I have a legal question...

[WhiteRose]

Nothing that pertains to me, just something I've been curious about for awhile.

Marrying a sibling is illegal. I understand that. But my question deals more with the definition of "sibling", so if some of the more legal-minded posters here could help me determine what definition the law uses regarding marriage between siblings, I'd appreciate it.

Here are the situations I'm wondering about:

1. Blood siblings who weren't raised in the same household and are not legally related due to adoption.

2. Step-siblings raised in the same household where neither child is legally adopted by the opposing parent.

3. Step-siblings not raised in the same household (for example, an older couple marries and they each have grown children from previous marriages. Can their children legally marry? What if after the parents marry, they decide to adopt each other's grown children?)

4. Two legally adopted siblings (unrelated by birth) who are raised in the same household.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Nothing that pertains to me, just something I've been curious about for awhile.

Marrying a sibling is illegal.

I think in some states it might now be legal - something in the back of my head tells me that there are exceptions.

Here are the situations I'm wondering about:

1. Blood siblings who weren't raised in the same household and are not legally related due to adoption.

2. Step-siblings raised in the same household where neither child is legally adopted by the opposing parent.

3. Step-siblings not raised in the same household (for example, an older couple marries and they each have grown children from previous marriages. Can their children legally marry? What if after the parents marry, they decide to adopt each other's grown children?)

4. Two legally adopted siblings (unrelated by birth) who are raised in the same household.

It would vary state by state, but #1 is a false assertion; they are still legally related, but it may not be readily apparent to the issuer of the license because they probably have different last names.

#2 would depend on whether they share a mother or father; you can have a step sibling that is only related to you by reason of the marriage and you are not blood related. In that case I think it would not be illegal or you could at least get a judge to make an exception. Ditto #3.

#4 would vary by state, but at worst you could have to get a judge to make an exception.

I believe that it would be rather easy for siblings to bypass any laws if they wished; one or both of them could just change their name(s), and lie on the application.

 

[lilminx]

Re: Re: I have a legal question...

#2 would depend on whether they share a mother or father; you can have a step sibling that is only related to you by reason of the marriage and you are not blood related. In that case I think it would not be illegal or you could at least get a judge to make an exception. Ditto #3.

If they shared a parent, then they would be halfsiblings, not stepsiblings.

 

[Coralee]

If I recall correctly from high school law class, siblings are individuals related to one another through either biology or sociology. I'm not sure how it pertains to legally adult children, but if two people are raised from a young age as siblings the law looks regards them the same as biologically related siblings.

 

[Juspar Emvan]

Take the third left after Pompalier Terrace.

 

[LordKronos]

in short, what was just previously said. if you aren't blood related then its fully legal for you to marry. Once adoption has occurred then it depends on how far down the line. Normally its anything past 3rd cousins I believe but depending on the adoption(s) and how thick the blood (half / full) then by federal law its legal for 1st cousins and beyond and some states sooner. Each state has its own laws accordingly and as stated it would need to be brought before a judge of a higher ranking court of the state (usually surpreme court of the state or they will knock it down to a lower court if they see fit). HOWEVER ... its easier to get married to a sibling first by ways of secrecy and deciept then anything because it takes a lot more to nullify the marriage then to deny the marriage certificate. On a national average only 33% of "illegal" family marriages are nullified a year as to the 87% of declined marriage certificates due to "sibbling" status.

 

[Siren]

It always cracks me up

 

[LordKronos]

Re: It always cracks me up

to see people giving legal advice.........

that is not saying that you dont know the law.......

but as they say,,,,

a little legal knowledge is a very dangerous thing.

But at least the legal info is free.



and at least it is correct for the most part.......

now before you all get your panties in a wad, and say I am being elitist or condescending........let me just illuminate the situation.....

if it was a post about car engines and mechanical questions......I would leave it to those that work on engines to answer......

but for some reason, many people seem to think that they can give out legal advice, even though they never went to law school for 3 long years nor endure continuing education...

ya know, a lawyer is only about legal information, that is what the profession is........

so how come, people think they can act like a lawyer and give out legal advice when they would never try to give out other advice that they have no experience or education in?

I am curious about this

I give out advice where I know I can offer help. If I'm unsure about something I will put in there that I'm not 100% sure. If I'm less then 65% sure I just won't offer. About legal advice ... I may not be a lawyer but I did take law for 3 semesters (never got to finish a full semester for reasons I'm not discussing) and have learned enough from experience and reading law books and stuff to know a few things. There's still things I'm unsure of and don't really have the desire to go farther in law then what I already have but for the most part I know a few things. And sometimes when people give out legal advise they mostly give it out because they have either been in the same situation or know someone who has thus they offer experience.

 

[Siren]

Now you didnt listen to me

 

[CAROSI]

First cousin marriages are now legal in most states

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Re: It always cracks me up

to see people giving legal advice.........

Not getting my panties in a wad, just being anal retentive, but I wasn't giving legal advice - I was voicing my opinion. I assume that we are all adults here and anyone would be smart enough to seek legal advice from a local lawyer before acting on anything here. From the original post it sounded like White Rose was curious not seeking advice.

 

[Coralee]

If someone asks a generalized question out of sheer curiousity, I think anyone is perfectly capable of giving their opinion.

However, if a person is looking for legal adivce, you know, go see a lawyer!

 

[Coralee]

Re: Re: It always cracks me up

Not getting my panties in a wad, just being anal retentive, but I wasn't giving legal advice - I was voicing my opinion. I assume that we are all adults here and anyone would be smart enough to seek legal advice from a local lawyer before acting on anything here. From the original post it sounded like White Rose was curious not seeking advice.

OK, this just scared me!

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: It always cracks me up

so how come, people think they can act like a lawyer and give out legal advice when they would never try to give out other advice that they have no experience or education in?

I am curious about this

In spite of your extensive legal education, there are aspects of the law that you haven't encountered. Conversely, even without an extensive education on law in general, most of us have dealt with and had to understand specific instances of the law.

In a case like this question, I'll usually offer and opinion without qualifying it. When it's about a specific situation, then I'll always make it clear that I'm a layperson and only offering a layperson's opinion -- usually with a recommendation to engage a lawyer.

Almost ANY literate person can read a statute and understand it -- even without the lengthy pre-law and law degrees required to be a licensed lawyer. The only real difference between a lawyer and a lay-person is the amount of time they have to dedicate to reading obscure statures.

PS: I worry more about the amount of medical information that gets dispensed here than I do the legal opinions.

 

[WhiteRose]

Re: Re: It always cracks me up

From the original post it sounded like White Rose was curious not seeking advice.

*LOL* Yes, I was just looking for information, not advice! I have no intentions of marrying anybody related to me...or anyone at all at the moment.

Being adopted and hearing odd stories about blood siblings who find each other and end up falling in love and marrying, it just made me curious how legal the marriages are. These people are no longer considered legal siblings, and if they were adopted at birth through the State, in most cases there are NO open records available to prove that they are indeed related. Nobody could ever prove it because they wouldn't be able to get the birth information unsealed and sometimes not even if they can get to the birth information.

Take for EXAMPLE my own situation. My birthmother and birthfather were not married to each other. My birthmother was married to Jerk and was forced to flee to safety, give birth, and put me up for adoption (story's been related here before). Because she was married, her husband's name appears on MY ORIGINAL birth certificate as my father (the adoption agency refers to him as my legal father, but not my birthfather). My birthfather's name doesn't appear anywhere in any of my documents at all (not even the adoption agency has his name, though they have all his other information...description, occupation, religion, etc.)

My birthfather then went on to marry and have 3 sons and another daughter. Now, knowing that his sons are all my half-brothers, would I legally be able to marry one of them since there are no legal documents ANYWHERE showing any relationship between them and me? (remember, this is just for info only, I've never even seen these guys).

And thanks for all the replies so far

 

[Coralee]

Re: Re: Re: It always cracks me up

*LOL* Yes, I was just looking for information, not advice! I have no intentions of marrying anybody related to me...or anyone at all at the moment.

Being adopted and hearing odd stories about blood siblings who find each other and end up falling in love and marrying, it just made me curious how legal the marriages are. These people are no longer considered legal siblings, and if they were adopted at birth through the State, in most cases there are NO open records available to prove that they are indeed related. Nobody could ever prove it because they wouldn't be able to get the birth information unsealed and sometimes not even if they can get to the birth information.

Take for EXAMPLE my own situation. My birthmother and birthfather were not married to each other. My birthmother was married to Jerk and was forced to flee to safety, give birth, and put me up for adoption (story's been related here before). Because she was married, her husband's name appears on MY ORIGINAL birth certificate as my father (the adoption agency refers to him as my legal father, but not my birthfather). My birthfather's name doesn't appear anywhere in any of my documents at all (not even the adoption agency has his name, though they have all his other information...description, occupation, religion, etc.)

My birthfather then went on to marry and have 3 sons and another daughter. Now, knowing that his sons are all my half-brothers, would I legally be able to marry one of them since there are no legal documents ANYWHERE showing any relationship between them and me? (remember, this is just for info only, I've never even seen these guys).

And thanks for all the replies so far

If you have met your birthfather and your half-siblings and are well aware of the shared blood, I don't think there needs to be any legal documents in existence to consider you siblings. If you did marry one of your half-siblings, however, unless you were being completely honest when applying for the marriage licence, I think it would be possible to marry them. However, in terms of the law I not sure it would be legal.

 

[WhiteRose]

Re: Re: Re: Re: It always cracks me up

However, in terms of the law I not sure it would be legal.

What if the law itself cannot prove we're related since there exists no legal documentation of the fact at all? I guess my question is, if it's not on paper, does it exist?

And I'm still really interested in scenario #3 if anyone can address that one...the one where an older couple with grown children from other relationships marry, and the result that would have on their grown children having a relationship. Or, what if two people marry, then their divorced or widowed parents meet and decide to marry? Does that nullify their children's marriage? Or does the children's standing marriage make it impossible for their parents to marry?

 

[Weird Harold]

And I'm still really interested in scenario #3 if anyone can address that one...the one where an older couple with grown children from other relationships marry, and the result that would have on their grown children having a relationship. Or, what if two people marry, then their divorced or widowed parents meet and decide to marry? Does that nullify their children's marriage? Or does the children's standing marriage make it impossible for their parents to marry?

I think that all of the scenarios you mention are legal marriages. Since there are no blood relations involved, and you haven't mentioned legal adoption in this scenario, there are no "siblings" involved.

 

[April]

3. Step-siblings not raised in the same household (for example, an older couple marries and they each have grown children from previous marriages. Can their children legally marry?

In California, it's legal. It's happened in my family. So now we joke that part of our family tree doesn't branch.

What if after the parents marry, they decide to adopt each other's grown children?)

Don't know about the second part. Sounds like it could get messy.

 

[Coralee]

What if the law itself cannot prove we're related since there exists no legal documentation of the fact at all? I guess my question is, if it's not on paper, does it exist?

And I'm still really interested in scenario #3 if anyone can address that one...the one where an older couple with grown children from other relationships marry, and the result that would have on their grown children having a relationship. Or, what if two people marry, then their divorced or widowed parents meet and decide to marry? Does that nullify their children's marriage? Or does the children's standing marriage make it impossible for their parents to marry?

There doesn't have to be any physical documentation of the relation. So long as you admit to the half-sibling relationship, I don't think the courts need any legal documentation. If there is any doubt, the courts could always request blood tests be taken.

In terms of senario #3, adult children of an older couple who marry can legally marry one another. I don't think you can legally adopt a grown child. Even so, the individuals in question would not have been raised together, therefore, the courts probably would not view them as siblings.

 

[WhiteRose]

*has decided that the law should have absolutely no bearing on who can or cannot marry whom as long as both (or more) people are of legal age and give consent without coercion*

Why CAN'T we legally marry two people? Or three? Who makes up these cockamamie rules anyway?

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

*has decided that the law should have absolutely no bearing on who can or cannot marry whom as long as both (or more) people are of legal age and give consent without coercion*

Why CAN'T we legally marry two people? Or three? Who makes up these cockamamie rules anyway?

I've said it before here a number of times; except for issues of consent and age (cloesly related to consent), the government has no business determining who can marry who, or what a marriage is, regardless of gender, relationship, etc. - but it does. Why? So it can control the populace. Control equates to power.

All pols love power, and all goody two-shoes just have to have a say in what is good for you. So the government controls who you marry, who you are married by (by deciding what is a religion [by handing out tax breaks to official religions], who can be a religious official, and who can be a justice of the peace), where you live, what you live in (by giving home owners tax breaks vs. renters), and on and on.

Most of the power is through taxes, other power controls by law or regulations, but mostly by taxes - which is one reason why I am a strong believer in the elimination of income taxes and all deductions, exemptions and loopholes - replacing those taxes with a single rate sales tax on all retail items.