I cried when I read this

[doormouse]

I have a 6 & 7 year old. I feel for the parents.


Hal Baker's sex change at six years of age
Little Hallie Baker told her parents she would kill herself if she didn't get her way and the six-year-old was begging her parents to let her transition from female to male. For the past three years Hallie, now Hal, has had his way living as a boy at home and school. He plans to start taking hormones at the onset of puberty to stop him growing breasts. Hal's story was one of several told on the Oprah Winfrey show. Hal's mother Karen said, "She was my beautiful baby girl but from a very young age she kept saying she wanted to be a boy. We thought she was just a tomboy, then we thought she might be a lesbian. But she insisted she was a boy. We went to a therapist who said they believed Hallie was transgendered. We thought, 'Well, let's give it a try.' We let him live as a boy and he just blossomed."

This was featured in a magazine here this month, and also on Oprah. How young is too young to permit this? It has to start deeper for a kid that young. That's my opinion, but seriously, I feel for the parents here.

 

[doormouse]

http://www.queerday.com/archives/004616.html

I haven't searched much because it's just too upsetting to find more about this case, but this is the site I looked at.

As a parent, I found this so upsetting, sorry.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Transgenderism is something quite complicated that I have yet to fully understand.

Here are a few points from a couple of transgender friends of mine.

First, chances are high that when someone feels strongly enough that his gender is wrong that he/she is willing to go through the painful process of hormone therapy and surgery, the feeling is likely to be genuine.

Second, the person cannot be taken seriously unless they are advocating the change for a good amount of time. The fact that this kid (assuming that the parents are telling the truth) has been advocating the change from the point of communication (as separate from speech) would mean that the transition is likely earnest and will not be regretted later.

Personal points:

I find the kid's emo-manipulation of his parents sickening. Using threats of suicide to force his parents to buckle over as if he was a toddler demanding a candy bar will be something the parents will have to work hard to fix as the kid grows older. And they might want to reinforce this point before buckling over.

I don't "feel" for the parents as if transgenderism is some horrible disease. The kid is not going to die. The hormones and surgery will be expensive, yes, and I feel for their pocketbooks, but I don't "feel" for the difficulty they'll have raising a "different" child. All children are different, anyone who judges them against the societal average is making a grave error in child rearing.

Overall, their life will be interesting, but I find it actually comforting in a way that the child made such a mature and firm decision before hitting puberty. This way he may be saved a little bit of the craziness of transgenderism and a little of the pain.

Also, this issue isn't new. I know Allison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For comic has had a transgendering child character for about a year or so now. (This is more of a note, rather than a point, supposedly know they even have special camps designed for transgendering children and preteens).

 

[doormouse]

Thanks L_C.

There are going to be differing views to this. I wish I had a better website about the story to start with. Even the comments in the mag here were as brief (I'm guessing because of the child's age).


Seriously though. If either of my kids said this, I'd wonder why and where they got the notion. They're not 'introduced' formally to the other gender until they hit school. Sure, cousins, playgroup, friends, family, don't quote me there, but to discover the other sex in this manner at such a young age?

There are so many cases of kids regretting their decisions later in life. This particular girl is so pretty, a gorgeous looking boy too. It's just so distressing that the parents gave in, yet I DO understand why they did.

Some days we don't realise how lucky we are.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

I have no personal experience with this phenomenon, and only the information presented here, so I can have no real opinion.

Still, I would feel less disturbed had it been a boy who wished to be a girl. (Or, if we lived in a matriarchal society, with the case presented.) There can be so many other influences at work.

A six-year-old girl who wishes to be a boy is not an particularly remarkable situation, especially at that age.

A six-year-old girl who wants to be a boy and who knows how to go about it without coaching seems quite singular.

My first reaction is skepticism.

 

[snooper]

I am a little confused by the whole trans-gender phenomenon.

I always thought that the chromasomes detemined sex: XX was one and XY was the other. No half-way is possible.

If this is true, a simple test will tell you which the body is, and then any developmental faults (eg a genetic male growing breasts) can (possibly) be fixed by treatment and surgery.

If, on the other hand, in some way the mind is the determinant, and the body has to be brought into line it is a whole different problem.

As to a six year old having a sex change, I assume it took at least a year to arrange, and time before that for the child to persuade the parents. In that case we have a four year old who knows what sex (s)he wants to be???

As I recall, my four year old daughter was indistinguishable from a boy except by very intimate examination. She did (or wanted to do) everything her brothers did.

And a final thought:
Little boys like soldiers, little girls like dolls.
Big boys like dolls, big girls like soldiers!

 

[oggbashan]

I am a little confused by the whole trans-gender phenomenon.

I always thought that the chromasomes detemined sex: XX was one and XY was the other. No half-way is possible.

If this is true, a simple test will tell you which the body is, and then any developmental faults (eg a genetic male growing breasts) can (possibly) be fixed by treatment and surgery.

It isn't true. There is a significant minority of people who are not just XX or XY but somewhere in between. What sex they are assumed to be is usually decided by the attending medical staff at birth. Medics can get it wrong.

People can think of themselves as being more appropriately the 'other' sex. That is a different scenario from physically being hermaphroditic with characteristics of both sexes or having signs of neither. 'Girls' with penises or 'Boys' with vaginas are rare but do exist.

I would like to know what Hallie/Hal thought about the characteristics of boys and girls. Did her parents actually want a boy and expressed their disappointment?

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The transgendered folks I know all profess to having known it from ages as young as six. Gender dysphoria is the medical term I think and to my knowledge it has no age limit on when it manifests.

That said, at six years old I was precocious, but having specific knowledge to the point of knowing that hormones would have to be taken to arrest the developement of unwanted secondary sex characteristics seems highly unlikely. I read my first full book at six, but Treasure Island isn't a medical manuscript.

It is possible I suppose that the child is gender dysphoric and has gained a significant amount of knowledge of what "being a boy" would entail from her parents trying to disuade her.

My inital reaction was skeptisicm. After consideration, that reaction seems appropriate.

-Colly

 

[gothgodess]

Thanks L_C.

There are going to be differing views to this. I wish I had a better website about the story to start with. Even the comments in the mag here were as brief (I'm guessing because of the child's age).


Seriously though. If either of my kids said this, I'd wonder why and where they got the notion. They're not 'introduced' formally to the other gender until they hit school. Sure, cousins, playgroup, friends, family, don't quote me there, but to discover the other sex in this manner at such a young age?

There are so many cases of kids regretting their decisions later in life. This particular girl is so pretty, a gorgeous looking boy too. It's just so distressing that the parents gave in, yet I DO understand why they did.

Some days we don't realise how lucky we are.

I have three children my self and while I feel for anyone going through this I don't feel particullay disturbed by this. From what I understand this is a condition. You either have it or you don't. As for a childs awareness of his or her sex my little girl has known she was a girl and different from her brothers, father and other male relatives since she could phrase a sentance. she knows boys look one way and girls annother, she knows boys act differently from girls. She has seen programs on tv with Boys activities and girls activities. don't underestimate the intelligance and awareness of young children. Just be greatful that your children are obviously happy and secure with who they are. If they wern't they would be asking very awkward questions. My daughter is 3 1/2 now and regularly anounces she is a fairy princess and her brothers aren't cos they are boys.

What is sad is that the parents are being forced into decissions like this when Hal is still very young. thebest way to let him decide fully is to wait and see. by the time he reaches 16 he may feel different. If not then talk about treatment but not while he is 6. it is a painfull process and is a 6 year old ready for the pain.

 

[Samuelx]

This is very interesting and quite saddening at the same time. peace.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

I think I would feel better, knowing about this, if I did not know about this.

I mean, all the specific media attention about something which should be occurring behind a barrier of professional ethics and discretion.

It should NOT be fodder for TV -- no matter how much you admire Oprah.

No name released, no pictures, no parental interviews, no public appearances.

The most — if anything — we should know, should be from a report about some anonymous patient, which was picked up from some medical journal. Just that doctors are dealing with a case like this, at most.

 

[CharleyH]

Kind of weird, but I was just flipping channels, and what do you know, the exact show you are discussing is on TV. Now, I don't usually watch Oprah, but there I was watching the last half hour more because I remembered this thread than out of desire to see the topic or the show. I happened to catch the whole of this particular interview.

The appearance of a well spoken little boy who was once a little girl. He was exceptionally well versed, certainly knew more than I about this topic. The parents articulated that he wanted to be a boy at age 3, feelings of aloneness, displacement and self-hatred grew as time and life went on under the guise of a girl. Hal described it as dark. At aged 6 or there about Hal did not threaten to commit suicide, but rather the feeling of wishing to die because it was unbearable to live as a girl. Immediately, the parents sought therapy. The details of the therapy of course were not covered, however the parents did decide to allow Hal to live as a boy. The child is at 9, so it was said, much happier, and yet as a viewer, I cannot tell. An onsite psych. suggested that the therapy be continuous, as the possibility for problems and depression nearing an actual change often increase.

While I do not watch shows such as this as their value to me, (who would prefer much more in depth psychological, biological, sociological details) is minimal. However, I do think that shows such as these do, however superficial, bring topics not widely discussed or accepted, into the fore.

The fact is that Oprah is a popular show in the States, and she is admired and respected among countless Americans and others world wide, and so by her embracing ideas and lifestyles, those watching the show gain a little bit of insight and perhaps a bit more acceptance then they may have had prior to it being profiled.

VB brings up an intriguing debate though.

It is my belief that if media attention didn't focus on certain things then it would take a lot longer to become accepted into the mainstream. For example, it is much easier now then 20 years ago to be gay, to walk freely holding your partner's hand without fear of being attacked. Without media exploitation and exposure of 'gayness', would this currently be possible?

This is just one simple example there are many others, but my brain fries after 6, and well, it's almost 6.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

At aged 6 or there about Hal did not threaten to commit suicide, but rather the feeling of wishing to die because it was unbearable to live as a girl. Immediately, the parents sought therapy.

"Unbearable to live as a girl".


This sentence makes my head spin. WHY was it unbearable to be a girl? Did the parents/neighborhood/school/society make it unbearable? Did they try to form the kid into Standard Girl Type A?

I've seen myself two kids playing with make-up in a store, and their mother scolded the boy, not the girl, telling him that he shouldn't use make-up since he was a boy!

If we put kids into special boxes and don't allow them to be both masculine and feminine as they feel like, then I have no doubt that some will feel that it's unbearable. If those parents had treated Hal like a boy, would he then have been so dramatic about wanting to become a boy for real, or would he perhaps have lived the life of a boy who just happened to be without a penis?

 

[CharleyH]

"Unbearable to live as a girl".


This sentence makes my head spin. WHY was it unbearable to be a girl? Did the parents/neighborhood/school/society make it unbearable? Did they try to form the kid into Standard Girl Type A?

I've seen myself two kids playing with make-up in a store, and their mother scolded the boy, not the girl, telling him that he shouldn't use make-up since he was a boy!

If we put kids into special boxes and don't allow them to be both masculine and feminine as they feel like, then I have no doubt that some will feel that it's unbearable. If those parents had treated Hal like a boy, would he then have been so dramatic about wanting to become a boy for real, or would he perhaps have lived the life of a boy who just happened to be without a penis?

Please recall that's my perspective of what I heard. Apparently deep inner feelings that she was a boy. I didn't tape it, so can't confirm the word. Like I said, I would have preferred more thorough information.

You have a point, Svenska. Many parents genderize play as we grow. Not all, certainly my brother and I were allowed to play with whatever toys we wanted. Oh I dressed him up as a girl a few times, but there were no lasting trauma's um, as far as I know - lol

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I've watched documentaries on this subject and it can be very painful emotionally for the one going through it, even when they accept it, others have not.
I believe it to be very misunderstood and not always diagnosed correctly.