I refuse to dumb down my poetry

[WickedEve]

I am often accused of vague and confusing poetry.
My latest is Poetry People.

Poetry at 232.8 Celsius
ignites living poems--
a walking Purdah
or Portrait D'une Femme.

Keeper of Hope,
I sing Kashmiri
while pale hands love the snow.

I am the poem,
cocking my head in recognition
of uttered

Shalimar?

On those cool waters
where we used to dwell,
I say in sweet bitterness,
for warmth has lulled me
into the clear cold.

Me, Kashmiri Song,
a string of kited words,
pass falling winter on my rise
away from 451 degrees.

Comment:
Confused or Dumb?
01/18/05 by Anonymous in Berkeley UK
I,ve read this through 5 or 6 times.The sounds of the words are fine but are they intended to mean anything? Or is the fact that they mean nothing the point of the poem?
I've scored it neutral not because I think it's good, bad,challenging or am indifferent, but because I simply cannot understand it. Should I?

Don't laugh, but I find this situation very intimidating especially when others do not share my problem. That's also the reason I remain anonymous - fear of laughter.

Comment:
dumb and confused
01/18/05 by WickedEve
You may be confused but certainly not dumb.
This poem was inspired by Fahrenheit 451 and the book people in the story. Instead of burning books, image if poetry was so contemptible to some that it was torched. Would poetry lovers dedicate their time, their lives, to becoming a living poem, to remember and recite that poem religiously so it could never be lost? That's what the poem is about. I become the poem Kashmiri Song. There are other human poems walking about--ones by Pound and Plath.
I do write what is perceived as confusing or vague poetry, I suppose. And I realize that readers don't want to be presented with something they don't understand. But I will continue to write this way or however I choose. If you don't understand, feel free to email me and I'll tell you about my inspiration and what the poem means to me.



That was the best response that I could come up with tonight. Earlier, I agreed with another comment about it being contrived, constructed and concocted. This poem did not flow from me, but I think it's still a decent enough poem. I am still learning. I want to try everything. So, please bear with me while I write this kind of poetry. If you find a poem of mine confusing or vague or crappy, then it may simply be because it's about a subject you're not familiar with--or it could be confusing, vague, and crappy... lol What else can I say?

 

[PatCarrington]

eve.

do not change the way you write.

i learn every time i read a piece of yours.

let your readers rise to you.

 

[annaswirls]

eve.

do not change the way you write.

i learn every time i read a piece of yours.

let your readers rise to you.

amen brother!

and thanks for the background, Eve. I got the F.451 reference, but I love the whole idea of becoming a poem.

Sometime I have to tell you about a class I took, Living By Heart about the importance of living poetry that speaks to who you are.

I would say "don't change" but that is part of what makes you Eve, it is your ability to make a conscious choice TO change. To take risk. You know how to write popular poetry. It is brave of you to stretch your wings and refuse to be boxed up, to be put in a vase, (to borrow a metaphor...) so if you grow too quickly and the vase breaks, so be it. Write another vase and hop back in for a while.

you are a flower with legs
ready to jump out at any time

we watch the floor for little stem foot prints and wonder where you have gone.... waiting for that sign.

 

[Angeline]

eve.

do not change the way you write.

i learn every time i read a piece of yours.

let your readers rise to you.

what he said.

your explanation is very good as is your poem. no reader can be in a writer's head to understand perfectly. yes, poems must communicate but in some ways reading them is like learning a new language--there's a certain amount of studying involved to gain fluency. and sometimes poems are unclear because the writer doesn't know what he or she wants to say, but that's not happening in this poem at all, imo.

 

[WickedEve]

I know how to write poetry that would be gleefully accepted by many readers. Poetry that would linger on the top list. Poems that would earn me adoration from readers who would email me and rave about the words I shared. I learned how to write that poetry--like many of us here. I wrote that poetry, once. When I first came here, I had my adoring fans and I dominated the top list like a poetry bitch. But then I learned how to write poetry. Now that I write poetry, the fans are fading.

But I am content.

 

[Guest]

I personally love the poem and see what you're trying to convey, especially this:

I am the poem,
cocking my head in recognition
of uttered

Shalimar?

Very nice, eye-catching, attention getting... I'll go say so now in your PC, Eve.


- neo

 

[annaswirls]

I know how to write poetry that would be gleefully accepted by many readers. Poetry that would linger on the top list. Poems that would earn me adoration from readers who would email me and rave about the words I shared. I learned how to write that poetry--like many of us here. I wrote that poetry, once. When I first came here, I had my adoring fans and I dominated the top list like a poetry bitch. But then I learned how to write poetry. Now that I write poetry, the fans are fading.

But I am content.

Eve darlin' I do not think your fans are not fading. I know many people who adore you, girl, take a step back and look. You are everywhere I just checked the top list and I know it doesn't matter to you, but eh hem you still have a strong presence.

for what it's worth, in my opinion, do what you want. what makes you enjoy your own writing. I also think that the readers here have changed, I might be wrong, but it seems to be so. The panty poetry does not stay on the top list, moistly .... oop I mean mostly non-erotic stuff there.

 

[WickedEve]

Eve darlin' I do not think your fans are not fading. I know many people who adore you, girl, take a step back and look. You are everywhere I just checked the top list and I know it doesn't matter to you, but eh hem you still have a strong presence.

for what it's worth, in my opinion, do what you want. what makes you enjoy your own writing. I also think that the readers here have changed, I might be wrong, but it seems to be so. The panty poetry does not stay on the top list, moistly .... oop I mean mostly non-erotic stuff there.

moistly... lol
I can't sleep and I'm getting all fretful over this. Maybe I'm not communicating properly with my poetry. Sure, I know what I'm talking about but does anyone else? lol There are so many fascinating facts, people, words, etc out there that I just want to write about some of it. But what good is the poem if the majority of the people don't get it... like my stereogram poem. I need to explain myself better in my poems. Or write what I really know, what flows from me, blah blah and blah.

blah.

 

[WickedEve]

I may be having a poetry crisis! Oh god. I'll start writing hot, little sex poems that rhyme everything with cock, squish and vegetable oil! My poetry will be a like a fat gold chain on a hairy chest!

Ack!

 

[WickedEve]

Am I being a drama queen again? I'm going to bed.

 

[BooMerengue]

I know how to write poetry that would be gleefully accepted by many readers. Poetry that would linger on the top list. Poems that would earn me adoration from readers who would email me and rave about the words I shared. I learned how to write that poetry--like many of us here. I wrote that poetry, once. When I first came here, I had my adoring fans and I dominated the top list like a poetry bitch. But then I learned how to write poetry. Now that I write poetry, the fans are fading.

But I am content.

Is that the reason my 2 Hate poems bombed so badly? Cuz I'm learning to write?

 

[twelveoone]

I am often accused of vague and confusing poetry.
My latest is Poetry People.

Poetry at 232.8 Celsius
ignites living poems--
a walking Purdah
or Portrait D'une Femme.

Keeper of Hope,
I sing Kashmiri
while pale hands love the snow.

I am the poem,
cocking my head in recognition
of uttered

Shalimar?

On those cool waters
where we used to dwell,
I say in sweet bitterness,
for warmth has lulled me
into the clear cold.

Me, Kashmiri Song,
a string of kited words,
pass falling winter on my rise
away from 451 degrees.

Comment:
Confused or Dumb?
01/18/05 by Anonymous in Berkeley UK
I,ve read this through 5 or 6 times.The sounds of the words are fine but are they intended to mean anything? Or is the fact that they mean nothing the point of the poem?
I've scored it neutral not because I think it's good, bad,challenging or am indifferent, but because I simply cannot understand it. Should I?

Don't laugh, but I find this situation very intimidating especially when others do not share my problem. That's also the reason I remain anonymous - fear of laughter.

Comment:
dumb and confused
01/18/05 by WickedEve
You may be confused but certainly not dumb.
This poem was inspired by Fahrenheit 451 and the book people in the story. Instead of burning books, image if poetry was so contemptible to some that it was torched. Would poetry lovers dedicate their time, their lives, to becoming a living poem, to remember and recite that poem religiously so it could never be lost? That's what the poem is about. I become the poem Kashmiri Song. There are other human poems walking about--ones by Pound and Plath.
I do write what is perceived as confusing or vague poetry, I suppose. And I realize that readers don't want to be presented with something they don't understand. But I will continue to write this way or however I choose. If you don't understand, feel free to email me and I'll tell you about my inspiration and what the poem means to me.



That was the best response that I could come up with tonight. Earlier, I agreed with another comment about it being contrived, constructed and concocted. This poem did not flow from me, but I think it's still a decent enough poem. I am still learning. I want to try everything. So, please bear with me while I write this kind of poetry. If you find a poem of mine confusing or vague or crappy, then it may simply be because it's about a subject you're not familiar with--or it could be confusing, vague, and crappy... lol What else can I say?

Eve, my little drama queen, some comments - this is worth breaking my exile from this "tower of ego"
1.) for the first time I have sympathy for a anonomous comment, which leads to two.
2.) I get annoyed, if I have to google something, every three lines, I like it once or twice. Here you have obscure references, and uncommon concepts (maybe 7) in what 21 lines, if one gets them all, one sees how powerful this is.
You can be forgiven in part, because of the "veiling" and disassociation of yourself from the poem, this I assumed was part of the intent.
3.) the question you ask is one of "relative worth" both for you and the audience, what do you want to do, what part of the audience do you want? Not everybody will get it (or want to) You should be asking "Did this do what I want it to?" If yes, then fuck the rest. Some of the audience (myself included) have to ask themselves, "Is this worth the time to investigate?". In this case, my answer was yes, I found it well worth my time.
4.) Living poems - Pound and Plath? Couldn't you have picked two better people? Let those self-absorbed, life denying Aholes die. Creates an image,
Pound and Plath in hell, living together, celebrating Christmas together - excuse me, got lost, for a minute. Neither one appears to have written anything funny.
5.) I am an admirer of your work, I can take the unfunny, along with the funny. It is alway multi-layered (deeper meanings) and worth the effort.

 

[WickedEve]

Re: Re: I refuse to dumb down my poetry

Eve, my little drama queen, some comments - this is worth breaking my exile from this "tower of ego"
1.) for the first time I have sympathy for a anonomous comment, which leads to two.
2.) I get annoyed, if I have to google something, every three lines, I like it once or twice. Here you have obscure references, and uncommon concepts (maybe 7) in what 21 lines, if one gets them all, one sees how powerful this is.
You can be forgiven in part, because of the "veiling" and disassociation of yourself from the poem, this I assumed was part of the intent.
3.) the question you ask is one of "relative worth" both for you and the audience, what do you want to do, what part of the audience do you want? Not everybody will get it (or want to) You should be asking "Did this do what I want it to?" If yes, then fuck the rest. Some of the audience (myself included) have to ask themselves, "Is this worth the time to investigate?". In this case, my answer was yes, I found it well worth my time.
4.) Living poems - Pound and Plath? Couldn't you have picked two better people? Let those self-absorbed, life denying Aholes die. Creates an image,
Pound and Plath in hell, living together, celebrating Christmas together - excuse me, got lost, for a minute. Neither one appears to have written anything funny.
5.) I am an admirer of your work, I can take the unfunny, along with the funny. It is alway multi-layered (deeper meanings) and worth the effort.

Pound and plath and their poems beginning with P because I wanted P poetry for that stanza. What a reason to choose them. I didn't know they were hated. I have heard varying opinions on Plath, though. I really don't know what I'm doing. And don't feel sorry for anon's comment. His comment wasn't "dumb" as I said. This isn't directed at him/her. Recently, I've been getting those kind of comments and I'm trying to understand what I'm doing wrong. I'm having a poetic growing spurt, damn it. And my verses are all gangly and awkward. I may hide them from you all until their faces clear up.

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Re: Re: I refuse to dumb down my poetry

Pound and plath and their poems beginning with P because I wanted P poetry for that stanza. What a reason to choose them. I didn't know they were hated. I have heard varying opinions on Plath, though. I really don't know what I'm doing. And don't feel sorry for anon's comment. His comment wasn't "dumb" as I said. This isn't directed at him/her. Recently, I've been getting those kind of comments and I'm trying to understand what I'm doing wrong. I'm having a poetic growing spurt, damn it. And my verses are all gangly and awkward. I may hide them from you all until their faces clear up.

Please don't (hide them)
Pound and Plath are hated by me, they are my "pimples"
this is a periennal problem, Poet and Poetry reader pursuing a common understanding.

(I feel sorry that he feels he should be anonomus for fear of looking dumb; dare to be dumb, you may get elected President someday, but I noticed he was from the UK -well, they have their dumb ones too)

And that is a pretty dress, and I have to go, I'm starting to talk like Porky Pig.

 

[twelveoone]

BTW the way what was the intiation like?

 

[WickedEve]

BTW the way what was the intiation like?

what intiation? I was up all night with my kid and I'm totally out of it. And now I'm up with the other kid, waiting on the big yellow bus.
I sent email.

 

[WickedEve]

I'm in the doctor's office often. Too often. That's when I get a chance to read the poetry in the New Yorker. Yesterday, I read The Chardin Exhibition by Edward Hirsch. It's a very good poem. I read it again, slowly. I was in awe of it. I want to write like this.

While I was studying the copper cistern
and the silver goblet, a soup tureen
with a cat stalking a partridge and a hare,

you were gulping down the morning light
and moving from the bedstand to the bureau,
from the shuttered window to the open door.

While I was taking my time over a pristine jar
of apricots and a basket of wild strawberries—
a pyramid leaning toward a faceted glass—

you were sitting at a low breakfast table
and eating a soft-boiled egg—just one—
from a tiny, hesitant, glittering spoon.

While I was absorbed in a duck hanging
by one leg and a hare with a powder flask
and a game bag, which you wanted me to see,

you were lying on the living-room couch
for a nap, one of your last, next to
a white porcelain vase with two carnations.

I wish I could have stood there with you
in front of Chardin's last self-portrait,
exclaiming over his turban with a bow

and the red splash of his pastel crayon—
a new medium—which he used, dearest,
to defy death on a sheet of blue paper.

 

[jthserra]

So, please bear with me while I write this kind of poetry. If you find a poem of mine confusing or vague or crappy, then it may simply be because it's about a subject you're not familiar with--or it could be confusing, vague, and crappy... lol What else can I say?

Eve,

Don't apologize for challenging the reader, sure you'll have a few give up on the poem, calling it vague, but there will be others who will understand and take the time to really read it.

I read a poem on various levels, first I read it for the initial impact, the closing line that sends a chill though me, the passage that makes me sigh, the phrasing that brings a tear to my eye. Then I read it for the rhythm, the sounds, the way it feels as it rolls off my tongue. I then look for the layers, the metaphor... sometimes obvious, other times artfully or stealthly crafted. It is here where real poetry shines, where I can see beyond gifted phrasing and actually feel the poem.

I may not catch every reference, every nuance, but if I can, not just read, but feel the wonderful texture of the poem I am gratified: the poet has truely touched me. Unfortunately, many people don't take the time, or simply don't understand enough about poetry to grasp the depths of a poem. In fact, I think most people just don't "get" poetry. That is why Rod McCuen is the best selling poet, he appeals though initial impact, whereas a Sylvia Plath at her best has impact, is powerful to read (I have hear recordings of her read her own poetry and wow...) and has layers of meaning in her poem. Rod McCuen would finish higher in the top list, but Sylvia will have a significant impact on those who take the time and have the understanding to feel her poems.

Eve, I "feel" your poems and they often have a significant impact on me on every level. Sure, I'll miss the nuances here and there, perhaps stumble on a reference I might find obscure, but your poetry is always challenging, surprising, layered and exciting. Please, please don't ever dumb down your poetry, unless it is to make a specific point... of course it making that specific point, it is no longer dumbed down.

Just my thoughts here,

jim : )

 

[WickedEve]

Cigars by Gerald Stern begins like this:
"The same cracked hoarse nasal sexy laugh--"

I left a PC recently where I suggested that a poet shouldn't clump together so many adjectives in front of the noun.
Stern does. And it works. After that adjective laden line, it lightens up and flows. It's like those little toy cars that you rev up by stroking the wheels backwards on the floor several times, then you let go and it zooms. That's how this poem felt.

 

[WickedEve]

Re: Re: I refuse to dumb down my poetry

Eve,

Don't apologize for challenging the reader, sure you'll have a few give up on the poem, calling it vague, but there will be others who will understand and take the time to really read it.

I read a poem on various levels, first I read it for the initial impact, the closing line that sends a chill though me, the passage that makes me sigh, the phrasing that brings a tear to my eye. Then I read it for the rhythm, the sounds, the way it feels as it rolls off my tongue. I then look for the layers, the metaphor... sometimes obvious, other times artfully or stealthly crafted. It is here where real poetry shines, where I can see beyond gifted phrasing and actually feel the poem.

I may not catch every reference, every nuance, but if I can, not just read, but feel the wonderful texture of the poem I am gratified: the poet has truely touched me. Unfortunately, many people don't take the time, or simply don't understand enough about poetry to grasp the depths of a poem. In fact, I think most people just don't "get" poetry. That is why Rod McCuen is the best selling poet, he appeals though initial impact, whereas a Sylvia Plath at her best has impact, is powerful to read (I have hear recordings of her read her own poetry and wow...) and has layers of meaning in her poem. Rod McCuen would finish higher in the top list, but Sylvia will have a significant impact on those who take the time and have the understanding to feel her poems.

Eve, I "feel" your poems and they often have a significant impact on me on every level. Sure, I'll miss the nuances here and there, perhaps stumble on a reference I might find obscure, but your poetry is always challenging, surprising, layered and exciting. Please, please don't ever dumb down your poetry, unless it is to make a specific point... of course it making that specific point, it is no longer dumbed down.

Just my thoughts here,

jim : )

Thank you. I always learn something when I read your poetry and I'm inspired by it. I'm just at the point where I feel like I don't know what I'm doing and I'm trying to figure it all out.

 

[WickedEve]

My highest rated poem on the top list is after he swung it around the room.
backyard and frightful weather,
there is cat and uncle benny eleazar
to bury. he'll be beneath.

we will curl tabby stray
on his chest, perhaps his mexican
hairless head. he would have loved
a brindled toupee.

amen.


Okay, it's funny, but it sure isn't my best poem! But that's what most readers want. They want to be mindlessly entertained. They want poetry that's like tv--poetry like a trans fatty, processed donut! They don't want to read a poem and have to think about it.
Feed me. Let me belch. Ah, that was good. No time to savor and taste and be titillated and challenged.

I swear, I'm just having a fit here. A FIT!

 

[annaswirls]

I may be having a poetry crisis! Oh god. I'll start writing hot, little sex poems that rhyme everything with cock, squish and vegetable oil! My poetry will be a like a fat gold chain on a hairy chest!

Ack!

I think we should have a new poem challenge
must rhyme
must use at least 5 of the following words

cock
squish
oil
pussy

um okay that is all I can think of

must contain 1 cliche

etc.

whattya say?

Jenn

 

[annaswirls]

My highest rated poem on the top list is after he swung it around the room.
backyard and frightful weather,
there is cat and uncle benny eleazar
to bury. he'll be beneath.

we will curl tabby stray
on his chest, perhaps his mexican
hairless head. he would have loved
a brindled toupee.

amen.


Okay, it's funny, but it sure isn't my best poem! But that's what most readers want. They want to be mindlessly entertained. They want poetry that's like tv--poetry like a trans fatty, processed donut! They don't want to read a poem and have to think about it.
Feed me. Let me belch. Ah, that was good. No time to savor and taste and be titillated and challenged.

I swear, I'm just having a fit here. A FIT!

girlfriend take a deep breath and think about what you would say to me in this situation, you always have the right thing to say



and after he swung it around the room was clever

my highest on the toplist I think is about trees dying. don't give up hope. Or are you saying that it is mindless?

eh hem

heheeee kidding girl.

 

[annaswirls]

I'm in the doctor's office often. Too often. That's when I get a chance to read the poetry in the New Yorker. Yesterday, I read The Chardin Exhibition by Edward Hirsch. It's a very good poem. I read it again, slowly. I was in awe of it. I want to write like this.

While I was studying the copper cistern
and the silver goblet, a soup tureen
with a cat stalking a partridge and a hare,

you were gulping down the morning light
and moving from the bedstand to the bureau,
from the shuttered window to the open door.

While I was taking my time over a pristine jar
of apricots and a basket of wild strawberries—
a pyramid leaning toward a faceted glass—

you were sitting at a low breakfast table
and eating a soft-boiled egg—just one—
from a tiny, hesitant, glittering spoon.

While I was absorbed in a duck hanging
by one leg and a hare with a powder flask
and a game bag, which you wanted me to see,

you were lying on the living-room couch
for a nap, one of your last, next to
a white porcelain vase with two carnations.

I wish I could have stood there with you
in front of Chardin's last self-portrait,
exclaiming over his turban with a bow

and the red splash of his pastel crayon—
a new medium—which he used, dearest,
to defy death on a sheet of blue paper.

wah okay tears!

 

[annaswirls]

Re: Re: Re: I refuse to dumb down my poetry

Thank you. I always learn something when I read your poetry and I'm inspired by it. I'm just at the point where I feel like I don't know what I'm doing and I'm trying to figure it all out.

that is what keeps you so young and sexy

I have said this before, I do not particularly like to be challenged by a poem too much. I am not ignorant or lazy. If I want to work and reasearch, I read essays and novels or scientific articles. That is just me.

I like intelligent poetry that does not require research, it can be done. Look at Billy Collins. He is incredibly intelligent, he does not dumb down his poetry, he just presents it so that Everyone can reach deeper meanings of the every day. I would not call him Rod McKuen. He would make the top list.

Remember, Pablo Nerudo did not get an E or an H before Laurel pulled him from the new poetry list.



I like poetry that washes over you, with feeling or meaning (even if obscure) so that you might not understand every piece but afterwards you feel, think or see differently than you did when you started.

Like a slow walk through the woods, noticing every waxy berry and the cedar wax wing hiding in the top branches... as opposed to running yourself into a sweat. Sometimes the work comes in allowing yourself to be emotionally moved by a poem.



Some people think that a poem is not good unless it is academic and shows off vocabulary. I think of Eve's Macheivellian poem, it seems to poke fun of that PBS academia, but in a way that intelligent AND accessible. I am sure there were people who did not get the message of that one too, but that would be because they were not Thinking, not because they did not do the research.

And dont stop posting your experiments here. This is literotica, bless this place, but Eve.... come on, where else can you better experiment with your writing ? LBJ? Dessert Blooms? I dont think so.

And try not to take the comments to heart, when you experiment you are going to get people who do not like the results. Everyone knows what you can do if you choose to do it.

Be a pioneer.