I agree with PP-man on one thing, Israeli propaganda is BS!

[Frimost]

They have been trying to link Palestinian "terror groups" with OUR Islamic enemies. Do Palestinian groups use terror tactics? Yes. Can the Fatah wing of the PLO be considered a terrorist organization? Perhaps. Are they radical ISLAMIC militants with links to Osama Bin Laden? NOOOOOOOO!

Let them fight their own battles, I am sick of the pro-Israeli Jewish lobby here in the U.S. promoting it's own special interests by trying to lump the Palestinians with the Islamic terrorist network. Let them do their own dirty work, we are not their lackeys (or at least shouldn't be).

Any person who knows anything about the groups in the region knows that the PLO is a secular socialist organization, NOT a radical Sunni Wahabist movement!

What spurred this post?


Read this and find out why I brought this up in the firt place

BTW-way to go Fatah, and I am not being sarcastic there either, the more you kill the less we have to!

 

[Jabo 69]

Anti-Semitism

Frimost---You're just another damn stupid anti-Semite..Israel is the only damn friend and ally we have and you know it..The whole damn Arab world-including the Palestinians-hate America and want to do us in...Israel should conquer Gaza and the West Bank and kick the Palestinians completely out.....

Anybody that agrees with that Limey idiot-p-p man is bound to be a complete moron.....


<MYSTIC'S TROLL>

 

[Frimost]

Anti-Arabism

Actually the Arabs ARE a Semitic people moron; they are both the same race, only religion separates them. Have you ever wondered HOW a Palestinian bomber was able to get past Israel's security simply by dressing like an orthodox Jew? Its because they all look alike because they ARE alike in blood and genetics! Duuuuhhhhh!!!!

The reason most of the Arab world hates us is because we are so partisan knee-jerk pro-Israeli. If we finally dropped them like the bad habit they are (much like cigarettes) then only a portion of the Arab world would still hate us. I would rather be hated by only some of the 1.2 billion Muslims in the world then by ALL!

As for Arab allies, what ever happened to Jordan, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, UAE, and Morocco? The last time I checked they were our allies AND the majority of their people were as well (or al least fairly ambivalent about us).

Israel is no true friend of anyone. All the technology we have given to them for their F-16 fighters has been turned right around and sold to the Red Chinese for a profit behind our backs (see the latest J-12 fighters in China). So fuck Israel, they want to play their little games then let them go it alone for once.

 

[70/30]

I don't feel like reading a link but I saw a re-airing on CSPAN2 of a talk Bob Novak gave to the Young Conservative Convention on 7/25/02. The college CONs were 100% Pro-Israel this and that but Bob knocked them down by saying the two people that are determined to prevent peace are ultimately Arafat and Sharon and the only way out was compromise and a good settlement. Hearing him being evenhanded and being somewhat of a critic of the current conservative administration does more than episodes and episodes of him being a jackass on Crossfire. You could see the difference between a conservative that formulates and believes in everything he says and some sheepish college CONs.

 

[Frimost]

YEAH SOME FREIND ISRAEL IS!

Keep in mind this happened DURING the regime of commie MilosoBitch, err.. I mean Milosevic. Also, this occurred right before we went to war with Serbia at a time everyone knew we were about to launch air-strikes to try and kick them out of Kosovo.
This is from The Jane's defence site:

01/04/99

The Serbia-Israel connection


ISRAEL has received an urgent Serbian request for military supplies, according to FOREIGN REPORT's Israeli sources. The Serbian government, through a senior Israeli diplomat, has presented its shopping list of military equipment, medicines and credit. The Israeli response is not known.

Military ties between the Israelis and the Serb regime led by Slobodan Milosevic started in 1992 when a delegation from the Israeli defence ministry arrived in Belgrade, the Serbian capital, to try to sell arms to Serbia. According to the report from our sources, which is unconfirmed, a deal was eventually done for the supply of a large quantity of shells.

The co-operation became closer. About two months ago, some Serbian MiG-21 fighters - an old type but reliable - were flown to Israel. At an air base, Israeli experts examined the possibility of upgrading the MiGs by modernising their electronics and weapons. Avionics experts said the MiGs were too old and suggested that the Serbians buy new models. The MiG's were flown home.

Arm the enemy?

The Israel-Serbia Connection is bound to be frowned upon by the United States; it has also been criticised by an Israeli parliamentary committee. Its members pointed to reports that until 1992 Serbia was the main training location for the Palestinians.

Two Israeli groups support Serbia. One is the Serbian-Israeli Friendship Group, which regards Serbia's opposition to Hitler during the second world war as heroic. The other is the influential arms industry which, in a shrinking market, is fighting for its survival. Since most of the Serbian army is equipped with Russian-made weapons, with which the Israelis are familiar, this looks like a good opportunity. Serbia also has some T-60 tanks in need of updating.

The government need not be involved. Contacts between the two countries have been made through private businessmen. One of them is Jerusalem-based. Our sources say the Israelis are weighing the urgent Serbian request for assistance. On one hand, the Americans and Europeans would be angry. On the other hand, as our source says, the Israelis think they can get away with anything as far as the United States government is concerned.

Our prediction: Israel will respond with a substantial proposal, but only after the crisis is over.

Some freinds they are, huh? With freinds like Isreal who needs enemies?!

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Anti-Semitism

Israel should conquer Gaza and the West Bank and kick the Palestinians completely out.....

That's exactly what they're trying to do!

They're not having much success so far despite the $3.5 billion of aid they receive from America each year. For which America gets precisley zilch in return...

Ally? More like a millstone...

ppman

 

[Meltzer]

you know what pisses me off more than anything? it's that the isreali's are killing the palestinians with the weapons the U.S. gave them. why cant the U.S. just mind its own damn business.

 

[QuickDuck]

you know what pisses me off more than anything? it's that the isreali's are killing the palestinians with the weapons the U.S. gave them. why cant the U.S. just mind its own damn business.

A few weeks ago, i saw Larry King interviewing Andy Rooney. This is a transcript of one of his oppinions that struck me the most...

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Israeli attack helicopters circle constantly in the sky above.

ROONEY: Well, the pilot is Israeli, but the helicopter is an American Cobra. The rifles used by Israelis to kill Palestinians are often American M-16s, as are some of the rifles used by Palestinians to kill Israelis.

Is this crazy? Last year we gave Israel, 1 billion, 900 million dollars for weapons alone. We gave them 67 helicopters and 337 fighter planes. If Sharon and the Palestinian terrorists persist with their arrogance, we have the power to save Israel and Palestine from themselves by cutting off both the money and the weapons with which this war is being fought.

 

[Weird Harold]

(see the latest J-12 fighters in China).

Gladly, but Google.com can't turn up anything "newer" than J-11s which are purchased from Sukhoi (A russian manufacturer).

 

[Frimost]

Well doesn’t that look familiar?

The J-10 [the export version being designated F-10] is a multi-role single-engine and single-seat tactical fighter, with its combat radius of 1,000 km. It is designed for point defensive warfare with performance generatlly matching aircraft such as the Mirage 2000 deployed by Taiwan. Apparently, Chinese engineers are trying to develop the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel’s US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was cancelled in 1987.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/j-10-takeoff.jpg

Thanks allot Israel, for providing our most dangerous long-term rival with our latest fighter technology!

 

[Frimost]

My Bad

Gladly, but Google.com can't turn up anything "newer" than J-11s which are purchased from Sukhoi (A russian manufacturer).

Weird Harold;
Sorry, I got the designation wrong, its J-10. Not that there isn't a J-12, it just has not come out yet.

 

[Spinaroonie]

I read a comic in the paper it summed thigns up.

Person would say something and there'd be a caption underneath it.

Person: The mid-east conflict is really confusing, but Palestine can't be entirely to blame.
Caption: Raging Anti-Semite

Person: Maybe neither side should win, they should compromise on a mutual set of borders
Caption: Racist Jew Hater

Person: The Middle east situation is horrible, but can't the jews defend themselfs some other way?
Caption: The living incarnation of Adolf Hitler, himself.

Both sides have been wrong, and both make propaganda. There's so much wrong doing that neither side is right. Yes, the Israelis need a place to liv, but so do the palestinians, and neither is backing down. Both leaders suck.

 

[SamEyeAm]

Oh goodie.

Just what the board needs ...

Another Israel bashing thread.

 

[RudeNastyAssBitch]

Thanks Again PP_Man!

http://www.dircat.homestead.com/gloryglory2.html



Back To Your Regularly Schduled Propaganda!

 

[Frimost]

I only bash them because they deserve to be bashed. I came in completely neutral, hell actually with a slight pro-Israeli slant when I first started reading about military affairs about 12 years ago. Based on just what I have read, taking out any Palestinian thing from the equation, they are STILL NOT good allies to have!

 

[Frimost]

Remember 9-11, but also remember the American KIA of the S.S. Liberty!~

Secrets of drowning S/S liberty by Israel
Egypt-Israel, History, 8/9/2001

Serious details and secrets were revealed in a book published recently in Britain about the massacres and war crimes committed by Israel against Egyptian prisoners of war (POWs) during 1967 war.

In his new book the "Secrets Hide-out", James Panford unveiled the vagueness on the enigma of destroying the US espionage ship "Liberty" on 8 June 1967, and the blackout which Washington imposed on the accident.

The British author, quoting eyewitnesses, asserted that Israel has destroyed "Liberty" being the one and only witness on the massacres and war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers against Egyptians POWs.

Panford asserted that the ship had records, through the most modern means of watching and bugging, of scene of gathering and firing of more than 60 Egyptian POWs by the wall of a mosque in Al-Arish.

He pointed that the ship was anchoring in front of Al-Arish coast in an espionage mission to monitor the situation on the battlefield, following Israeli offensive against Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.

The British author quoted Richard Smith, the historian of US Navy as saying that Israel had no alternative but drowning "Liberty" with all its secrets and documents that expose its crimes in the 1967 war.

According to the story mentioned by the survivors, the Israeli ships and planes continued to watch the US ship for six hours, then Israeli torpedoes and planes, with no signs, attacked and destroyed, killing 30 US mariners and wounding many others.

The author unmasked the conspiracy cooked in the USA kitchen under President Lindon Johnson to blackout the accident, as Johnson was preparing to enter presidential elections the following year.

The US President was quoted as having said: "I prefer that the ship be drowned instead of embarrassing my allies.''

The author proved that a US espionage plane was over flying the region during the Israeli attack on the ship and recorded the conversation between the Israeli pilots who destroyed the ship and their command center. They were quite aware that "Liberty" was a US ship and not an ordinary one as claimed later by Israel.

The author quoted a top confidential US document asserting that Johnson has given orders to fully drown the ship and not pick it up in order to bury all documents that convict Israeli crimes against Egyptian POWs.

The US authorities at the time prevented the media and journalists from taking photos of the ship, or exploring this accident once against.

The S.S. Liberty, remember her, remember the American service boys killed over there by ISRAELI aggression using OUR OWN PLANES AGAINST US!

Go do some research on it, go look it up if you wish, they attacked one of ours just as Saddam Hussein attacked the U.S.S. Stark!

 

[SamEyeAm]

I only bash them because they deserve to be bashed. I came in completely neutral, hell actually with a slight pro-Israeli slant when I first started reading about military affairs about 12 years ago. Based on just what I have read, taking out any Palestinian thing from the equation, they are STILL NOT good allies to have!

You're taking a totally one-sided view. Can you balance it at all, by mentioning some ways in which Israel has been, and is today, a good ally to the US?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Thanks Again PP_Man!

http://www.dircat.homestead.com/gloryglory2.html



Back To Your Regularly Schduled Propaganda!

???



ppman

 

[Frimost]

she's a naughty gal

well, pp_man, it IS a sex site after all! lol

I'm reading it right now and I'll tell you what, I would rather be getting a BJ right now like one of the guys in the story then ranting about Israel on this thread!

I think it was directed more towards me if that helps you make any sense of it pp.

 

[Frimost]

Their friendliness to us is propaganda as well

That is precisely why I do not like them, they are NOT a good ally to us! They just have a slick public persona due to a false friendly image created by slick marketing and favorable press. Its all spin, they would sell us down the river in a heartbeat if it would further their own aims. Hell, even the snooty French are not selling cutting-edge weapons to the red Chinese, Israel is, they are selling them the latest Python AA-missiles with beyond visual range targeting. Israel is paranoid, so much so they can NEVER be a good ally to anyone because they will NEVER trust another nation enough to be a good friend to them.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Well doesn’t that look familiar?

Thanks allot Israel, for providing our most dangerous long-term rival with our latest fighter technology!

Why pick on Isreal?

Check out these stats on the Nanchang Q-5/6 fighter bomber:

GUIDANCE - GPS SUPPLIED BY ROCKWELL INTERNATIONAL/GARMIN
HIGH FIX RADAR/ ALR-1 LASER DESIGNATOR

The Q-5 is equipped with the HIGH FIX radar and imported navigation/attack systems. The Q-5 is used mainly to assist ground forces with air strikes. This derivative of the J-6 fighter originated in 1958 as a Shenyang design but was later assigned to Nanchang. A small number of Q-5 have been modified to carry nuclear weapons.

Citations from http://iron-eagles.tripod.com/plaaf/plaafac.htm

So the Chinese are going to use OUR navigation satelite systems and American supplied guidance systems to deliver nukes!

Sure, blame the Isrealis for all of the advances in Chinese Fighters.

(BTW, the J-10 was developed in TWO variants -- one using Isreali technology and one using Russian (Sukhoi) technology and equipment. -- The source didn't say which vesion went into service if there's now only one variant.)

 

[Frimost]

I'll tell you why

Because Harold, the Q-5 is an old piece of shit based on the Soviet Mig-19 Farmer. For those of you that do not know the Mig-19 was obsolete by the time our F-4 Phantoms were flying the not-so-friendly skies over Vietnam.

Rockwell supplied that U.S. made equipment prior to the Tianamen Square massacre of 1989.

To give you an idea how old and crappy the Q-5 is even China, the habitual junk collector and its museum-piece airforce is phasing the Q-5 out of service now.

Israel, on the other hand, is supplying them with NEW technology that will be competitive with our own first-line fighter aircraft.

That is why I am picking on them, do you understand now?

 

[Frimost]

what we get from Israel: Spies and Lies!

Investigative Report
Intelligence Agents Or Art Students?
Posted March 11, 2002
By Paul M. Rodriguez

Media Credit: Suzan Pfanmuller/KRT

From Paris to Washington to New York City and back again, a story has reverberated about an alleged Israeli spy ring that was busted in the United States last year. Intelligence Online, a well-respected Internet news service broke the explosive story, which quickly was picked up by Le Monde in France, then the Associated Press (AP) in Washington and other news outlets.

These stories all seem to track a similar report last December by Carl Cameron of Fox News outlining concerns among U.S. law-enforcement and intelligence agencies that an Israeli-based network of operatives was spying or otherwise engaged in information-gathering activities within the United States. All the news agencies said or mentioned that many of those under investigation subsequently were deported by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) for visa violations. Most also quoted named and unnamed Israeli spokesmen as saying that Israel doesn't spy on the United States and that whatever these Israeli citizens were doing was not criminal even if inappropriate and in violation of their visas.

Insight already was investigating such allegations and had obtained numerous documents for what from the beginning was planned as an investigative report. Amid the breaking news of the so-called "Israeli spy-ring bust," it is time to clear the air on a variety of real and half-baked charges reported by others. Specifically:


The Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) began an "unprecedented" internal-security investigation early last spring following reports from field agents and regional offices involving suspicious activities by Israeli citizens engaged in the sale of artwork and paintings throughout the Southeast, South and Southwest, including Florida, Texas and California.


The "Israeli art students" — so dubbed because that's how they described themselves to various law-enforcement officials when confronted — were both male and female and, as appropriate to their ages and required under Israeli law, served that nation's military.


These alleged students traveled in "organized" teams of eight to 10 people, with each group having a team leader.


Reports of Israeli art students calling on DEA employees began at least as early as January 2000 and continued through at least June 2001.


These unusual visits at both the homes and offices of DEA officers were expanded to include employees of "several other law-enforcement and Department of Defense agencies."


"The number of reported incidents has declined" since spring 2001, though the "geographic spread of the incidents has increased to Wisconsin, Oklahoma and Los Angeles."


The stories offered by the Israeli art students "are remarkable in their consistency" insofar as they state they either are from the University of Jerusalem or the Bezalel Academy of Arts in Jerusalem."


Despite the students' claims that they had themselves produced the artwork or paintings they were offering for sale, "information has been received which indicates the art is actually produced in China."


All this is contained in official DEA documents obtained by Insight, including one produced in early June 2001. These represent an extraordinary compilation by DEA's Office of Security Programs chronicling not only contacts of DEA personnel at home or at their offices, but also similar incidents involving employees of other agencies and the military.

"It is a very alarming set of documents," says one high-ranking federal law-enforcement official when told of the cache of materials collected by Insight. "This shows how serious DEA and Justice consider this activity."

Indeed, says a senior Justice Department official briefed on an ongoing multiagency task force, "We think there is something quite sinister here but are unable at this time to put our finger on it." But, said another federal law-enforcement source: "The higher-ups don't want to deal with this and neither does the FBI because it involves Israel."

One report, Suspicious Activities Involving Israeli Art Students at DEA Facilities, lists more than 180 documented-incident cases. Analysts tell Insight they appear to be attempts "to circumvent the access-control systems at DEA offices" and to capture personal information about private lives of DEA law-enforcement officers, such as where they live, what cars they drive and how they behave outside of their official offices. This was concluded, in part, based on photographs made of U.S. law officers and other materials seized by a variety of federal and local law-enforcement officers during searches.

"The nature of the individuals' conduct, combined with intelligence information and historical information regarding past incidents involving Israeli organized crime, leads IS [DEA's Internal Security division] to believe the incidents may well be an organized intelligence-gathering activity," a classified document euphemizes.

The documents do not clearly label the activities of the so-called art students as a government-sanctioned spying operation, as widely reported. But they do make clear there is a covert nature to the well-orchestrated activities. In one reference, DEA said telephone numbers obtained from one encounter with its agents in Orlando, Fla., "have been linked to several ongoing DEA MDMA [the illegal drug Ecstasy] investigations in Florida, California, Texas and New York now being closely coordinated by DEA headquarters" in Washington.

A review of passports obtained by law enforcement also showed that a majority of the students traveled to numerous countries, including Thailand, Laos, India, Kenya, Central and South America, Australia, Germany, the Netherlands and Canada.

Besides federal law-enforcement incidents, DEA's IS unit found that several military bases also had experienced unauthorized entries by some of the students, including two bases from which Stealth aircraft and other supersecret military units operate. Unauthorized photographing of military sites and civilian industrial complexes, such as petroleum-storage facilities, also was reported to the DEA, the documents show and interviews confirm.

In virtually every incident of the many reported by the entire DEA field-office structure the pattern was similar: Students would attempt to enter secure buildings, take photographs, follow federal agents when they left buildings, show up at their homes, take pictures of their cars and circle their neighborhoods, visiting only their houses and then departing.

"This is very odd behavior under any situation," says a current DEA official who had heard but not yet seen the reports until Insight shared them. "The patterns are clear and they pose a significant danger to our officers in the field." Maybe U.S. national security.

On March 4, Intelligence Online reported that U.S. authorities had busted an Israeli spy ring in the United States that had sought to penetrate various federal law-enforcement agencies and military establishments. According to one wire report, the online service also said that documents it had obtained showed "a huge Israeli spy ring operating in the United States was rolled up by the Justice Department's counter-espionage service" last year.

Once newspapers and the AP picked the story up, FBI officials downplayed it, telling reporters that no charges of espionage had been filed. The carefully worded statements left out any mention of whether spying was suspected. FBI and INS officials told newsmen that most of those involved — an estimated 100 or so "Israeli art students" — overstayed their visas and had been deported. Some also were found to have illegal drugs or admitted to illegal-drug usage and were deported for this, too, documents showed and officials confirm to Insight.

A spokesmen for the Israeli Embassy in Washington says suggestions of espionage are nonsense and that all that might have been involved was a few visa violations. "If there were crimes committed then why weren't any of these people charged?" a spokesman asked. "That's not to say that there isn't any organized crime involving Israeli citizens," said another Israeli official when asked about DEA concern that the art students might have been tied to a criminal syndicate. "If that is so, I hope they put them in jail. We don't need those types of people, no matter who they are, loose on the streets."

This Israeli government official also tells Insight that his government's police and intelligence services cooperate fully with their counterparts in the United States, including the ongoing Ecstasy investigation mentioned in one of the DEA documents this magazine has obtained. "It is unfortunately a big problem, and we are working to help stop it," the Israeli official confirms.

FBI and Justice spokesmen have sought either to downplay or knock out the stories — even discredit the DEA reports and their authors. But if DEA was wrong then how can Justice explain this item Insight discovered that was circulated by a little-known but sensitive White House agency called the U.S. Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive.

That agency not only circulated an internal warning to intelligence, federal law enforcement and White House planners — three full months before DEA issued its own internal report — but also posted on its site a warning to all federal employees about Israeli art students aggressively trying to enter federal facilities and going to the homes of senior federal agents. The same thing apparently was going on with a non-Israeli outfit with possible ties to a Middle Eastern Islamic fundamentalist group.

Paul M. Rodriguez is managing editor of Insight.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: I'll tell you why

Because Harold, the Q-5 is an old piece of shit based on the Soviet Mig-19 Farmer. For those of you that do not know the Mig-19 was obsolete by the time our F-4 Phantoms were flying the not-so-friendly skies over Vietnam.

Old and obsolete dos NOT mean ineffective.

With GPS guidance, (and the other stats listed), I'd rate it as at least as effective as an A-10 although the site compares it to the A-4 Skyhawk.

Any aircraft that can deliver a Nuke with even the accuracy of civilian grade GPS positioning is one dangerous MF -- especially with Su-27 and Su-30 and other modern Russian aircraft supporting them.

I don't doubt that they're being phased out. That doesn't remove the GPS equipment from the chinese inventory though.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: she's a naughty gal

well, pp_man, it IS a sex site after all! lol

I'm reading it right now and I'll tell you what, I would rather be getting a BJ right now like one of the guys in the story then ranting about Israel on this thread!

I think it was directed more towards me if that helps you make any sense of it pp.

The reason I was confused was that I wrote it under my other net name of dircat...

I thought there was some hidden connection between the glory hole and Israel that I hadn't realised at the time!

LOL

ppman