I am ashamed to be human

[Slut_boy]

My girlfriend, Kim, is an anti-vivisectionist (she opposes the use of animals for scientific experimentation). I try not to get too involved because it literally breaks my heart. Last night I looked through a pamphlet that they have put together: it is the most horrific thing that I have ever seen. I wish that I could explain how disgusted I am with people. Its fucking embarassing to be a part this species (I am sure that if visitors from the cosmos came here I would deny my membership to humankind - "by default").

Its so funny, I am involved in a lot of the cruel and inhumane treatment of people by people (especially in the war crimes area that I spend some of my time in) but nothing in my opinion comes close to the cruelty and indignant suffering senslessly inflicted on animals.

I can honestly say that I am absolutely sure there is a very special place in hell for these useless individuals. I still feel nauseaus and sick to my fucking stomach. Fuck people and fuck humankind: I have had enough of this grotesque world that has been my home for 30 odd years. I honestly need to get out of this shit-hole that we call our planet.

Of this (or for that matter of anything) I have never been more certain.

 

[Ravenloft]

Yeah, the human race can be rather shitty most of the time... But please don't give up on us all okay buddy?

 

[Becca Btr N Btr]

Just a thought...another way of seeing yourself.

I am not even a virgin yet at posting on a BB, so please be kind as I try to express my thoughts.

Slut_boy, I would offer this thought not to be a “Pollyanna”, yet to suggest that because of you and others like you, the Human Race is an amazing species to be a part of.

I make the choice to see the Human Race in a way that views nearly the opposite of what you saw. I see one human trying to reach out to others in his outrage and pain. Taking a risk and possibly showing others of similar thoughts and qualities, his view of an outrageous situation that needs to be changed. Showing them, without them even having to see the proof that you did. I think you have very openly proven that the Human Race is not found so much in the acts of those that you viewed, but in the person that you are to stand up and speak out in disgust. I see one Human that may make a difference to another and so on and so on. It is all anyone has to give to make change. By you choosing to take a stand, you will have made others think and hopefully moved another to follow your idea. With that you are making a positive change to something that is not entirely bad, and is capable as well as often in need of improvement.

I try to live by this thought… “I did then what I knew then. When I knew better I did better.” I thank you for your thoughts to remind and tell me…I know better.

Sincerely,
Becca Btr n Btr

 

[Melody_lane]

Where would the medical community be without scientific experimentation on animals?

If I had more time I would elaborate-but, I'm late for school.

 

[Gingersnap]

Slut-boy I appreciate your feelings. I think for the most part your g/f and her organization probably have raised the conciousness of many. I will however support the need for animals in research. We learn how to do procedures on dogs and other animals. If that is cruel then so be it I am cruel. I would rather do that then fumble and miss when some one your age is dying before my eyes. Sometimes hard choices have to be made. Do I like doing this of course not and the animals we use are given anesthesia and treated gently. Millions of people live today because of the medical testing of drugs and other procedures on animals. I love animals and this is part of the job that I do. I don't like it but what would you have me do?

 

[Cheyenne]

...I honestly need to get out of this shit-hole that we call our planet.

Of this (or for that matter of anything) I have never been more certain.

And how do you plan to do that? I hope you're speaking figuratively.

 

[Expertise]

I hope your speaking figuratively too SB

You touched upon a subject that tears me up.

I hate PETA but I love SOME of the things they do.

I abhor animal testing but realize its necessity in medical trials.

Nasty stuff.

 

[Nobody Special's wife]

WTF!!!

ok If We didn't have these test on these animals how would we find cures for CANCER AIDS MS DS HIV ALL SEXUAL TRANSMITTES DISEASE ALSO ALL TIMER .................................HOW THE FUCK CAN WE HELP THESE PEOPLE THAT HAVE THESE DISEASE ...UNLESS YOUR OFFEREING TO BE THE FUCKING VOLUTEER .....IF NOT SHUT THE FUCK UP .....


I HAVE TO WATCH MY OLDER PEOPLE DIE EVERY DAY BECAUSE OF ONE OF THESE DISEASE .....BUT WHAT THEY DO FIND HELPS GET CLOSER TO A CURE!!!!!!!!




THE WIFE

 

[Nogard]

A necessary evil, unfortunately. Slut Boy, you must remember that these people have an adgenda. With proper research, I believe you'll find many of the things in that pamplet misleading, outdated or just plain lies. Sure there is a lot of truth there but what do we do, start testing on humans?

 

[CW]

Re: Just a thought...another way of seeing yourself.

I try to live by this thought, "I did then what I knew then. When I knew better I did better." I thank you for your thoughts to remind and tell me,I know better.

Sincerely,
Becca Btr n Btr

An optimist that makes sense !!


And my optimistic point would be, that soon, animal testing outside of medicial testing will be a thing of the past.



I think I'm in love.

 

[Slut_boy]

My response

Of course I understand the arguments in support of some of the tests done on animals. But there are also times when the tests are senseless and brutally cruel. Some of the experiments are just not necessary. I suppose that my first point is to draw this important distinction.

I do want to add though, that I do not support any form of animal testing (eventhough I can reconsile the "necessary" from the "senseless"). I manage to live a life where I can wash my hair and brush my teeth without having to use products that are tested on animals. Not all animal testing is necessary.

People often ask me what made me become a vegetarian. I have once spoken about this on an old thread so I won't repeat the reason. But what baffles people most is my refusal to eat eggs. The response I always get is "but you aren't killing anything because the egg is infertile anyway". That isn't the point. It is the cruelty experienced by battery chickens - the absolute hell that their lives are, just so that we can eat eggs - I would rather do without than support an industry which perpetuates that kind of cruelty and suffering. The same goes for using any products that are tested on animals.

And then to Nobody Special's Wife: I am not really sure why you insulted me. I am also not really sure how to answer you ...

 

[nermal]

Why not Humans

I agree, it is important that testing be done before release of drugs onto the market place with availability to all of the Human Race. Surely, though if we are to use them then we should be the ones that they are tested upon. The testing of current aids vaccines (I'm sure there are those who will correct me if I am wrong) I believe is being done on human volunteers in the most part . What is wrong with testing in this way? Why not call for human volunteers?

We have recently had calls in our local newspapers asking for volunteers to test new drugs for various illnesses and diseases including cancer. Humans at least have the recognised cognitive qualitites to make a choice, what a shame our arrogance leads us to believe that animals don't have any sense of what it is that is happening to them.

Shame.

Slut-boy I'm with you, but there are a few of us out there and the numbers are growing. Man's inhumanity to all creatures and resources of this world is merely a symptom of the 20th century disease - GREED. This to shall pass, either through an extreme enviromental disaster or another world war. I decided today that this would be what will save us. We will be forced to change our values and live with harmony with what is left. Goddess help us.

Keep your chin up, not all of us are arseholes.

Do we offer hugs here?

Oh well to bad, I do Big hugs slut-boy, my never waivering belief is that eventually those that control now will be gone.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Vivisection is an archaic, but unfortunately, still practiced medical research procedure. It came about during Victorian, or was it Edwardian? Maybe the Regency Era? I misremember. In anycase, it started a few hundred years ago among medical practitioners who need to know more about the human body to cure their patients, but were unable to do so.

Most researchers were reduced to grave robbing, they would then cart the cadavers off to be dissected and studied.

Others, who held the sanctity of life in less regard, would send out their thugs to collect living specimens off the street. These people would normally be drugged beyond protest and then they would be dissected while alive. This procedure is called vivisection. The specimen would invariably die from such activity.

The last known case of vivisectionist activity, other than serial killers who aren't doing it to research, is Dr. Josef Eichmann who performed his experiments in Auschwitz without the benefit of drugging his specimens, unless of course their wiggling would get in the way.

Vivisection is not performed on human beings now days, as far as we know. It is performed on animals in some places where laws concerning humane treatment of research subjects hasnt been passed.

There is a fine line between animal cruelty and necessary animal cruelty. We would not have so many drugs available to cure what ails us without animal cruelty. Of course, we wouldn't have so many fine shampoos without some corporation deciding that testing on animals is cheaper than doing it the other way.

Some research is, beyond a doubt, medically necessary. In most countries where such research abounds, the animals used for testing are treated with as much comfort and humanity as they are able. In general.

For an interesting read regarding animal testing, you may want to try Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH. It's rather fascinating.

 

[Guest]

Not all of us are vultures!

 

[Nobody Special's wife]

Slut Boy

I was not pointing a fingure at you are try to insult you if I did I apologize....But I work in a homestead..I see my residents die of all kinds of disease.....I see the useless act of testing animals for shampoo (come on we could do that are selves) But to save someones life in the future ..Is more of a concern for me I have a friend the has HIV..I would love to see him live to old age but even tho...He takes these drugs as an experiment...they still can kill him I wish there were better ways to test cures for diseases that is my main concern but I want people to live their life with out pain that I see them go through everyday.....

THE WIFE

 

[ShyGuy68]

Re: My response

I have to agree with most of the people here. I too support the use of animal testing done for medical purposes. But only if it's done so the animals feel as little pain as possible.

I don't support animal testing in the cosmetic industry at all!!! There is just no reason at all for that!!

But what baffles people most is my refusal to eat eggs. The response I always get is "but you aren't killing anything because the egg is infertile anyway". That isn't the point. It is the cruelty experienced by battery chickens - the absolute hell that their lives are, just so that we can eat eggs - I would rather do without than support an industry which perpetuates that kind of cruelty and suffering.

Here in Denmark it's printed on the boxes of the eggs how the hens that lay the eggs live, so you have the possibility to choose and support the manufactors that provide good surroundings for the animals. Yes those eggs are a bit more expensive, but it's not to much in my opinion.

 

[Silverlily]

Re: Why not Humans

Surely, though if we are to use them then we should be the ones that they are tested upon. What is wrong with testing in this way? Why not call for human volunteers?
[/B]

When a baby is born prematurely, quite often the lungs are not developed fully and the child is unable to absorb oxygen through the air sacs in the lungs. An artificial surfactant has been developed that enables the infant's lungs to process oxygen, allowing the lungs to continue to develop normally.

This procedure was tested on chimps born prematurely through induced labor. No, it is not a pleasant thing, but then neither is the death of a child. As for testing these things on humans, I seriously doubt you would ever find parents willing to use their newborns as test subjects.

Having said all that, I do disagree with animal tests for cosmetic products and such. I do not patronise companies like that.

 

[naudiz]

Ashamed of being human?

You know, the human race is pretty remarkable. Sure we do things that are cruel. We're animals, and animals don't always play nice. In fact, compared to other animals, we're probably among the nicest out there.

What other animal would give a thought to the suffering and decline of another species? What animal would sacrifice resources, time, and energy to save a species that would turn around and eat them without a second thought? Grizzlies come to mind. Yes, I know that humans aren't the number one food preference for bears, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't (and haven't) snapped one down when the opportunity arose. And yet, many of the people I know don't hate the animal but rather recognize its place in the ecosystem and harbor respect for it, not mindless destructive fear.

What other species on the planet dedicates itself to compassionate causes and the preservation of a world that doesn't necessarily intend to return the favor? Humanity has a gift - free will, free choice. Some people choose to be selfish, destructive, and evil. Some people choose to take care of the human race first, then worry about Mother Nature. Some people choose to preserve the planet and all its denizens, human or not. Some extremists want to kill off their own species and save the animals.

Please don't claim that cruelty and selfishness are uniquely human qualities. There are humans that express those qualities, but to claim humanity is something to be ashamed of is a grave disservice to the people who show the equally human qualities of caring and sacrifice.

We're a strange species, but we're not all bad.

 

[Laurel]

Animal trials aren't just sadistic, they are also inaccurate. Thalidomide was tested on many animals, including chimps, before it was given to pregnant women. A diahrea medicine, tested on animals, was made available in Japan and lead to many deaths. Many, many dangerous drugs have found their way into the marketplace after being effectively tested on animals.

We are not chimps, rats, or dogs. How many times have we heard news reports of an anti-cancer drug that was effective in mice or chimps - one that they were going to start human trials on - then never heard about it again? The idea that results from mice can be extrapolated to humans is not correct the majority of the time. It's a starting point, then there must be human trials to verify the drug's effectiveness.

Why is animal experimentation still commonplace? Because it's cheaper than computer modeling and human tests. Because it's traditional. I agree there are instances in which testing drugs on animals may be necessary. However, it is waaay overused. There's a toy company in San Diego that was dropping toy motors into live piglets and turning them on to "test" their safety. A test that did not involve killing piglets or any other creature does exist, but it's too costly for them to use. It'll increase the price of the toy, they say. Pullease. A cure for cancer is one thing, but how can anyone argue that animals need to die horrible deaths for toys or cosmetics?

Jane Goodall (friend to chimps) is pro-animal testing, but she feels - as I do - that the animals should be treated with the same respect we would give a person who was sacrificing their lives for the good of humankind. They must be subjected to the least pain possible. They must be given proper living conditions. They must not be treated any worse than a human being would be treated. Currently, these wonderful creatures are often operated on without anesthetic, are allowed to develop terrible lesions and infections from poor post-operative care, are housed in the most horribly cramped and disgusting quarters.

We need to move towards more accurate ways of testing drugs and away from animal testing. Where animals are useful, they must be treated with compassion.

 

[Slut_boy]

The thing that I didn't want to happen in this thread (and I am extremely grateful that it didn't happen) is for it to degenerate into a grosetque spectacle of cruel illustrations - because god knows that there are some pretty aweful pictures of animals contorted with pain. Thats a good thing: there are plenty of hard-hitting pictures on the net for those who are curious (or who still need to be convinced). I can't handle the visuals.

I am also pleased to see that there people amongst us with blood in their veins *laughs*. This is not necessarily my view, but something for you to think about, if you like: Isn't there something inherently arrogant in assuming that your life is more important than the life of another - that it is okay to kill and inflict another with untold pain and ultimately death, just to save your life.

I am a lawyer and familiar with the legal idea behind "self-defence". I know that it is based on the premise that all life is equal and so to preserve yours you may take that of the one attacking you. An imminent attack is a threshold requirement here. Innocent life may not be taken. I am also aware that animals are afforded no rights under most legal systems (don't confuse a person being charged with an obligation to an animal with that animal actually having a right). Surely, that needs to change - in the interests of humanity. This is part of Kim's quest in life and although I am to 'soft' to stand by her totally, I have the greatest respect in the world for what she is doing.

Last year 4 million animals (dogs and cats and monkeys included) were held for animal experiments in the UK alone. Only 2.5 were used. The balance were destroyed anyway - afterall they were becoming expensive to feed and maintain. I work at a University that uses animals in the various science deparments and in the Medical School. Its disgusting.

And this is done in the name of scientific progress (of course some still haven't seen that it is also done in the name of comfort, and luxury, and vanity). Fuck progress - it seems to me that we have plunged our moral integrity into the dark ages. As Gandhi once said: "the measure of a society's advancement is reflected in the way that they treat their animals".

Yes, I still think that people are fucked up. I still think that this world is a shit-hole. As per Emmanual Kant: "out of the crooked timber of humanity nothing straight was ever made".

Why not look at some of the stuff on the web and then a long hard look into your own soul before you tell me that its okay to use animals in this way.

[Edited by Slut_boy on 11-15-2000 at 12:24 AM]

 

[Becca Btr N Btr]

You have the power to change those feelings...

Well Slut_boy...<pointing to the image I am trying to draw with my words for you to see...> I saw several ripples around the stone you cast into the water.

I was moved at the majority of the posts, and their caring about the situation even if it was something that they felt was needed.

You honestly couldn't have expected everyone to agree and completely follow your deep feelings or could you? No one here shot out and did anything to the examples you mentioned in your last post. I was proud of how others took their heartfelt feelings and still heard your feelings as well.

With that in mind, let me say that I do understand your feelings and the point you are making. What I do not understand is why you seem to be unwilling to try to understand and feel the positive things that other posters are trying to share with you?

I agree with others that posted their thoughts that the Human Race as a whole is not bad. Yes, there are some that are. I may be wrong, but I feel you are just standing tough and you seem to be unwilling to even allow yourself to be open to those of us that are trying to support you as a person.

Life can't be as you are stating an all or nothing way of life. You again throw out angry blanket statements about people and the world. To me they are painful to hear knowing I am not what you are positive I am like. Still I read them as your feelings and only wish I could help you to see that I would not judge you for them. Instead I feel a very optimistic and honest human emotion which I am all to happy to share with you. I could use many labels for this emotion, but I think I will choose "Hope". I have hope in the Human Race, and I feel hopeful after reading the other posts here, and knowing other people like these that have come together to create change.

The world is not a shit hole; it is pretty caring and evolving place. I have simple proof of that in the fact that you bothered to post your feelings to help another to understand them and choose them if they agree. People may not be everything you want or "hope" for. I am sure though that if you would really stop and listen to their feelings and points, you may find that both people as well as the world will be better simply because you cared enough to notice and maybe even thanked them for caring and sharing however they could. After all to if we desire improvement in any matter doesn’t it behoove us to first look at ourselves? For if we can begin to change ourselves we are at the core of beginning to make a change in the human race.

Sincerely,
Becca Btr n Btr

 

[Becca Btr N Btr]

Thank You!

CW...I am very greatful for your kind words and support on my first BB post. I have to say it helped alot to have you speak so glowingly of my feelings, and choice of words. It is harder than I thought to get started writing on a BB and your taking the time to give me a good feeling of how I did really means alot to me. I am looking forward to getting to know you and all BB posters Btr n Btr as I go along!

oh and especially TY for the part about:
"I think I'm in love."

That just plain made my heart race and face smile!

(((HUGS))) Becca Btr n Btr

 

[Renegade]

Well let me try to make my opinion on all of this plain and simple. Also, let me say that I can see where everyone is coming from and respect their opinions on this subject.

While I do agree that it is cruel to use animals for testing in any way, I must say that I feel it is needed at this point. It might not be pretty, and many don't want to admit this, but if it weren't for animal testing we would not have made as many breakthroughs in medicine as we have to this day. And even though I like animals, if a living creature needed to be experimented on to make these leaps in modern medicine, I would prefer they use an animal then start using other humans for this.

But I do agree that using them for cosmetics products is just stupid. I think we can do without a new type of perfume or cologne that needs animal testing. Using animals in tests for things like that is just wrong.

 

[Gingersnap]

I asked you before Slut-boy and I ask you again. What would you have us do. Your g/f has devoted her life to animal rights and I respect her point of view. Do I think animals should have the same rights as human beings. ......I think there are other more pressing issues in my opinion. There are far too many people who live without rights in this country. Children come to mind.
Change is taking place, slowly and with much creaking but it is progress. Granted it will never be fast enough for those of us in the Type AAAA catagory. Patience slut-boy,after all you are dealing with animals whose brains are still evolving.

 

[Slut_boy]

Becca, I accept your comments (and I do thank you for them). Perhaps as you get to know me better you will see that I am not intolerant of views other than my own. I am simply unable to diplomatically withhold my disgust here *laughs at the irony*. Of course, I don't seek confrontation with anybody here (if I did then 'nobody's wife would have been a perfect candidate *smiles*).

But, I too am entitled to hold a view of my own. My view on this topic, perhaps too strongly stated on this thread, is simply meant as an expression - never as defiance of the views of other members. Most understand the incredible respect that I have for this BB and those that share themselves on it. I think, Becca, that it is unfair of you to say that I don't take account of the views of others - if you look at my second post on this thread then you'll see that I do acknowledge a distinction (made by others) but I then go on to comment on this distinction at which time I dismiss it as an option for me (not necessarily as an option for other people).

And then to my dear Gingersnatch: my post before this one does in part address your question (I think). I would have people respect the life of all and not regard their's as more important. Perhaps my "egg" example wasn't a good one: wait, I have others *laughs*. Just kidding, I am sure that I have imposed myself enough on you lot already.

Thanks for listening *redundant statement over the internet* and thanks for the feedback.

[Edited by Slut_boy on 11-15-2000 at 03:38 AM]