisha did NOT have sex with their patrons. These other duties were reserved for the occupants of the brothels. As we transcend these roles into D/S, modifications are needed in order to fulfill certain connotative requirements. This is where the geisha undergoes modernization to accommodate both the needs of the dominant and the submissive.

Therefore, in this chosen lifestyle, geishas may be of any sex, serving any sex. Each D/S contract permits different levels of freedom for this, in terms of what to do, how far to go. BDSM is sexual in its roots, therefore the largest modification of a traditional feminine figure, of course, lies in the transfer from the realm of the social to the sexual. Sexual relations between the geisha and her dom/domme, therefore, are of vital importance to the operation of this role. However, this is not a constant necessity in a relationship as the primary function of a geisha is to serve, not to service.

The basis of this type of treatment towards the dominant lies in the submissive initiative. This is an area, which remains unexplored to its full potential, if not sadly neglected as well. A geisha's performance rises to its full potential in a serious, intense D/S relationship. Both parties share an unspoken bond in which one can almost second guess the other's thoughts. From association and gradual familiarity, she meets her Master's/Mistress' needs almost before He/She anticipates them.

In casual D/S play, however, this role is faced with many limits. A rapport is needed for personalized service. This does not deter from simple things, such as serving food, massages, etc etc. Feeding by hand is a particularly delightful experience for both the dom and sub. The approval that is given by the dom is unlike any other that has been given before, likewise, the approval received by the geisha is an experience in itself.

A geisha may be flirtatious or outspoken, but she is never assertive in sex. Taking charge is paradoxical to the connotations of her name. Blatant exposure, rough and ready antics have no place in this realm of sexual discourse. Instead, the geisha operates on a level of one that undresses with modesty, in fact, does everything with delicacy. We speak of silk screens, disrobing with blushes. This mood may be hard to emulate, but we are concerned with the role of the player, not the player itself. Pillowing is taken over by the dominant's initiative, hence, this aspect depends purely on his decision to copulate/ whatever.

Sadomasochism does not play a strong role in this type of relationship, although it can be added according to individual tastes. The emphasis faithfully remains on submissive service. There are many parts to this role that resists sexualization. But one must remember that BDSM is not only about sex. To be a good geisha does not take constant horniness, the crux of the role lies in constant self-discipline. The emulation of this role, too is impossible to achieve 24/7/365. There are too many constraints and demands from the outside world to permit constant exploration.

Geisha submission, therefore, is done through forays, experiments, not on a lifestyle basis. This paper confronts the tip of the iceberg, and hopefully "practical research" (har har) in this new submissive field will yield new discoveries.

Afternote: on the practicality of geishas. The best effect is achieved by role playing (on the sub's part) done gradually and in moderation. It is the subtlety of the role that is the engine of the consciousness of the power exchange, not immediate blatant role playing (which comes across as fake). For a more cultural taste, robes are difficult to find and expensive, so substitutes are a good choice. Sushi tastes as good as it looks (assuming you have no allergies to raw meat). Sake is an acquired taste.

This article was not written by me or Rebecca either for that matter. Apparently it was on file somewhere . No idea whom to give credit to nor do I endorse the ideas in the essay in totality . This is a Cafe Thread and the intention is to have fun as well as perhaps learn a few things. If nothing else an appreciation of Japanese culture.

Oh wait until Shankarasan & Neonsan see this woo hooo :kiss:

Hit that skin Taiko Drumming Thread Link ~ Shankara
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Oooooh, so much fun, I don't know where to start!

As to the modesty in the bedroom...kind of funny...I go through phases where I am feeling more, ahem, rambunctious, and then more shy, depending on a whole host of things. I am feeling quite shy at the moment, and was, er, imagining a whole lot of blushing in the context of, ahem, disrobing. :eek: We'll just leave it at that...

When it comes to service, I absolutely adore taking care of people in terms of food and entertainment. I am obsessive about presentation. I love the way Japanese food is presented, in particular - and the detail and care which goes into a dish. For example, shiso leaves with sashimi - they are decoration, but also enhance the sashimi when eaten together. Well, I suppose I am diverging from the geisha discussion.

Geishas serve food, and feed their hosts in a way that is diminutive, delicate, and so attentive. It's not just antithetical to current western culture in terms of gender roles. Who takes that much time to eat these days? Taking the time to serve a meal in that way to your PYL would be so attentive and loving, not to mention erotic. :devil:

More later...I'm just off in daydream land...
 
Interesting concept. I can neither be shy or delicate in the bedroom but I would love the chance to serve my Master's meal with total dedication and attentiveness (chance would be a fine thing! :rolleyes: ) Like ITW I feel that amount of attention bestowed upon him would give an erotic quality, even if it were subconscious. And Demure is definitely something I'm working on; may take a while. :(
 
Enters, removing shoes and donning the slippers provided. Walks with quiet strength to the table and kneels, back upright, hands on thighs. Head bows 2 inches to Madam who has initiated this thread and ITW who has inspired it.

I can well understand the power of the self discipline in service as shown by the Geisha who focuses on the other and the act of service. (I have always loved the concept of every action being thought about and preented...service as art. There are similarities, I suspect, to any performance skill).

I think that the greatest attraction for me is the cultivation of timelessness...of setting aside the "busy"ness we all inhabit. I do hope that this thread will generate much discussion and encouragement for all who seek to explore this path.
 
subtleone said:
Interesting concept. I can neither be shy or delicate in the bedroom but I would love the chance to serve my Master's meal with total dedication and attentiveness (chance would be a fine thing! :rolleyes: ) Like ITW I feel that amount of attention bestowed upon him would give an erotic quality, even if it were subconscious. And Demure is definitely something I'm working on; may take a while. :(

subtle - you are so cute. I often feel as though demure is something I'm working on as well.
 
MadamaMiniTopic said:
This article was not written by me or Rebecca either for that matter. Apparently it was on file somewhere . No idea whom to give credit to nor do I endorse the ideas in the essay in totality . This is a Cafe Thread and the intention is to have fun as well as perhaps learn a few things. If nothing else an appreciation of Japanese culture.
In keeping with that last sentence, I'll share some of what I learned from a Japanese business associate years ago.

Strong societal pressure for women to get married (and devote their lives exclusively to raising children in the home) meant that being employed as a geisha was one of the few respectable ways for women to remain independent in Japan.

Due to the economics involved, the number of real geishas has been shrinking dramatically, but they are still trained as musicians, dancers, tea servers, conversationalists, etc. They are paid entertainers and actresses. A submissive personality may characterize some, but overall the demeanor of these women is a carefully constructed illusion and professional role.

Great discipline is required to develop their skills, but what they do is taught by their elders - not by the men who pay to be entertained by their performances. The men may request a specific dance, for example, but the idea of the men doing any training or directing is unthinkable.

For these reasons, I find the notion of "geisha submissives" to be ironic indeed!
 
JMohegan said:
In keeping with that last sentence, I'll share some of what I learned from a Japanese business associate years ago.

Strong societal pressure for women to get married (and devote their lives exclusively to raising children in the home) meant that being employed as a geisha was one of the few respectable ways for women to remain independent in Japan.

Due to the economics involved, the number of real geishas has been shrinking dramatically, but they are still trained as musicians, dancers, tea servers, conversationalists, etc. They are paid entertainers and actresses. A submissive personality may characterize some, but overall the demeanor of these women is a carefully constructed illusion and professional role.

Great discipline is required to develop their skills, but what they do is taught by their elders - not by the men who pay to be entertained by their performances. The men may request a specific dance, for example, but the idea of the men doing any training or directing is unthinkable.

For these reasons, I find the notion of "geisha submissives" to be ironic indeed!
JM,

You actually beat me to this comment! (I tried to post earlier but was barred, argh!) The term Geisha translates to "talented person" and the men who engaged these women's services respected them as artists. Their real role within the society of the time was to facilitate/provide the "lubrication" for the type of bonding and negotiating that is so necessary between men who work together within Japan's hierarchical social structure.

That's actually one reason I have never been able to bring myself to read memoirs of a Geisha - it was so clearly based on western misconceptions. Geisha, who were tough businesswomen as well as artists, also did take on lovers, always of their chosing. If I'd been born in Edo-era Japan, this is the road I would have taken.

Another reason for the decline in the number of women who choose to become Geisha - the social role they used to play is now most often played more cheaply by bar hostesses. In addition, the training is so long and exacting, I've read that most young women don't have the desire or discipline to take it on.

That said, they are beautiful in their traditions and manner and I can see bringing their artistry to a D/s relationship. It is definitely a turn-on.

I love this thread, Miss Rebecca! I promise to add pictures later.

:rose: ~ Neon

P.S., I have a set of small tea plates that I got when I attended a Geisha graduation while I was living in Tokyo. :cathappy:
 
Very true, JM! It's really a fascinating aspect of Japanese culture. I always find the fact that geishas are dwindling to be kind of sad.

I agree that true geishas are not necessarily submissive. I think there it's just a fun idea to play with.
 
I agree the thought of geisha's going the way of the purple goose is daunting. And again I agree with you sentiments regarding submissiveness. In fact geisha's are not submissive at all in our way of thinking but Japanese women are by definition submissive. Where as the word geisha means artist making them moving works of art.

intothewoods said:
Very true, JM! It's really a fascinating aspect of Japanese culture. I always find the fact that geishas are dwindling to be kind of sad.

I agree that true geishas are not necessarily submissive. I think there it's just a fun idea to play with.
 
neonflux said:
JM,

You actually beat me to this comment! (I tried to post earlier but was barred, argh!) The term Geisha translates to "talented person" and the men who engaged these women's services respected them as artists. Their real role within the society of the time was to facilitate/provide the "lubrication" for the type of bonding and negotiating that is so necessary between men who work together within Japan's hierarchical social structure.

That's actually one reason I have never been able to bring myself to read memoirs of a Geisha - it was so clearly based on western misconceptions. Geisha, who were tough businesswomen as well as artists, also did take on lovers, always of their chosing. If I'd been born in Edo-era Japan, this is the road I would have taken.

Another reason for the decline in the number of women who choose to become Geisha - the social role they used to play is now most often played more cheaply by bar hostesses. In addition, the training is so long and exacting, I've read that most young women don't have the desire or discipline to take it on.

That said, they are beautiful in their traditions and manner and I can see bringing their artistry to a D/s relationship. It is definitely a turn-on.

I love this thread, Miss Rebecca! I promise to add pictures later.

:rose: ~ Neon

P.S., I have a set of small tea plates that I got when I attended a Geisha graduation while I was living in Tokyo. :cathappy:

Madama barred you from posting! ;)

Interesting post, neon. I also saw a different progam on geishas (I guess geisha public television programs were all the rage at one time - lol) which described the cheap imitation geishas - bar hostesses.

I had no idea Memoirs of a Geisha wasn't based on real research (though the story was fiction). It's been years since I read it, but I do recall the details of the training and everything seemed in keeping with what I saw in the documentaries. Hmm...now I want to investigate!
 
intothewoods said:
Madama barred you from posting! ;)

Interesting post, neon. I also saw a different progam on geishas (I guess geisha public television programs were all the rage at one time - lol) which described the cheap imitation geishas - bar hostesses.

I had no idea Memoirs of a Geisha wasn't based on real research (though the story was fiction). It's been years since I read it, but I do recall the details of the training and everything seemed in keeping with what I saw in the documentaries. Hmm...now I want to investigate!
ITW, it's not so much the training that wasn't well researched, but the interpretation of what their role really is that was at issue, as far as I could tell. Don't quote me on that one though. I am, in essense, speaking out of one side of my mouth as I never read the book or saw the movie. :rolleyes: Neon
 
intothewoods said:
Madama barred you from posting! ;)

Interesting post, neon. I also saw a different progam on geishas (I guess geisha public television programs were all the rage at one time - lol) which described the cheap imitation geishas - bar hostesses.

I had no idea Memoirs of a Geisha wasn't based on real research (though the story was fiction). It's been years since I read it, but I do recall the details of the training and everything seemed in keeping with what I saw in the documentaries. Hmm...now I want to investigate!

Try getting your hands on the Lesley Downer book Woman of the Pleasure Quarters. My copy is a preloved version via ebay though it lists inside the cover www.broadwaybooks.com as a source. The author has some commonality with our Neon in as much as she actually spent several months living and training as Geisha ( Neon may correct me to some degree on terminology , maiko is perhaps more appropriate ) as an academic pursuit. Lesley Downer credits the Arthur Golden book as partial inspiration to the endeavour of exploring not only the History but the living reality of Geisha today.

I myself have travelled to Japan numerous times over the years starting back at the age of about 6 years old. I understand quite well the allure. I am fairly challenged at the moment due to a current project I am working on , so will be sticking to travel anecdotes and fluff on this thread in the next few days. I may wade into examination of perceptions of Geisha and potential to incorporate skills, there associated with, into the broader perception of submissive 'skill base'. I am not even sure if it has immediate D/s connotations at all . Like great art & music if you have a love of it , you will incorporate it into your life simply because you can.
 
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neonflux said:
One of the women with whom I studied Noh theatre...

Wasn't she wonderful? :D

(more on Japanese women later)

:rose:
Yes Neon and she looks like she may have been a candidate for Japan's Living National Treasures :rose: .



The term Living National Treasure is an informal designation for a person whom the government has recognized as exemplary in carrying on Japanese traditions. Performing artists in genres including noh, bunraku, and kabuki, and artists and artisans in traditional crafts, have received this distinction.

Wiki Link ~ Living National Treasure
 
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I have a had a small amouunt of contact with Japanese culture..such as reading Western translations of some books and talking to the parents of a Japanese flute pupil

My approach is to start with the assumption that I know nothing, and then listen not only to the way the culture operates, but the why it operates in that way. For that reason..it seems to be self evidnt that any attempts to adopt geisha style practices into western style D/s will be, at best, a pastiche. Having said that, such influences have occurred in maintream art in the past to great effect, (as in the late 1800's - an influence that actually went both ways Western Influence on Japanese Art ).

I certainly strongly agree that it would be a gross insult to a Geisha to suggest that they had anything in common with prostitutes apart from living in the same district. When I read Memoirs of a Geisha (written by a Westerner for a Western Audience), I hadn't appreciated the errors in the book about the Mizuage (See here) , but there are also sections which I suspect are true to life.

However, That doesn't mean that there are not elements of the bearing and activities of Geisha that would not translate very effectively into a more Old Guard style of D/s. I don't believe anyone would be crass enough to believe that we are doing anything more than creating the illusion of Geisha to add to our play, but I would suggest that this is entirely appropriate as we are learning from the Mistresses of Illusion.
 
Oh my God you all know so much about the Japnaese culture. I have just began my study...more please...much more.
 
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FluteMaster said:
I have a had a small amouunt of contact with Japanese culture..such as reading Western translations of some books and talking to the parents of a Japanese flute pupil

My approach is to start with the assumption that I know nothing, and then listen not only to the way the culture operates, but the why it operates in that way. For that reason..it seems to be self evidnt that any attempts to adopt geisha style practices into western style D/s will be, at best, a pastiche. Having said that, such influences have occurred in maintream art in the past to great effect, (as in the late 1800's - an influence that actually went both ways Western Influence on Japanese Art ).

I certainly strongly agree that it would be a gross insult to a Geisha to suggest that they had anything in common with prostitutes apart from living in the same district. When I read Memoirs of a Geisha (written by a Westerner for a Western Audience), I hadn't appreciated the errors in the book about the Mizuage (See here) , but there are also sections which I suspect are true to life.

However, That doesn't mean that there are not elements of the bearing and activities of Geisha that would not translate very effectively into a more Old Guard style of D/s. I don't believe anyone would be crass enough to believe that we are doing anything more than creating the illusion of Geisha to add to our play, but I would suggest that this is entirely appropriate as we are learning from the Mistresses of Illusion.
Thank you for the link to the interview with Iwasaki Mineko - it was instructive and also confirmed for me what my impression was of the novel. I didn't realize that she had sued him. It will be interesting to see what comes of the court settlement. Now, to find her book! ~ Neon
 
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