Hypersonnets

[Cordelia]

Lauren mentioned she wanted to start a thread about hypersonnets, so I am taking the initiative here. (Is that okay, Lauren?)

I will begin by stating Lauren's definition here:

It is a freakish mutant fusion of the classic and english sonnets, and this 20 iambic pentameters estravaganza, respects a very tight rhyming scheme: ABBA CDDC CDE CDE ABBA EE. As you can see, each of the five rhyming sounds appears four and only four times.

A fine example is Romeo Is Bleeding: a hypersonnet by The Poets

Having said this, I am going to sumbit my attempt at this form. The title is a working title (I suck at titles.....any ideas?).

******************
Appraisal

You store me in your crystal-covered days
and take me out to catch the light of you.
I keep a polished gleam of amber hue
and hope for a magnanimous display.

Opalescent words drip with such art,
rendering my protest useless, mired.
I see the velvet knife I once desired.
It feels like retribution’s counterpart.

Shards of broken baubles bite my heart --
Enter rationalizations uninspired.
Polish me again with harsher grit.

Anxious not to see resentment start,
I lower flags of truce as I’m required –
Bitter ice as diamond’s counterfeit.

A silver setting of reluctant praise
gives background for the facets you subdue –
a touch of inhibition, sapphire blue
enameled cool as careless cloisonné.

Familiar play of smiles, I submit
that touch of jewels worn so exquisite.

**********************

It needs polishing...any ideas? Thanks in advance,

Cordelia

PS.....my first attempts at posting links, too!

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Oh!

Thank you, Cordelia! A thread just for hypersonnets! What a wonderful idea!

hehehe

OK, sorry about that egotistic moment. I was hoping to start this thread when I had written my own first 'Hynde Hypersonnet' (I know! I'm ashamed I never wrote one 'till now) but maybe this is for the best.

The Hypersonnet deserved a home. If I can convince Judo to drop in and give us a hand with the iambic pentameter thingy, maybe we can even turn this into a workshop.

Cordelia! Thanks once again for inaugurating the thread. I really like the message behind your poem. I'll come back as soon as I can to comment further.

Eve! Post your hypersonnet here, please. Let's analyse and polish it.

Angeline! I know you're hiding something too. Don't be shy.

Beth! Where's the reply to that challenge? Let us see what you came up with.

Judo! Help!!!

 

[Angeline]

A Silly Hypersonnet

For Kate E


We met one year ago on this fair site
And somehow did become unlikely friends
I’ve laughed off every insult she extends
Her boorishness simply no cause for flight

Listen with care when you hear Kate E speak
Nowhere as dumb as she would have you think
She hurls retorts faster than you can blink
That make you laugh until your knees are weak

And here in the midst of this hyper sonnet
One sneaky secret will I freely share
Though you may not tell what I do impart

As her friend I have thought long upon it
She’ll hate the telling but I do not care
Tis but facade she has a gentle heart

Kate I must admit I blew your cover
Though some continue to find you crazy
Don’t sweat it you know it’s all fugazy
No one matters but me and your lover

Ok so this poem sounds dumb and singy
Kate won’t care she’ll think it’s uh thingy

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Thank you, Angeline!

You know how much I love it! Although it isn't a Hypersonnet (take another look at the rhyme scheme)!
We'll have to polish it a bit.

 

[Cordelia]

You gave me a great chuckle there, Ang!

And Lauren? I am shocked to find that you have not written a poem of the form of
your creation!

(Did I mention how much I love being a virgin...again?)

Cordelia

 

[Angeline]

Leave it

as I said it's a new form---a megasonnet......

 

[HomerPindar]

First, allow me to assure Cordie I am not trying to hijack her thread (see, guns away ) But I do wonder at how closely forms need to be followed to be considered said form. As Lauren has "created" this form, I suppose she can call what she wants "accurate," but I can't think of a form that hasn't had some modifications done to it. I had one class that decided that the only functioning element of a sonnet is that it has 14 lines. That's it. There were examples of sonnets in meter, non-metered, non-rhyming, heck, not even in english, so I couldn't even tell you what was going on... but they all had one thing in common, 14 lines. While this is just an example of the sonnets variation, I do wonder how such elements become fixed to a poem. How is it that a poem is defined yet changed over time?

HomerPindar

 

[Cordelia]

First, allow me to assure Cordie I am not trying to hijack her thread (see, guns away ) But I do wonder at how closely forms need to be followed to be considered said form. As Lauren has "created" this form, I suppose she can call what she wants "accurate," but I can't think of a form that hasn't had some modifications done to it. I had one class that decided that the only functioning element of a sonnet is that it has 14 lines. That's it. There were examples of sonnets in meter, non-metered, non-rhyming, heck, not even in english, so I couldn't even tell you what was going on... but they all had one thing in common, 14 lines. While this is just an example of the sonnets variation, I do wonder how such elements become fixed to a poem. How is it that a poem is defined yet changed over time?

HomerPindar

First let me say that this is, essentially, not my thread. I just started it at Lauren's suggestion. Secondly, it's not a hijack. I think this is a perfect place to discuss forms in general.

My opinion is that forms are good to learn strictly before you start loosening the "restrictions." In my writings, I find I work a lot with a form and follow it as strictly as I can so I can get the feel for what sort of subject works well with the form. Once I find this, I start easing up on the restrictions and playing with the form.

For example, I know now that there are not too many subjects that work well with the repition in villanelles, kyrielles and paradelles. Also, I know what sorts of thoughts and subjects work with only 14 lines in a sonnet. This hypersonnet grew from a sonnet it outgrew!

I also want to interject here that I found I work better with forms than with free verse. My theory is that because I work all day with numbers and left-brain type things (I am an accountant!), forms keep this side of my brain happily occupied (go to the corner and keep busy...) while it frees my right brain to create. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks for the interjection, Homer.

Cordelia

 

[HomerPindar]

First let me say that this is, essentially, not my thread. I just started it at Lauren's suggestion. Secondly, it's not a hijack. I think this is a perfect place to discuss forms in general.

Some folks get surprisingly possesive of threads... personally, I think that's a little much. But then, I have made a point of hijacking at least one

My opinion is that forms are good to learn strictly before you start loosening the "restrictions." In my writings, I find I work a lot with a form and follow it as strictly as I can so I can get the feel for what sort of subject works well with the form. Once I find this, I start easing up on the restrictions and playing with the form.

For example, I know now that there are not too many subjects that work well with the repition in villanelles, kyrielles and paradelles. Also, I know what sorts of thoughts and subjects work with only 14 lines in a sonnet. This hypersonnet grew from a sonnet it outgrew!

perfectly logical there...someone once said (in a book it was) that the villanelle does not lend itself to stories with it's repitition. I took that as a challenge of course So, i certainly understand the value in learning forms before playing with them...

I also want to interject here that I found I work better with forms than with free verse. My theory is that because I work all day with numbers and left-brain type things (I am an accountant!), forms keep this side of my brain happily occupied (go to the corner and keep busy...) while it frees my right brain to create. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks for the interjection, Homer.

Cordelia

I work in forms, and that tends to make writing free verse easier. odd that...Sometimes a phrase just pops into my head and I go with it. but, if I sit down to write a poem, I'm often better off trying to find a form first.

Tend to think this sort of thing is rather individualistic.

HomerPindar

 

[OT]

I found I work better with forms than with free verse. ... Any thoughts on this?

Sometimes structure is a good thing. Forms are comforting. They provide guidelines when otherwise we flounder.

 

[JUDO]

???

Sometimes structure is a good thing. Forms are comforting. They provide guidelines when otherwise we flounder.

...when otherwise we flounder what?

Are you related to Rybka?

 

[HomerPindar]

Re: ???

...when otherwise we flounder what?

Are you related to Rybka?

I considered commenting on how I was perched on the edge of my seat now...but feared such a comment would start a sea of bad puns. As if there's any other kind in large amounts....


HomerPindar

 

[OT]

did i leave an unFINished thought? sounds fishy to me.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Appraisal

You store me in your crystal-covered days
and take me out to catch the light of you.
I keep a polished gleam of amber hue
and hope for a magnanimous display.

Opalescent words drip with such art,
rendering my protest useless, mired.
I see the velvet knife I once desired.
It feels like retribution's counterpart.

Shards of broken baubles bite my heart --
Enter rationalizations uninspired.
Polish me again with harsher grit.

Anxious not to see resentment start,
I lower flags of truce as I'm required –
Bitter ice as diamond's counterfeit.

A silver setting of reluctant praise
gives background for the facets you subdue –
a touch of inhibition, sapphire blue
enameled cool as careless cloisonné.

Familiar play of smiles, I submit
that touch of jewels worn so exquisite.

Hi, Cordelia et al--

I'm going to attempt starting the hypersonnet critique and polish thingies, but I will require everyone's help and especially patience when I screw things up. I'm also hoping for all of you to freely comment on everyone else's hypersonnets; this thread isn't mine, it's yours. Ok, ours.

Firstly, allow me a brief comment on the content. The metaphor you use here is as good as anything I've ever read. Original, beautifully detailed, witty. Every verse adds something meaningful to the poem. Anyone thinking that to write a sonnet all one needs is to coordinate rhymes and metre, should read this and try to grasp its flow.

That being said, let's coordinate rhymes and metre. Where the hell is Judo when you need her?

Ideally, Hynde Hypersonnets would be in iambic pentameter, and with a ABBA CDDC CDE CDE ABBA EE rhyme scheme. What you have is:

--------------------
1st quatrain:

You store me in your crystal-covered days
and take me out to catch the light of you.
I keep a polished gleam of amber hue
and hope for a magnanimous display.

As much as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the first three verses. Perfectly iambic, 10 syllables each. However, when you reach the fourth, things aren't so smooth: mag-'NA-ni-mous doesn't give itself to iamb, in my opinion. Also, days and play don't really rhyme, but I noticed that in the fifth stanza you use praise and cloisonné. You need to opt for one rhyme or the other. My suggestion for your consideration would be:

You store me in your crystal-covered days
and take me out to catch the light of you.
I keep a polished gleam of amber hue
and hope for worthy, dignified displays.*

*or 'expecting worthy, dignified displays.'

--------------------
2nd quatrain:

Opalescent words drip with such art, 9 syllables
rendering my protest useless, mired. 9 syllables
I see the velvet knife I once desired.
It feels like retribution's counterpart.

--------------------
1st tercet (3rd stanza):

Shards of broken baubles bite my heart-- 9 syllables
Enter rationalizations uninspired. 10 syllables non-iambic
Polish me again with harsher grit. 9 syllables

--------------------
2nd tercet (4th stanza):

Anxious not to see resentment start, 9 syllables
I lower flags of truce as I'm required-–
Bitter ice as di(a)mond's counterfeit. 9 syllables, or 10 syllables non-iambic, depending on the pronunciation of 'DI-(a)-mond

--------------------
3rd quatrain (5th stanza):

A silver setting of reluctant praise
gives background for the facets you subdue-- 10 syllables, non-iambic (or at least doubtful)
a touch of inhibition, sapphire blue 10 syllables, non-iambic
enameled cool as careless cloisonné. rhyme issue, cf. 1st quatrain. Maybe 'cloisonnées' is acceptable?

This stanza is the one in direst need of assistance. Even disregarding the rhyme issue (which, the way it's done, in parallel with the first stanza, was a very clever way of bending the rules, but bending them just the same) there are still the two non-iambic verses. In the second, the word 'BACK-"GROUND has two stressed syllables, not really suited for iamb. A similar but more evident thing happens in the third with "SAP-'PHIRES.

--------------------
couplet (6th stanza):

Familiar play of smiles, I submit 9 syllables, non-iambic
that touch of jewels worn so exquisite 10 syllables, non-iambic, no rhyme.

The final couplet also needs some attention. The first verse should be easy enough to fix, but the last will demand some heavier editing. Ex-'QUI-site doesn't rhyme with sub-'MIT, 'GRIT or 'COUN-ter-''FEIT. I can't really think of anything right now (it's 2.30 AM, people!), but now that I've detected the problems, maybe we can all work on the solutions.

On a side note, I'm not sure if I'd edit those lines with 9 syllables where the only problem seems to be a weak syllable missing in the beginning. I might change the pentameter rules to accommodate it. Any thoughts on this?

 

[HomerPindar]

Ok, I suck at meter, and I'm sitting here - dictionary in hand - checking words for which syllable is emphisized and all that. But is there a rule of thumb for multiple one sylable words? take:

a touch of inhibition, sapphire blue

is it

a touch of inhibition, sapphire blue

or is it

a touch of inhibition, sapphire blue

where the second version sounds ok spoken, but screws up the emphisis on inhibition (which should be inhibition)....

Any insight?

HomerPindar

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Homer--

Thank you for pointing that out, I'd forgotten to mark the emphasized syllables on that stanza...

I don't think there is a rule you can follow, it depends on which words do you want to put emphasis. In that particular case it would be easy to decide. Of course

a touch of... would be the correct way; when in doubt, remove the unstressed words and if it still holds meaning, you're probably on the right track.

and

usually nouns and verbs are emphasised, not prepositions and articles.
e.g.: and take me out to catch the light of you

Going back to your example, inhibitions is stressed twice; even if bi is proponderant, in still has enough strengh to be considered apart from the other syllables (according to Merram-Webster: "in-h&-'bi-sh&n.

 

[Cordelia]

Yikes!

Lauren and Homer,

Thanks for starting to pick apart my poem. I know it need some work, but let me ask a few questions before we go on. (And this relates to Homer's questions about insistance that we adhere to form.)

With iambic pentameter in sonnets, just how anal do we need to get? I read a lot of sonnets (and I would never put myself in the category with the great writers..), and I notice that the meter almost never followed a strict iambic meter. I couldn't find a single sonnet that did, in fact. I couldn't even find one of Shakespeare's that had the entire sonnet in iambs. I noticed the pattern to be five feet that mostly stayed iambic, but worked rhythmically, nevertheless.

So, am I just whining here? Or are there sonnets out there with each line in exactly ten syllables in perfect iambs? Am I rationalizing my inexactness here? (Or does this require psychotherapy to answer?)

For Homer's benefit, I did read a great quote by Frances Mayes in her wonderful book "The Discovery of Poetry." She is discussing form and how it relates to poetry. "Form doesn't hold a poem like a pitcher holds milk. Form is more like a satin dress that fits tight as a second skin. That's the right fit, but form can't come off like a dress."

Stepping down off my podium,

Cordelia

 

[beths-virtue]

ill be here shortly, for editing on lands hypersonnett, that wouldnt die, from his challenge thread....

note to self, never ive with a poet with a challenge hanging over head....

just kidding, he's not unbearable, hes been wonderfull with me out of commision

 

[HomerPindar]

Re: Yikes!

Lauren and Homer,

Hi Cordie!

For Homer's benefit, I did read a great quote by Frances Mayes in her wonderful book "The Discovery of Poetry." She is discussing form and how it relates to poetry. "Form doesn't hold a poem like a pitcher holds milk. Form is more like a satin dress that fits tight as a second skin. That's the right fit, but form can't come off like a dress."

Stepping down off my podium,

Cordelia

Thanks for the reference...I have another poetry class scheduled next semester, so hopefully I'll learn more as I go. If not, you'll know just where to bury me

Now...what's this about taking off a dress..?

HomerPindar

 

[Cordelia]

By the way...

I posted the hypersonnet a while back.

If anyone is interested in the final version, here it is.

On Ice

Thanks to those who gave me input and to Judo for the feedback!

And thanks to the gentleman who gave me the title....you know who you are.

(Sounds like I'm accepting a damned award! Sorry.)


Bowing and blowing kisses,



Cordelia

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: Yikes!

Lauren and Homer,

Thanks for starting to pick apart my poem. I know it need some work, but let me ask a few questions before we go on. (And this relates to Homer's questions about insistance that we adhere to form.)

With iambic pentameter in sonnets, just how anal do we need to get? I read a lot of sonnets (and I would never put myself in the category with the great writers..), and I notice that the meter almost never followed a strict iambic meter. I couldn't find a single sonnet that did, in fact. I couldn't even find one of Shakespeare's that had the entire sonnet in iambs. I noticed the pattern to be five feet that mostly stayed iambic, but worked rhythmically, nevertheless.

So, am I just whining here? Or are there sonnets out there with each line in exactly ten syllables in perfect iambs? Am I rationalizing my inexactness here? (Or does this require psychotherapy to answer?)

For Homer's benefit, I did read a great quote by Frances Mayes in her wonderful book "The Discovery of Poetry." She is discussing form and how it relates to poetry. "Form doesn't hold a poem like a pitcher holds milk. Form is more like a satin dress that fits tight as a second skin. That's the right fit, but form can't come off like a dress."

Stepping down off my podium,

Cordelia

Hi, Cord--

I don't think rules need to be strickly followed at all times. I'm sorry if my picking apart of your hypersonnet made you fell that way.

Of course that there are other elements much more important than iambic pentameter (which is an almost exclusive caracteristic of the English language--you can't write iambs in romance languages without too great pains). The option of using iamb is just that, an option. It can be overruled at any point if the poem has to benefit from it. I've done it many times, as have all other poets throughout history. That's why it didn't bother me at all some of the deviation from the rules in your hypersonnet. I thought it worked perfectly, and the rhythm was just as good as if you were using iambs.

But, if you set out to write a poem using a determinate previously coded form, you should try to explore all possibilities that would bring you closer to produce a technically perfect poem. It can be done. There are a huge number of sonnets that did it, but it's really up to you to decide which way you want to go. It's a matter of weighting the pros and cons of following a rigid form. But as a mathematician, you'll understand that poetic beauty and technical perfection walk hand in hand.

My (slightly confused) thoughts.


edited to add: In your sonnet, the only thing I thought was awkward, and still do, is the couplet. The fact that it's technically flawed is secondary, but it's poetic strengh loses a lot because of it. It really is a shame.

 

[Cordelia]

Re: Re: Yikes!

Hi, Cord--

I don't think rules need to be strickly followed at all times. I'm sorry if my picking apart of your hypersonnet made you fell that way.

Of course that there are other elements much more important than iambic pentameter (which is an almost exclusive caracteristic of the English language--you can't write iambs in romance languages without too great pains). The option of using iamb is just that, an option. It can be overruled at any point if the poem has to benefit from it. I've done it many times, as have all other poets throughout history. That's why it didn't bother me at all some of the deviation from the rules in your hypersonnet. I thought it worked perfectly, and the rhythm was just as good as if you were using iambs.

But, if you set out to write a poem using a determinate previously coded form, you should try to explore all possibilities that would bring you closer to produce a technically perfect poem. It can be done. There are a huge number of sonnets that did it, but it's really up to you to decide which way you want to go. It's a matter of weighting the pros and cons of following a rigid form. But as a mathematician, you'll understand that poetic beauty and technical perfection walk hand in hand.

My (slightly confused) thoughts.

Lauren,

It didn't make me feel that way at all... I just wanted to bring up the subject, and it seemed a good segue.

And I agree. As a mathematician, I try as hard as possible to get that technical side in. But I stumble across words that I just can't let go, so I try to work around that.

I think your poetry is startlingly lovely and your word choices are incredible.

SO when are you going to write a hypersonnet????

Holding my breath,



Cordelia.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

LOL

Thank you. I've been a little out of touch with my poetic voice, lately, but I'm trying to come back. Maybe soon. I've been thinking about a hypersonnet for several months, but never gathered the courage to sit down and write it.

By the way, while you were writing your last post I was editing mine, so you might want to check it again.

About your hypersonnet, I wish we could have seen Judo's feedback too, since we're all still trying to learn this new form. Think you can convince her to post it here?

 

[Cordelia]

LOL

Thank you. I've been a little out of touch with my poetic voice, lately, but I'm trying to come back. Maybe soon. I've been thinking about a hypersonnet for several months, but never gathered the courage to sit down and write it.

By the way, while you were writing your last post I was editing mine, so you might want to check it again.

About your hypersonnet, I wish we could have seen Judo's feedback too, since we're all still trying to learn this new form. Think you can convince her to post it here?

Oh my, Lauren. I don't know Judo well enough to ask...or presume.

But I tend to agree about the couplet. I think I got tired of looking at the whole dang thing and just went ahead and left it.

But I am resolved to write another one, Lauren. It was a great form to work with. Thanks for inventing it.


Exhaling,



Cordelia

 

[champagne1982]

You're killing me!

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