I live on a small, multi-racial island...

[p_p_man]

alongside a mixture of most other races.

I've just seen Diane Abbot, one of our Members of Parliament, and black, complaining that black youngsters do not stand a chance in the UK because of discrimation in education and society. A constantly repeated topic over here.

Yet I have never heard this repititious whinging from the Chinese, Pakistanis, Indians, Kosovans, Jews, asylum seekers from all countries and anyone else I might have missed out.

Does the real reason for general black failure lay in their culture and their fixation on being victims of the slave trade?

Or, as a prominent columnist wrote, are they more interested in "gold chains than working with brains"?

I don't know. All I do know is that I get fed up with hearing poor excuses, churned out by a section of the community, for their own lack of advancement,

pp

 

[sch00lteacher]

*Searching for a ten foot long pole, to not touch this thread with*

 

[Pechorin]

So you want someone to bite..

..hey I'll bite first.

Every man women and child deserves to be treated with respect. A lot of people in the UK are not afforded that respect, primarily due to the colour of their skin.

Racism does exists in the UK (gasps stage right) and some people get a raw deal out of it. Some people fight against it, others are not able to do so quite so easily and look to the more successful, like Diane Abbott to help. She's an MP representing her constituents.

And what's with regurgitating that shit written by the "prominent" columnist. They're controversial to sell papers and keep themselves in the news.

Bit like your good self really?

 

[Smilodon]

You're certianly treading on dangerous ground, but hey it's discuaaion like this that make life interesting.

I think there are a lot of strong emotions involved in this issue which is part of the problem - bitterness and pride on the part of the black community (yes, I am aware that I am generalising), and guilt on the part of the white population of this country. Until we start working together to better our country these feelings will not reduce.

It really frustrates me that people can't just say 'this is my country, this is your country, therefore we are neighbours, brothers, sisters etc'

Who fucking cares what colour people are or where they are from originally?

Smiley

 

[Pechorin]

Who fucking cares what colour people are or where they are from originally?

Smiley

Saved the best til last Smilodon.

 

[SINthysist]

People are clannish, There is always an us vs. them.

I agree that the slavery stick is in danger of becoming a permanent part of our culture, never to be relinquished.

Have you read any of Pat Buchanon's pieces?

 

[Cheyenne]

alongside a mixture of most other races.

I liked visiting London and some of the ethnic areas (stuff I was looking to buy happened to be there.) Blacks seemed to be part of every day society to me. I saw them on the tube, dressed well, heading off to work just like everyone else. Same with lots of other nationalities- many more than live in my corner of the Midwest. London reminded me of New York City. As you described, a mixture of most other races all on a small island. I thought that was a good thing.

I can't comment on "general black failure" since that isn't what I saw.

 

[EthiopianPrince]

I disagree completely. What you're really seeing is the Black as portrayed by the majority White media. Most Black people are hard-working, church going socially conservative people like the rest of the population. But whiners make better stories.

Take myself, GuyJD, Marxist, and Daughter, for example. None of us have whined about slavery and we've been on this board for ages. PP Man and Synthesist, are we invisible to you because we don't whine? You are only seeing the black people you WANT to see.

 

[Cheyenne]

*bump*

There have been threads here about slavery and whether later generations should receive payments from the government, or apologies. Search still doesn't work though, sorry.

 

[p_p_man]

Those of you who live in the UK...

what I'm talking about when I say that we seem to see and hear a lot about how society has let black people down, especially young black people. Yet people like Diane Abbot is, as Pechorin says, an MP repesenting her constituents. To me that means all constituents, black white and brown. To her it seems to mean black constituents.

Some of you may remember Bernie Grant the black MP for Tottenham in London. When PC Blakelock was hacked to death by a machete wielding black mob during the riots of 1985 on Broadwater Estate, Tottenham, Grant made his now "famous" retort that ""What the police got was a bloody good hiding.".

This was a man who later became one of Britain's first black MPs voted in by a majority of black votes.

He used inflammatory language to further his own aims. He too shouted a lot about black youths not being given the chance by society that they deserve.

With a role model like Bernie Grant and a spokesperson like Diane Abbott it would appear that blacks actually believe what they see and hear about themselves and accept their lot without question.

A few friends of my own say that they, too, are sick and tired of being lumped in with the crowd and portrayed in the negative. As one of them said to me last week, "Let the fuckers get on with their lives as long as they don't interfere with mine."

I think the large minority do believe what they hear about themselves and are quite happy to go along with it.

After all it's good to be a victim. You don't have to do anything to improve yourself. What's the point if your black?

pp

 

[zantac666]

Hi growing up some off my best friends were black. I was taught never use the n word witch is nigger i don't like the word but one day when i was doing a report i found a item onthe word it did not start out to be racist it was mentto be a lable from were they came from but when people look at a word spelled niger they say it wrong and then some idiot added a g. But i agree it's the whinners that make the news. I was brought up if you wnt to make something of yourshelf then you have to work hard for it.

 

[Juspar Emvan]

Hey I live on a small multi racial island too! And it's interesting that here we have political seats that you can only stnad for, or vote in, if you're a maori. We have maori MP's here who constantly give us the same message as you mentioned, "The Maori are disadvantaged! It's not faaaaair."

Yet we never have those complaints from the Koreans, Malaysians, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laoations, Chineese, Samoans, Tongans, Fijians, Cook Islanders, Slovakians, Turks, Croatians, etc., etc. And the Maori seem to have about 5 times as many people on welfare and in prison (per capita) as any other culture in our society. Perhaps it's time people actaully started taking responsibility for thier own positions in life? I mean, did you know we can actaully be accountable for the decisions we have made?

 

[bluespoke]

p_p_man

Oh how I would love to hear you repeat those comments in Brixton!

You are oversimplifying the situation. Of course there are black people who fit your stereotype. There are also loads of whites, Asians etc (by the way Jews are not a nationality or a colour) who fit this stereotype too.

What various reports have discovered, and Diane Abbot has spoken on before, is the fact that there is a larger proportion of black people affected by this malaise than other ethnic groupings.

I have, over many years, had many black friends both from Africa and the Carribean. Not one has ever mentioned the slave trade except when telling jokes against themselves.

Some were immigrants, some were second or third generation Britons. Some had degrees, some didn't.

I don't have the answer to the problem, but unlike you I am not going to use a thread on this board to insult a whole ethnic grouping.

If all blacks have no chance in this country because of discrimination in education and society then how come we have black members of parliament, judges, lawyers, university professors,doctors and nurses. Included in all those groups are black women as well as black men.

You know as well as I do, that being a politician of any colour, Diane Abbot will use the media to progress her point by exaggeration, just like you have.

 

[Topher]

I'm gonna shoot off my mouth about this too.
I've often had the same thoughts a ppman on this issue.
Instead of writing another essay, like I always do in my posts,
I just make some observations:

Blacks haven't had as much experience as Jews, for example,
in being discriminated against.

The Jews have a lot to teach.

Blacks are more easily picked out as targets than other minorities

When I worked in London I used to see "Brixtonians" on the Tube and noticed how they dressed and tried to act American black. If one of these guys opened his mouth, however, it was immediately apparent that *I* was more "black" than he could ever be

Oversimplification: Jews are successful because they work together. Intraracial envy is not an issue (aside from a healthy incentive for personal ambition). Blacks tend to war on each other. You could substitute Asian-American for "Jew" above in the US.

 

[Juspar Emvan]

Back up a bit Bluespoke. Looks to me like PP man said that the MP in question was articulating the stereotype, and the he was lamenting how words like that create a self fulfilling prophecy.

Of course I could be wrong, but perhaps you better think a little harder before your fingers hit the keyboard?

 

[Topher]

Clarification

I just read my reply and decided it could be misinterpreted.
I was basically saying that people on boths sides of the issue are correct. I used the Jews a lot in comparison because:

Jews are possibly the hardest "minority" to detect in the white world.

Blacks are possibly the easiest minority to detect.

So blacks do receive more discrimination than other groups as a result.

But I also think that Jews have been working together for survival as a culture for millennia. Former slaves are from many different cultures and had to build one from scratch after having been depatriated. So they don't have as much experience in banding together. If all the African-Americans ever unite then world, watch out!

Edited "repatriated" to "depatriated"

 

[bluespoke]

Juspar

I did think long and hard. Could I refer you to the last line of p_p_man's first post and the last three paragraphs of his second.

I accept that it it is possible that he is shit stirring but I don't think on such a subject that it is worthy of him.

I have no intention getting into an argument with you about the Maoris, I don't have sufficient knowledge.

 

[p_p_man]

Juspar

I did think long and hard. Could I refer you to the last line of p_p_man's first post and the last three paragraphs of his second.

I accept that it it is possible that he is shit stirring but I don't think on such a subject that it is worthy of him.

I have no intention getting into an argument with you about the Maoris, I don't have sufficient knowledge.

The last line of my first post

"I don't know. All I do know is that I get fed up with hearing poor excuses, churned out by a section of the community, for their own lack of advancement."

The last three paragraphs of my second

"A few friends of my own say that they, too, are sick and tired of being lumped in with the crowd and portrayed in the negative. As one of them said to me last week, "Let the fuckers get on with their lives as long as they don't interfere with mine."

I think the large minority do believe what they hear about themselves and are quite happy to go along with it.

After all it's good to be a victim. You don't have to do anything to improve yourself. What's the point if your black?"

Sorry bluespoke but I can't see those lines as shit stirring. You say yourself that:

"What various reports have discovered, and Diane Abbot has spoken on before, is the fact that there is a larger proportion of black people affected by this malaise than other ethnic groupings."

I am questioning why this is. I do believe that blacks believe the rubbish that's churned out by these reports, by Diane Abbott and by the late Bernie Grant. That they are enacting a self fulfilling prophesy.

If you've had many black friends over the years, as you say, and you have never heard them mention the slave trade then all I can assume is that they're doing it out of consideration to yourself or that your friendship was not as close as you seem to think.

It always comes up in my inter-racial discussion with people I know. It's nigh on impossible to discuss any black issue without mentioning it.

Re-reading your post I can't believe that you mean what you say. You pull up the hairy old chestnut of there being black judges, MPs, lawyers, university professors etc, etc. Well of course there are. It would be fucking surprising if there weren't, taking into consideration the high number of blacks in the population.

But there aren't that many of them. The story is different if you look at the prison population of blacks in proportion to their numbers in the UK, then you see the true negative "attitude" they have within society.

To wit, "What's the use of trying it ain't worth it I'm black!"

And I'm saying I'm tired of hearing it.

pp

 

[SINthysist]

E+Prince

"Take myself, GuyJD, Marxist, and Daughter, for example. None of us have whined about slavery and we've been on this board for ages. PP Man and Synthesist, are we invisible to you because we don't whine? You are only seeing the black people you WANT to see."


Daughter writes over my head - seems to want to intellectualize sex and I belive it is a pure animal thing, man and woman in thire "natural" state.

I did not know GuyJD is black, nor did I care. Just never had any real interaction - probably on boards at different times - or just don't see enough worthy to comment about in each other's posts.

Marxist has hateful, mean-spirited political views in which government should control every aspect of life and freedom is doled out as a reward only to those who are willing to conform to socialism's new world order. I never ignore that. MArxixt is also self-centered, i.e., you are supposed to get to know him, not vice versa...

As for yourself, and the once just named, to me you are still kinda like newbies. I am kinda slow in the head and don't participate on a lot of fluff threads (you can find me in the Lit bar, that's about it) so it takes me a long time to recognize someone (and to trust that they are not another member in sheep's clothing). I've been here since Fall/Winter '99.




Also p_p_ and I think we're the two most clever bastards on the board and are waiting for all of you out there to recognize that and reward us for our superior intellect!

 

[MunchinMark]

Another observation that I would like to make.

It seems to me that you get the most racial tension in areas where people of different ethnicities form enclaves and do not mix as readily. Brixton is an example. I cannot be sure if it is cause or effect, but in most of the country there is less racial tension and greater mixing.

A personal example. In the area wher I grew up the population was mainly white, with a reasonable assortment of eastern european, oriental and asian first and second generation immigrants. The black population was and still is virtually nil.

The immigrant population was well mixed and there was more trouble because of which part of town you were from than what tone of skin you had.

I don't bat an eyelid when someone has family in Hong Kong, or New Dheli or Dubai. I have a few friends who are black and have known them for years. But I still find myself fascinated by their skin colour.

What I am suggesting is that perhaps racial tension, and lack of opportunities and so on are the result of situations in which people are unused to racial appearance or culture. This then naturally leads to distrust and hatred, which leads to fewer opportunities (would you hire someone that you distrust?) which leads to increased crime and more hatred.

The good thing about this is that it implies that problems with race might be reduced with greater familiarity.

 

[SINthysist]

Well said, except how familiar do you have to get? It's not like we discovered each other a decade ago.

 

[MunchinMark]

If people ghetto themselves (probably not intentionally, by you never know) then they deal with people from other groups less often. Very often intentionally, either through prejudice from outside or, as is common in all of the jewish communities that I have ever been in contact with, group solidarity.

So, while you might live geographically close to a whole load of people with a different creed or culture, you can still know jack about them. That was why I included the example about the place where I grew up.

 

[SINthysist]

Hey, I live in a mostly white society, and we (loosely here) ghetto ourselves. You have the Presbeterians (sp?), Catholics, Methodists, 7th Adventists, and Quakers...

 

[MunchinMark]

Good, a test for my hypothesis.

What are relations like between the different denominations?

 

[SINthysist]

Mostly cordial although the Quakers, Mennonites, Amish are self-ostracized.

The Catholics don't march through Protestant areas of town while similary the Protestants restrain the urge to hurl rocks and molotov's.

We don't seem to have and Bapbtist bashing or Methodist mimicing, but they will do sermons about each other.

We've got a town Wicken whom everyone crosses the street for, and I'm ostrazied as the town Buddhist, only because I burn Incense and have a Buddha to keep the damn Chirstians from prosetelyzing, which is why I like the Quakers,

Except they have anarchists, or primitive views of government, contracts, military, copyright law...

Which I even have some differences with.

Here most all bad blood is caused by family and lasts for generations. That is more important than wealth, religion, or race.


But to maybe finally answer the question, which by now is obvious that I am not good at. They segregate somewhat, but tend to pull together as a community whenever something happens to the community or individual members of the community.