I am ashamed. I posted an immoral story.

[Roxanne Appleby]

I am posting this because I have come to respect the good and creative people here, and want to be worthy of this community. I am ashamed because the first story I posted here was immoral.

No, I have not suddenly become a religious fanatic. The celebration of human sexuality, writing erotica and reading it are good things and contribute to living The Good Life.

My culpability is based on real morality, not an imaginary one. I offer this post not as an excuse, because I should have known better, but as an explanation.

When I wrote my first piece of sexual fiction six months ago I had never heard of Literotica. My models were the tawdry “dirty books” that in my youth were passed among the horny adolescent boys, and similar material seen today on some Web sites.

I followed a corrupt model and created a corrupt work. My self esteem is somewhat salvaged by this: Once the characters were interacting outside the artificialities of an immoral “set-up,” that immorality disappeared, and this became a hot and healthy story representative of who I am rather than the corrupt model. This is the defense I offer on behalf of most readers who responded favorably in voting, comments and notes.

But that original set-up was indefensible, and the story’s preface was obscene. This was all pointed out in an anonymous public comment – possibly from one of you. The Literotica community has educated me in many ways, so I knew at once the writer was correct, and felt shame. I have posted an alternative version that removes the immoral material and leaves the unobjectionable main body intact.

I apologize to the other authors in the category who had their own work tarnished by proximity to my trash. The blighted property has been cleaned up and the neighborhood is respectable again. My other stories have no similar problems.

I apologize to Literotica. The immoral elements were hidden behind a fig leaf just large enough to slip the story past this wonderful Web site’s usual due diligence.

Roxanne Appleby

 

[sophia jane]

Immoral how? Very interested to hear the background on your comments.

I don't know that any of my stories are moral.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

If you want to plug your story and make us interested in reading it, just SAY so. It's accepted behaviour around here.

 

[MichelleLovesTo]

Immoral how? Very interested to hear the background on your comments.

I don't know that any of my stories are moral.

Yes, I'm really curious now.

I'm not sure that I think a fictional story can be immoral. Especially not something in a field that is all about escapism and fantasy.

Acting on some fantasies or recreating some stories in reality, well, that might be immoral.

 

[Alex De Kok]

If you want to plug your story and make us interested in reading it, just SAY so. It's accepted behaviour around here.

Now, that's what I like to see! Telling it like it is!

Go read mine! Contest entries, that is!

Alex

 

[MichelleLovesTo]

If you want to plug your story and make us interested in reading it, just SAY so. It's accepted behaviour around here.

Yeah, but there is no link. When I whore my work, I make it easy for others.

 

[TheEarl]

Yeah, but there is no link. When I whore my work, I make it easy for others.

It's good technique. This way she's not getting us to read one, but read all of her stories in an attempt to find which is the immoral one.

On a serious note, do tell. I'm curious to see what you'd regard as immoral.

The Earl

 

[BlackShanglan]

"The English public, as a mass, takes no interest in a work of art until it is told that the work in question is immoral, and your reclame will, I have no doubt, largely increase the sale of the magazine; in which sale, I may mention with some regret, I have no pecuniary interest ..."

--- Oscar Wilde, to the St. James Gazette, 25 June 1890.


My only objection to the initial post is the distinction between "real" and "imaginary" morality. I think it sufficient to differ with others on what is moral or immoral without denigrating them with the charge that their morals are imaginary. I do not think that any moral standard to which supporters of the standard attempt in good conscience to adhere could fairly be termed "imaginary," although I might think their efforts mistaken or misdirected. I would reserve "imaginary" for those convenient moral standards that supporters apply only to others and do not seek to follow themselves.

Shanglan

 

[yui]

It's good technique. This way she's not getting us to read one, but read all of her stories in an attempt to find which is the immoral one.

On a serious note, do tell. I'm curious to see what you'd regard as immoral.

The Earl

The ... oh, wait, you aren't talking to me .... I could post immoral pictures I suppose ... nevermind.

 

[Guest]

Silly thread.

"There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written." - Oscar Wilde

 

[Alex De Kok]

Silly thread.

"There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written." - Oscar Wilde

Just when I am losing faith, the Oracle of San Francisco speaks, and lo!, the world settles, and I can see again.

Bless you, sister.

Alex

PS: I'm off to bed. Too much single malt!

 

[Guest]

I'm off to bed. Too much single malt!

Sleep well, friend.

Perdita

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

"If you want to plug your story and make us interested in reading it, just SAY so. It's accepted behaviour around here."

No, no, no, no - that is not what I am doing, and I'm sorry you have received that perception. I am quite happy to come right out and plug my stories, and do so here frequently. Besides, there is nothing to make you interested in anymore - the immoral elements of the story are gone without a trace.

"Immoral how? Very interested to hear the background on your comments."

This is painful. I am not trying to glory in this.The anonymous comment I referred to said this: "The story is written like a cold and calculating 'How to' guide for male pedophiles."

I posted this thread because some of you may have read the story and arrived at he same conclusion, which I believe was correct. I also believe that this element of the story, since removed, was not a true reflection of who I am. If it was I wouldn't give a damn and would have just cranked out more of the same.

 

[TheEarl]

"If you want to plug your story and make us interested in reading it, just SAY so. It's accepted behaviour around here."

No, no, no, no - that is not what I am doing, and I'm sorry you have received that perception. I am quite happy to come right out and plug my stories, and do so here frequently. Besides, there is nothing to make you interested in anymore - the immoral elements of the story are gone without a trace.

"Immoral how? Very interested to hear the background on your comments."

This is painful. I am not trying to glory in this.The anonymous comment I referred to said this: "The story is written like a cold and calculating 'How to' guide for male pedophiles."

I posted this thread because some of you may have read the story and arrived at he same conclusion, which I believe was correct. I also believe that this element of the story, since removed, was not a true reflection of who I am. If it was I wouldn't give a damn and would have just cranked out more of the same.

I think the posts about plugging and self-publicising were just jokes.

I also think the anonymous commenter was talking bollocks. My NaNo has a very detailed description of someone cutting their wrists in the first chapter. If someone told me that I was writing a cold and calculating How-To for suicidal people, then I'd tell them to shove it up their arse. It's a story. It's fictional. That means anything, whether moral or immoral is acceptable. Don't like it, don't read it.

If it makes you uncomfortable to have written it, then by all means change it, but don't remove a chunk of your story just because some wanker tells you you're writing a How-To. You're not. You're writing a story.

The Earl

 

[amicus]

Roxanne:

Your speaking of 'morality' on this site is somewhat of a wasted effort, most here don't accept the word as having a definable meaning.

Although many here have exposed enough of their personal events to declare that in real life, they do have and practice a moral code, in their literature and posts, they claim there is no such thing.

I accept your explanation of that first piece of yours, just as I shudder to think of some of my first descriptions of sexual activity and what the participants felt and thought.

I think we learn by doing and even the critics do help...sometimes.

Good luck on your fiction.

amicus...

 

[TheEarl]

Roxanne:

Your speaking of 'morality' on this site is somewhat of a wasted effort, most here don't accept the word as having a definable meaning.

Although many here have exposed enough of their personal events to declare that in real life, they do have and practice a moral code, in their literature and posts, they claim there is no such thing.

I accept your explanation of that first piece of yours, just as I shudder to think of some of my first descriptions of sexual activity and what the participants felt and thought.

I think we learn by doing and even the critics do help...sometimes.

Good luck on your fiction.

amicus...

What???

The Earl

 

[Pure]

Puzzled

Roxanne said,

This is painful. I am not trying to glory in this.The anonymous comment I referred to said this: "The story is written like a cold and calculating 'How to' guide for male pedophiles."

RA also referred to an 'immoral set up' or premise in the story.

The comment of the critic strikes me as trite. It can be leveled at all fiction that does not preach, that simply tells a story. I know this is not Ayn Rand's favored approach, but that may account for her not writing any true classics.

A story of the details of a murder and the culprit's efforts, perhaps successful for a while, to avoid the police could certainly be labeled as a 'how to' manual for murder.

Sex education manuals that describe masturbation, sodomy, etc. are commonly held, by the 'right,' to be recommending the acts. Explaining condoms to teens is likewise telling 'how to' have premarital sex.

Presumably you told of an older male unscrupulously seducing ('taking') a younger female or male. Perhaps the younger one was depicted as enjoying it, and no cops came, in the end, to arrest the seducer.

These sorts of 'immoral premises' are common as crab grass in literotica stories. They are the defining terms of several categories!

In any case, I fear the effort to write sexually explicit stories with moral uplift will creat a literary disaster-- not to speak of incurring universal condemnation: from us immoralists for the 'uplift'; and from the 'uplift' and values folks for the sexual details, which will, despite your attempts, be construed as 'how to.'

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Pure - I don't want to create stories with "moral uplift," although I do enjoy creating characters who are virtuous but no less randy and gloriously in touch with their sexuality. I agree with you about the shortcomings of Rand's novels qua novels.

As you suggest, it would be silly to describe a "story of the details of a murder and the culprit's efforts to avoid the police" as a "how to" model for homicide, and there is nothing intrinsically immoral about such a story. And I share your dismissal of "the (religious) right's" contention that sex education manuals for minors that describe masturbation, sodomy etc. are necessarily "recommendations" to do these things.

But that does not mean a book that glorifies murder and portrays the murderer as a sympathetic character with whom the reader identifies is not an immoral book. I don't mean the abused-woman-who-strikes-back murderer. I'm talkng about the malicious-racist-who-lynches-for-pure-hatred murderer. And I also am not talking about the psychological study that seeks to impart understanding - "In Cold Blood." Envision instead "KKK porn." "SS porn."

I am speaking academically, now - my offence was not nearly so egregious. But this is the way in which I disagree with what Oscar Wilde and some here have written - a story can be immoral.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Unless it's child porn, I doubt it was truly immoral.

 

[Tom Collins]

Books/stoies, music, movies, etc...
They aren't immoral. They are mearly a reflection of the reality of the human condition.
Morality is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. It's a matter of opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and everyone thinks everyone else’s stinks.
First, do no harm. If you remamber that then you can live happy.

 

[BlackShanglan]

If you truly concur with your critic's evaluation of your story, then I believe that you did the right thing. Having not read the story, I cannot say; if, however, you felt that the end result of it was to strengthen tendencies best discouraged and to glorify dangerous and vicious tendencies, then I think you right to change the story. Yes, it's true that Wilde said that there is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. However, his only novel has quite a clear moral - he said himself that the chief difficulty was in trying to keep it from becoming too obvious. He portrays vice, indeed - but he also punishes it, and shows the ugliness it creates in those who engage in it.

Personally, I think it both wise and responsible to consider what one might stir in one's readers. Some behaviors do not require reinforcement.

Shanglan

 

[Liar]

What it all comes down to, it that if you realised that you didn't like the premises of your story, you can do whatever you want with it.

 

[impressive]

If you truly concur with your critic's evaluation of your story, then I believe that you did the right thing. Having not read the story, I cannot say; if, however, you felt that the end result of it was to strengthen tendencies best discouraged and to glorify dangerous and vicious tendencies, then I think you right to change the story. Yes, it's true that Wilde said that there is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. However, his only novel has quite a clear moral - he said himself that the chief difficulty was in trying to keep it from becoming too obvious. He portrays vice, indeed - but he also punishes it, and shows the ugliness it creates in those who engage in it.

Personally, I think it both wise and responsible to consider what one might stir in one's readers. Some behaviors do not require reinforcement.

Shanglan

Well said, Shang.

 

[TheEarl]

Pure - I don't want to create stories with "moral uplift," although I do enjoy creating characters who are virtuous but no less randy and gloriously in touch with their sexuality. I agree with you about the shortcomings of Rand's novels qua novels.

As you suggest, it would be silly to describe a "story of the details of a murder and the culprit's efforts to avoid the police" as a "how to" model for homicide, and there is nothing intrinsically immoral about such a story. And I share your dismissal of "the (religious) right's" contention that sex education manuals for minors that describe masturbation, sodomy etc. are necessarily "recommendations" to do these things.

But that does not mean a book that glorifies murder and portrays the murderer as a sympathetic character with whom the reader identifies is not an immoral book. I don't mean the abused-woman-who-strikes-back murderer. I'm talkng about the malicious-racist-who-lynches-for-pure-hatred murderer. And I also am not talking about the psychological study that seeks to impart understanding - "In Cold Blood." Envision instead "KKK porn." "SS porn."

I am speaking academically, now - my offence was not nearly so egregious. But this is the way in which I disagree with what Oscar Wilde and some here have written - a story can be immoral.

I happen to think that it is perfectly acceptable to write a story with an anti-hero. As we're quoting famous authors today "There is nothing either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so." I'd say some of my favourite books get thoroughly inside the head of a very bad person.

However, as you aren't happy with the piece in question, then you've done the right thing.

The Earl

 

[Stella_Omega]

If you truly concur with your critic's evaluation of your story, then I believe that you did the right thing. Having not read the story, I cannot say; if, however, you felt that the end result of it was to strengthen tendencies best discouraged and to glorify dangerous and vicious tendencies, then I think you right to change the story. Yes, it's true that Wilde said that there is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. However, his only novel has quite a clear moral - he said himself that the chief difficulty was in trying to keep it from becoming too obvious. He portrays vice, indeed - but he also punishes it, and shows the ugliness it creates in those who engage in it.

Personally, I think it both wise and responsible to consider what one might stir in one's readers. Some behaviors do not require reinforcement.

Shanglan

Poor little Oscar.. He never wrote an "immoral" word in his life, and he was pilloried for his beastliess. That dear, kind, sentimental, picket-fence man would be astounded and horrified by our freewheeling genders and habits of expression...
That being said, Roxanne, I say- if your words offend you, kick the little bastards out! I agree with you and Shanglan, in feeling that some details don't need explication, that there is a line between erotic titillation and... um... shit, I don't have the word for it right now- glorification of social desease or something like that-
I further freely admit that MY line, for instance, lies a long way past the edge of many other peoples. (I just got a shocked note about "Passing the torch" the most inoffensive story I've ever written) And of course, many writers here see their line further past mine. BUT- that line is mine, and I will hold to it. For myself.
As should you, and anyone else who writes- and make no apologies about it.

You could have as easily titled this thread; I am glad, I corrected a moral error