I need a mentor!

[Angeline]

Ok, maybe mentors. For the past 7 or 8 years I've written poetry pretty much exclusively. I'm good at poetry: I know how to make images work, where to break lines for the best effect, how long a strophe should be, etc., blah, blah. I know the difference between a vilanelle and a terzanelle. Yay me. But I've always been a writer and I've written a few short stories here over the years (though only one is up now at Lit).

I want this to be the year I write prose, short stories, novellas, maybe even a novel. I want to try to sell what I write. I know I'm good enough to get poetry published; I have done that. I think I'm good enough to succeed with stories. But I'm a babe in the woods. I need advice about how to get ideas that can be fleshed into stories, how to develop characters, how to understand what makes good prose good. Will you help me?

I've spend the past week or so reading threads here and in the other story forums. My head is spinning with lots of information. I think I need a tour guide, a mentor (or mentors). Will you help me wade through all the information and make a go of it?

Thank you all in advance for any advice/hand-holding you can give. I want to be good at this and I think you're the right people to help me get there. I wanna be your student.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Angeline, I'd consider it an honor to Ment you. I'd ment you to hell and back, darling, such mentation that you'd be the happiest mentee ever to be mentelating in the history of menkind.

I offer my services at your beck and call. And as a gift, a token of esteem--a kind of key to the Kingdom of Fiction--let me place around your neck this little locket containing a scrap of parchment, the Ultimate Emergency Ending, a magical key that can be used to extricate yourself from any tale or fictional situation no matter how dire: "...and they all died in the quicksand!" Keep it close and use it wisely, child, and you'll always be safe.

But seriously, what are you up to? What can we do for you? Working on something? Need a review? A pruning? (Poets writing fiction often do.) Looking for a point of view? Characters running away from you or misbehaving?

Can't tell you how good it is to see you over here. You honor us. You make me want to throw all the magazines under the cushions.

--Zoot

 

[Liar]

Ohmigod. Deep waters, eh?

My first advice would be: Don't fret it. If you have a story that is long, it will be a long story. The best prose is laden with a poem per paragraph anyway, so just start with a poem - and don't stop writing.

That's the main thing about prose writing, technically. You create a consistent world. Your own or fictional. When it feels, prosodically, or idea-wise, that you reached the end of a thought (as you would in a poem), take that last line and use it to trigger a new thought, a new chain of ideas. And so it rolls. As long as it's consistent with the universe you created for it, you're set. Your partcular brand of poetry has a tone and voice to it that lends itself beautifully to longer stories, imo without any adaptation. Just press that next key and type another word, instead of that line break.

Now, that's just the text spurting, the writing process, or at leas the one I use. I'll let someone else talk about plot structure, character development and so on. Cause I suck at that. I just take a good book or movie or something, and mimic what I see, and try to apply that to other circumstances.

 

[Angeline]

Angeline, I'd consider it an honor to Ment you. I'd ment you to hell and back, darling, such mentation that you'd be the happiest mentee ever to be mentelating in the history of menkind.

I offer my services at your beck and call. And as a gift, a token of esteem--a kind of key to the Kingdom of Fiction--let me place around your neck this little locket containing a scrap of parchment, the Ultimate Emergency Ending, a magical key that can be used to extricate yourself from any tale or fictional situation no matter how dire: "...and they all died in the quicksand!" Keep it close and use it wisely, child, and you'll always be safe.

But seriously, what are you up to? What can we do for you? Working on something? Need a review? A pruning? (Poets writing fiction often do.) Looking for a point of view? Characters running away from you or misbehaving?

Can't tell you how good it is to see you over here. You honor us. You make me want to throw all the magazines under the cushions.

--Zoot

The good feeling is entirely mutual. You know (well I think you know) that I'm a great fan of your writing. To me, you write poetic prose. And you're so effing prolific that if I didn't really like you, I'd be incredibly jealous of how fast you churn out the good prose.

So here's my first question: How do you choose your subject? Ok, you've been doing this prose thing for so long (and not just you, many of you here) that prolly you could pull any subject out of a hat and make it work. But where do you start? With what you know and like? With what you think will be popular? It seems logical to me that one would write from one's strengths. I know a lot about jazz and what might be considered the "classic jazz" period in American history (say, 1920s through 1950). I also know that "erotic horror" is a very popular genre. I know you read my story Autumn in New York, which I wrote for the Halloween contest a few years ago. I tried to marry my love of jazz and my interest in erotic horror in that story. My inclination is to continue in that vein. Would it make sense to redo that story and try to make it longer or start from scratch?

And whether I redo or begin something new, how much effort should I put into research? If I know my protagonist is going to be a vampire, for example, should I create a research file on vampires so I get my facts straight? Should I write a character sketch so I really know my protagonist before I start the story, or is it better to just write (albeit informed by facts) and let the character come to life as I go? How much "prewriting" do you successful authors do, anyway?

Thank you for offering to help. I'm really excited about getting going with this.


Yours in menteeing,
A.

PS And if I ever actually use the "and they all sank in quicksand. The end," YOU get to use your free "kick Angeline in the butt" card for not trying harder.

 

[Angeline]

Ohmigod. Deep waters, eh?

My first advice would be: Don't fret it. If you have a story that is long, it will be a long story. The best prose is laden with a poem per paragraph anyway, so just start with a poem - and don't stop writing.

That's the main thing about prose writing, technically. You create a consistent world. Your own or fictional. When it feels, prosodically, or idea-wise, that you reached the end of a thought (as you would in a poem), take that last line and use it to trigger a new thought, a new chain of ideas. And so it rolls. As long as it's consistent with the universe you created for it, you're set. Your partcular brand of poetry has a tone and voice to it that lends itself beautifully to longer stories, imo without any adaptation. Just press that next key and type another word, instead of that line break.

Now, that's just the text spurting, the writing process, or at leas the one I use. I'll let someone else talk about plot structure, character development and so on. Cause I suck at that. I just take a good book or movie or something, and mimic what I see, and try to apply that to other circumstances.

Thank you, L-Man. Character development is what frets me most of all. I'm so used to fitting it all into 20 or 30 lines. I fear I'll just run out of ideas. I want to believe that the imagination just keeps it rolling and the characters come to life. That's what happens, right?

 

[3113]

Are you a Storyteller?

Thank you all in advance for any advice/hand-holding you can give.

Okay, I'll bite.

As Maria Von Trapp says, let's start at the very beginning.

Lesson #1: To write stories you have to read them. Read. Read, read, read. Not forums, or threads. Stories. The kind of short stories you'd like to write. Which, by the way, are what? Because there is some difference in writing short stories depending on what type you'd like to write. If you want to write a stroke story to be sold to Hustler, then you don't need the same education as someone who wants to write a story like "Brokeback Mountain" to sell to the New Yorker.

It doesn't matter to me how much you've already read. Read more. Lots more.

Lesson #2: You say "I want to try to sell what I write." Hey. So do we all (or almost all of us). Now forget about it. Why? Because it will keep you from writing. You write stories because you have a story to tell. That's lesson #2. And if you don't have a story to tell, then you're not a short story writer. Ability to write good is important, but I know people who write very good who can't write stories...because no story ever comes to mind that they want to tell. This includes several poets I've know who tried their hands at storytelling.

Lesson #3: Every story must start with an idea. BUT an idea is not a story. Keep that in mind. It's a very important lesson. An idea is not a story. I'll give you an example. Idea: Man cheats on his wife and loses her, and now must find a way to win her back.

You can get any number of stories from that idea. An idea generates stories, but it is not, in itself a story.

Homework: Read short stories. After you've read your fill of them, come up with six of your own ideas that could be turned into stories.

I'm telling you this quite seriously here. You can be told a ton of stuff, but none of it will do you any good unless you start small and at the beginning. Don't try to eat a meal in one bite. Read...and decide if you have stories that you want to tell. Because believing you can write a short story doesn't matter. What matters is KNOWING that you're a storyteller.

 

[3113]

But where do you start? With what you know and like? With what you think will be popular?.... And whether I redo or begin something new, how much effort should I put into research? If I know my protagonist is going to be a vampire, for example, should I create a research file on vampires so I get my facts straight? Should I write a character sketch so I really know my protagonist before I start the story, or is it better to just write (albeit informed by facts) and let the character come to life as I go? How much "prewriting" do you successful authors do, anyway?

You're trying to dance before you can walk...Research is #10 not #1, #2, #3, ...etc.

Unless you've already got a story you're working on? Toss this crap out of your head. Start with the idea. Start with the story you want to tell. Because that story isn't about a Vampire and it isn't about 1940's Jazz. It's about "Man cheats on his wife..." or "Poor girl falls for a rich man..."

Do you see? Either of those could be in 1940's Jazz world OR with a Vampire. IDEA first. Details and Research LATER. Not lesson #1. Start small.

 

[Angeline]

Okay, I'll bite.

As Maria Von Trapp says, let's start at the very beginning.

Lesson #1: To write stories you have to read them. Read. Read, read, read. Not forums, or threads. Stories. The kind of short stories you'd like to write. Which, by the way, are what? Because there is some difference in writing short stories depending on what type you'd like to write. If you want to write a stroke story to be sold to Hustler, then you don't need the same education as someone who wants to write a story like "Brokeback Mountain" to sell to the New Yorker.

It doesn't matter to me how much you've already read. Read more. Lots more.

Lesson #2: You say "I want to try to sell what I write." Hey. So do we all (or almost all of us). Now forget about it. Why? Because it will keep you from writing. You write stories because you have a story to tell. That's lesson #2. And if you don't have a story to tell, then you're not a short story writer. Ability to write good is important, but I know people who write very good who can't write stories...because no story ever comes to mind that they want to tell. This includes several poets I've know who tried their hands at storytelling.

Lesson #3: Every story must start with an idea. BUT an idea is not a story. Keep that in mind. It's a very important lesson. An idea is not a story. I'll give you an example. Idea: Man cheats on his wife and loses her, and now must find a way to win her back.

You can get any number of stories from that idea. An idea generates stories, but it is not, in itself a story.

Homework: Read short stories. After you've read your fill of them, come up with six of your own ideas that could be turned into stories.

I'm telling you this quite seriously here. You can be told a ton of stuff, but none of it will do you any good unless you start small and at the beginning. Don't try to eat a meal in one bite. Read...and decide if you have stories that you want to tell. Because believing you can write a short story doesn't matter. What matters is KNOWING that you're a storyteller.

Thank you. This is excellent advice and Lesson 2 is scary because I know exactly what you mean. How do people get ideas? I mean I know I love to write about jazz and New York City and vampires, for example, but can I get stories from that? I got one, one sort of good story. So I don't know where the ideas come from. I've been reading here a lot. I've been skimming the top lists in stories here, I've read (reread) some of Dr. Mab's stories; I've read Colleen Thomas (who I always admired here); I want to go back and read Perdita's stories (if they're still here) because I've always admired the way she writes. I'm trying to identify to qualities that I think make the stories I like good.

And I also agree with Liar that research is all well and good, but I need to be writing at the same time.

 

[Angeline]

You're trying to dance before you can walk...Research is #10 not #1, #2, #3, ...etc.

Unless you've already got a story you're working on? Toss this crap out of your head. Start with the idea. Start with the story you want to tell. Because that story isn't about a Vampire and it isn't about 1940's Jazz. It's about "Man cheats on his wife..." or "Poor girl falls for a rich man..."

Do you see? Either of those could be in 1940's Jazz world OR with a Vampire. IDEA first. Details and Research LATER. Not lesson #1. Start small.

I do. I will.

 

[3113]

How do people get ideas?

Knew you were going to ask that. People always do. "Where do your ideas come from?" Single most asked question a writer gets.

The answer: "Where do you get an inspiration for a poem? How do you decide on what it will be about?" That's where we get our ideas for stories; same place. Ideas, like inspiration for poems, can be hard--but they shouldn't be that hard. People think they need an original idea and they don't. No more than poets need an original subject to wax poetic about. Wordsworth made a career out of writing about clouds and flowers. Poets wrote about flowers before him and weren't like him, and poets have written about flowers since him and weren't at all like him. The idea doesn't need to be original--just an idea that inspires you to tell a story.

Shakespeare didn't come up with Romeo and Juliet, he stole the idea wholesale. He wrote it up his way, and others have done it their way. Not an original idea, but one that makes a hell of a good story.

Ideas should be a fairly easy step, and an inspirational one. The next step, turning them into stories, is where it starts to get hard

 

[cloudy]

I'll be glad to help.

(I've been told I'm a good editor)

 

[Angeline]

Knew you were going to ask that. People always do. "Where do your ideas come from?" Single most asked question a writer gets.

The answer: "Where do you get an inspiration for a poem? How do you decide on what it will be about?" That's where we get our ideas for stories; same place. Ideas, like inspiration for poems, can be hard--but they shouldn't be that hard. People think they need an original idea and they don't. No more than poets need an original subject to wax poetic about. Wordsworth made a career out of writing about clouds and flowers. Poets wrote about flowers before him and weren't like him, and poets have written about flowers since him and weren't at all like him. The idea doesn't need to be original--just an idea that inspires you to tell a story.

Shakespeare didn't come up with Romeo and Juliet, he stole the idea wholesale. He wrote it up his way, and others have done it their way. Not an original idea, but one that makes a hell of a good story.

Ideas should be a fairly easy step, and an inspirational one. The next step, turning them into stories, is where it starts to get hard

In my poems I write about my childhood memories, experiences, people I love or dislike (I wouldn't say hate; I'm not much of a hater). I write about music. Many of my poems are narrative, but poems don't really need a plot. You can get by on images and startling language.

I think you're right about the reading. I'm going to read alot again today. Then I'm going to start writing something to submit here. Gotta start somewhere.

 

[Angeline]

I'll be glad to help.

(I've been told I'm a good editor)

Thank you. I've heard that about you, too. I'll be asking. Thank you all, such goodhearted, generous people!

 

[TxRad]

Welcome to the dark side of writing. I tried my hand at a couple of poems and decided I was better off as a story teller. I won't call myself a writer yet as I'm still learning.

Ideas or should that be IDEAS.

For me ideas are easy. I have a few hundred stories stated and waiting for me to have time to finish them. Wants some.

I get the ideas from pictures, conversations, things I see or read. They are everywhere. Take a picture that catches your eye. Put it up as a screen saver and look at it. Every picture is a thousand word story if its any good at all. All you have to do is let it out.

Don't worry about category or time period, or even where the story is going. Your characters will tell you all that after you throw them out on the table. Be careful though, they have ideas sometimes that you are not ready to explore and they run every which way when you are not watching them carefully.

Characters.

Those people you love or dislike. There are your characters. The bum on the corner. Everyone and anyone is a potential character. Watch people. That is character development. Some people write out elaborate detailed character maps. some don't. I'm of the latter class. I take notes on my characters in longer peices just so I keep them consistent.

No for the fun part. Write. Don't sweat the small stuff at first. Just jump in with both feet and write. So it stinks. Close it out (don't throe it away. it will become a gold mine later) and go again. You learn to write like anything else by doing.

So much for chapter one

 

[Angeline]

Welcome to the dark side of writing. I tried my hand at a couple of poems and decided I was better off as a story teller. I won't call myself a writer yet as I'm still learning.

Ideas or should that be IDEAS.

For me ideas are easy. I have a few hundred stories stated and waiting for me to have time to finish them. Wants some.

I get the ideas from pictures, conversations, things I see or read. They are everywhere. Take a picture that catches your eye. Put it up as a screen saver and look at it. Every picture is a thousand word story if its any good at all. All you have to do is let it out.

Don't worry about category or time period, or even where the story is going. Your characters will tell you all that after you throw them out on the table. Be careful though, they have ideas sometimes that you are not ready to explore and they run every which way when you are not watching them carefully.

Characters.

Those people you love or dislike. There are your characters. The bum on the corner. Everyone and anyone is a potential character. Watch people. That is character development. Some people write out elaborate detailed character maps. some don't. I'm of the latter class. I take notes on my characters in longer peices just so I keep them consistent.

No for the fun part. Write. Don't sweat the small stuff at first. Just jump in with both feet and write. So it stinks. Close it out (don't throe it away. it will become a gold mine later) and go again. You learn to write like anything else by doing.

So much for chapter one

This is excellent advice. I especially like the idea of the screensaver photo. For me, ideas truly are the hardest part, that and thinking an idea is good enough to go with it. I can write till the cows come home once I accept an idea would work. I'm currently reading and jotting down ideas as I read. Being the ultimate Gemini, I could analyze ideas forever so I have set myself a deadline (5 this afternoon) to pick one and start writing. That's the second hardest part for me: just going with it and allowing myself to stink (at least in the first draft). So I'ma just close my eyes, hold my nose and dive.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thank you, L-Man. Character development is what frets me most of all. I'm so used to fitting it all into 20 or 30 lines. I fear I'll just run out of ideas. I want to believe that the imagination just keeps it rolling and the characters come to life. That's what happens, right?

Oh, hell yeah! You'll find that, as you put your characters through their paces, little things will pop into place. Every thing they do and say will bring them into focus.

The minimum for posting to Lit is only 750 words. You should be able to craft some lovely little gems.
Try something small; One of my favourites is; she wants to get laid.
That's her goal. Will she get laid? Will the object of her desire want her? Will it be good once they're between the sheets? Will they want to do it again?

Almost every time, my answers to all of those questions is "yes!" and I tell you, it never gets stale.

 

[Liar]

You're trying to dance before you can walk...Research is #10 not #1, #2, #3, ...etc.

Unless you've already got a story you're working on? Toss this crap out of your head. Start with the idea. Start with the story you want to tell. Because that story isn't about a Vampire and it isn't about 1940's Jazz. It's about "Man cheats on his wife..." or "Poor girl falls for a rich man..."

Do you see? Either of those could be in 1940's Jazz world OR with a Vampire. IDEA first. Details and Research LATER. Not lesson #1. Start small.

Wise words. I can't remember who said it, but theres this saying that every story ever written, is one of five ancient Greek plays, dressed up in different clothing.

A bit of an exagerration, I'm sure, but there's some truth to it. There aren't as many different kinds of dramas out there as one might think. But many many settings to house them.

 

[Liar]

Thank you, L-Man. Character development is what frets me most of all. I'm so used to fitting it all into 20 or 30 lines. I fear I'll just run out of ideas. I want to believe that the imagination just keeps it rolling and the characters come to life. That's what happens, right?

Well eh, character development is easy.

1. Make a character, as that character is at one place in time. Could be someone you know, of a composite of several people you know.

2. Describe them as thoroughly as possible. Make up background stories, childhood memories... (in notes or in your mind, you can choose later what de6tails goes into the story)

3. Then start throwing things at the character. Let things happen. Let him discover his wife in bed with the paper boy. Let him forget his wallet at work. Let him meet Elvis. Attack him with rabid penguins.

4. If you have developed some basic empathy for the guy when you created him, you'll feel what he feels, and you can give him a plausible reaction. Add that to the sum of the character.

5. Repeat steps 3 and 4.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Here's an excellent book to learn from. PLOT & STRUCTURE by James Scott Bell. It has about 53 five star reviews on Amazon, and I agree its THAT good.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I steal my ideas from hmmnmm. Is he still around? I steal them from him and other people. I never know who I'm going to steal from.

He wrote some crazy story that had a thing about a lighthouse keeper beating off into the ocean and that image haunted me. I saw that lighthouse keeper in a slicker and rain hat beating off in stormy weather and in dead calm weather. I saw him standing in the window beating off outside into the sea and then I saw him standing in the living room on a hooked rug beating off into a picture of the ocean on the wall. I saw mermaids rowing him around the lighthouse in a boat as he stood in the stern and solemnly beat off into the ocean. I saw him in blue and yellow mostly

Then I wrote a story about it but the lighthouse turned into a restaurant and the lighthouse keeper was a woman. But you know, that emotional flavor was still there. I told hmmnmm I'd stolen his idea and he was pleased.

I think everyone should over-write too, like just writing the first thing that comes to mind, like "she was as good looking as razors on your shoes". Two out of three times that pretty much works. "she was as good looking as sacks of gold on a tourquoise elevator."

Help! I've got poetry!

 

[glynndah]

I like going to Google Images and typing in a very general concept, such as "romance" or "travel" or "darkness" and seeing what pops up there. Very frequently there's a picture that resonates, that I want to know more about. That's the one I write around.

 

[TxRad]

I like going to Google Images and typing in a very general concept, such as "romance" or "travel" or "darkness" and seeing what pops up there. Very frequently there's a picture that resonates, that I want to know more about. That's the one I write around.

I go to sex sites for just the same reason.

Well, that's my story anyway and I'm sticking to it. Research purposes ya know.

 

[Angeline]

God, these are all great ideas! (I don't know about Elvis, though, Liar. Maybe Lennon...although Elvis porn in Humor & Satire might work, huh?--Don't you steal that one. Dr. Mab! You'll have the damn story written by 7pm, CST.

I will check out Plot & Structure. I know grammar and style like the back of my hand; it's plot, structure and character development that I need to understand better.

And ty glynndah for the tip. That's a great idea. The Stock Xchange is another site that might be good for that.

I'm off to write now. I'm giving myself until Friday to get a story submitted. I'd cross my fingers but it's too hard to type that way.

 

[glynndah]

There's a challenge up in fem's thread you might be interested in. PM her and ask if you can join in. 500 words would be a good way to get your feet wet.

 

[3113]

Slow down!

God, these are all great ideas! (I don't know about Elvis, though, Liar. Maybe Lennon...although Elvis porn in Humor & Satire might work, huh?--Don't you steal that one. Dr. Mab! You'll have the damn story written by 7pm, CST.

I will check out Plot & Structure. I know grammar and style like the back of my hand; it's plot, structure and character development that I need to understand better.

Aaaargh! You're doing it again! Look, far be it from me to tell a determined Gemini to slow down but SLOW DOWN!

You toss out questions about character, plot, setting to writers and they can't help but answer you...but that's like tossing requests off a menu into the kitchen. The kitchen brings out pancakes and a t-bone steak and quiche and pie and caviar and steamed carrots and stewed prunes and sushi and piles it all up in front of you.

Do you think you can eat all that? Yummy and delicious as it all looks, can you? In one sitting? Does it even go together? And in addition to that, you look at all this and say, "I wanna cook it all up, too!" You want to jump into the cooking challenges being offered that people are also telling you about?

Please, listen. I've taught writing, I know what you're feeling and wanting and trying to do. I understand your eagerness. But if you try to use and absorb all these good ideas at once, you won't end up with a story. Trust me. You won't. Because you're jumping from step to step. It's like learning musical notes on one hand yet also demanding that people show you complex cords on a piano and a flute and a violin. And this is all supposed to come out as music...how?

Idea. Remember? Lesson #1. Read stories. Come up with six ideas.

THEN post your ideas here in this thread. THEN we'll start to talk about the next step which is understanding character, plot and setting. All of which jump off from the idea and each other. All of which have to go together.

Ideas. That's your appetizer. Coming up with ideas. Enjoy the appetizer. Enjoy coming up with story ideas. Coming up with characters, plot and setting will wait till you're done. I *promise* you, it will wait and it will stay hot and delicious while you finish up this first course.

And if you ask, is this how we write stories? No. Not always. Sometimes they start with a character or setting instead of an idea. But we're pros, right? You don't say to someone, "Here's a dozen ways you can write a poem, now write one." You start with a single step to get them to see the idea of poetry writing, and when they get that idea, then they can do it however they like.