Hypen question on dinner-plate-sized

[manyeyedhydra]

What would be the correct way to hyphenate "dinner-plate-sized discs"?

I think it's all hyphenated as in the example above, but I've also seen "dinner plate sized", "dinner-plate sized" and "dinner plate-sized". Which is correct?

ta

 

[Bramblethorn]

What would be the correct way to hyphenate "dinner-plate-sized discs"?

I think it's all hyphenated as in the example above, but I've also seen "dinner plate sized", "dinner-plate sized" and "dinner plate-sized". Which is correct?

ta

IANA professional editor, but this site seems to agree with me: http://faceless39.hubpages.com/hub/Writing-Tips-How-To-Use-Hyphens

If you're using multiple words to function as a single adjective that immediately precedes the thing it describes, hyphenate. Otherwise, don't. So, "He was an anal-retentive sort of guy" but "She was an anal retentive".

So I'd go with "dinner-plate-sized discs", like you've got there. (And I'll be interested to read the story when it appears

 

[sr71plt]

This would be a case to consider "dinner plate" as a combined noun and go with "dinner plate-sized discs."

If the other modifier ("sized") wasn't present, you'd hyphenate differently when the term was directly in front of the noun: "dinner-plate special."

 

[elfin_odalisque]

What would be the correct way to hyphenate "dinner-plate-sized discs"?

I think it's all hyphenated as in the example above, but I've also seen "dinner plate sized", "dinner-plate sized" and "dinner plate-sized". Which is correct?

ta

No. Dinner plate requires no hyphenation and, as a compound noun in its own right, does not require hyphenation afterwards.

I'm sure I'll be admonished, but I would suggest 'discs the size of dinner plates'. I think 'dinner plate sized' doesn't need hyphens.

 

[mynameisben]

How about frisbee-sized discs?

 

[elfin_odalisque]

How about frisbee-sized discs?

Probably yes but you miss the point between 'dinner plates' and 'frisbee-sized discs'.

The first is a compound noun and the second an adjectival phrase.

 

[mynameisben]

Probably yes but you miss the point between 'dinner plates' and 'frisbee-sized discs'.

The first is a compound noun and the second an adjectival phrase.

I didn't miss the point. I'm just a seeker of alternative solutions.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Eek. Three different answers.

 

[BONNIEBREA]

What you first proposed is the correct usage.

Hyphens are used to hold together words that normally would be separate, but are now being used together to form a single meaning. This is especially true when the words are stating in a different form a longer concept.

The other way to describe these discs would be to say: "discs that are the size of a dinner plate." But for your own reasons you've decided to state the idea differently (and doing it your way is better because you convey the concept in a more economical and crisper way).

You're taking the concept "that are the size of a dinner plate" and both reorganizing the words (while dropping some of them) and placing it in a different place in the sentence relative to the noun it modifies (from following the noun to preceding the noun). For those reasons the three-word phrase has to have a hyphen between each word.

The other issue is that you are using three separate words to create a manufactured compound word that acts with a single purpose: to modify the noun. Since it would be confusing to write: "dinnerplatesized discs", the hyphens are used to separate the individual words.

The way the Gregg Reference Manual puts it is that in a situation like this (a created, multi-word adjective modifying a noun) the hyphens act as the glue that holds the three (or two of four or however many) words together for their temporary usage.

Hope the information is helpful.

 

[sr71plt]

You've now had every possible permutation endorsed. Choose wisely, because some of these "definitive" answers are off the wall (as is usual when you ask on the Internet).

 

[elfin_odalisque]

What I learned in school was that if one noun was a modifier for another - like 'dinner plate, train station, office chair or home base' - a hyphen was never required.

Ready for the stream, surely if you add an adjective like 'sized', this doesn't change the hyphenation? Sure, adjectives like bite-sized are hyphenated but isn't this different?

At a pinch I could accept 'dinner plate-sized' but surely not 'dinner-plate-sized'?

The noun modifier doesn't change with the adjective, surely?

 

[PennLady]

I think elfin may have it. I have a feeling I'd write it differently, i.e., "as big as a dinner plate" to avoid questions just like this. I can be lazy.

 

[BONNIEBREA]

This is an interesting topic (and snarky comments in quotation marks about "definitive" answers always inspire me to be helpful) so I thought I'd pass along some of the information in the Gregg Reference Manual on the subject. If you have one you'll find the information from paragraphs 801 through 836. If you don't have one you can print this and it will act as a shorthand guide with hyphenation questions. I've found the manual to be tremendously helpful as a supplier of "definitive' answers. The rules and examples cited are almost all from the Gregg Manual:

Compound expressions can be separte, solid, or hyphenated.

UP words are hyphened or solid, and the incidence is about equal, so check the manual or a dictionary (although dictionaries often differ). ie: buildup, breakup, pickup, but also catch-up, mix-up, start-up.

DOWN words are mostly solid. ie: breakdown, meltdown, rundown, but there are a few exceptions like put-down, write-down.

IN words are almost always hypheneted. ie: cave-in, lead-in, stand-in.

OUT words are mostly solid. ie: burnout, lockout, payout, handout, but a few are hy7phenated: fade-out, shoot-out, falling-out

ON words are almost always hyphenated. ie: add-on, follow-on, hangers-on. The only exception noted was logon (although the Merriam-Webster dictionary hyphenates this one too).

OFF words are either solid or hyphenated (check manual or dictionary) with what seems about an even split between them. ie: blastoff, kickoff, payoff, but also drop-off, sihn-off, trade-off.

OVER words are typically solid. ie: hangover, makeover, pullover, with a very few exceptions like comb-over, once-over, voice-over.

BACK words are seemingly always solid (by which I mean there are no exceptions noted). ie: buyback, payback, piggyback, throwback.

AWAY words are seemingly always solid: ie: giveaway, breakaway, hideaway.

ABOUT, AROUND and BY words seemingly are always solid. ie: roundabout, whereabouts, runaround, passersby.

BETWEEN, THROUGH and TOGETHER words are almost always hyphenated. ie: go-between, follow-through, get-together. But breakthrough (solid) is noted.

Compound nouns that are manufactured not using a noun are almost always hyphenated: also-rans, two-by-four, know-how, free-for-all. Although a few exceptions are noted: ups and downs, wear and tear.

Words constructed of repeated or rhyming syllables are typically hyphenated: boo-boo, hocus-pocus, hurly-burly, nitty-gritty, fuddy-duddy. But some exceptions are noted: hodgepodge, fender bender, mumbo jumbo.

Most compound nouns that end with a prepositional phrase are hyphenated. ie: brother-in-law, stay-at-home, stick-in-the-mud, hole-in-the-wall.

Generally, compound nouns are expressed as separates unless otherwise noted in the manual or a dictionary (and often such separate expressions would not be in a dictionary) So: profit sharing, decision making, skill building, skin diving. But some are used as solids or hyphenated (and these would appear in a dictionary): downsizing, tailgating, troubleshooter, name-droper, whistle-blower, consciousness-raising.

Compound nouns that combine two functions in one person or thing are hyphenated: actor-director, owner-manager, photocopier-printer.

Compound nouns with a single letter as their first element are hyphenated: D-day, A-list, H-bomb, x-axis. There are a few exceptions like iMac and iPod, but those are because a thing has intentionally been given a name speklled that way. The only exception seems to be T square.

Compound verbs are either solid or hyphenated (check manual or dictionary): fine-tune, jump-start, cherry-pick. But also: buttonhole, downsize, shortchange, blackball.

If the infinitive form of a compound verb is hyphenated, then the hyphen is retained in other forms of the verb: Would you like to air-condition your house?, the theater is air-conditioned, We need an air-conditioning expert.

The gerund that comes from a hyphenated compound verb drops the hyphen if there is no object, and retains it if there is an object. So: Air conditioning is no longer expensive. Air-conditioning an office is a good idea. Dry cleaning is a good way to clean clothes. Dry-cleaning this dress will be expensive.

Compound adjectives that express a single idea and take the place of an adjective phrase or clause are hyphenated: dinner-plate-sized discs, a well-known actor, an up-to-date report. This can be done with multiple concepts. ie: A PC that delivers a high level of performance, carries a low cost and is easy to use >>> a high-performance, low-cost, easy-to-use PC.

The elements of a compound adjective that occurs before a noun is always hyphenated. So: dinner-plate-sized discs, long-range plan, worst-case scenario. A very few, very well-recognized compound adjectives are not hyphenated before the noun: real estate deal, high school education, life insurance benefit.

A proper names used as an adjective is never hyphenated: Supreme Court decision, A Park Avenue location. But when two different proper names are combined to create a new idea, they are hyphenated: Italian-American cuisine.

When a compound adjective is composed of a noun and an adjective it will be hyphenated both before or after the noun it modifies: brain-dead, fat-free, energy efficient., ice cold, year-round.

The hyphen is retained when that sort of compound adjective acts as an adverb rather than as an adjective. So: call on our toll-free number / You can call toll-free.

When a noun made of separates is combined with an adjective the separates remain separate. So, federal tax-free (although the idea can be stated more clearly with something like: An investment that is free od federal taxes - more wordy but clearer.

Noun and particle combinations are hyphenated: hair-raising, tongue-tied, panis-stricken, market-tested.

Adjective and particle combinations are hyphenated: long-standing, soft-spoken, half-baked, hard-hitting.

Adjective plus ED noun combinations are hyphenated: good-hearted, tight-lipped, fast-paced, deep-rooted.

However adverb and participle constructions are not hyphenated when the adverb ends in LY: poorly constructed, newly formed. And adverb-particple constructions are hyphated before a noun and not after: well-known consultant / the consultant is well known. But if the participle does not become part of the verb and continues to function with an adverb as a one-thought modifier then the hyphen is used both before and after: well-behaved child / the child is well-behaved.

A few words in the above category are so well known and used that they are exceptions: GOING words - easygoing, outgoing; FAR words: farsighted (but sometimes not as most dictionaries hyphenate far-fetched, far-flung and far-reaching). FREE words: freestanding, freehanded (but also: free-falling, free-flowing - check the manual or a dictionary). WIDE words can be either: widespread, wide-eyed, wide-ranging.

Advern/adjective compinations are not hyphenated: a not too interesting show, a very moving play.

Comparitive forms that use THAN are hyphenated before a noun and not after: a better-than-expected result. The result was better then expected. He was a holier-then-thou preacher. The preacher was holier than thou.

Participle-adverb combinations are hyphenated before a noun and not after: unheard-of bargain. The bargain was unheard of.

Adjective-adjective combinations (used to modify the same noun) are separated by a comma or conjunction. But when they contain AND or OR they are hyphenated: cut-and-dried decision. Up-or-down vote.

Compound adjectives consisting of two verbs are hyphenated before the noun: point-and-click navigating, hunt-and-peck style, hit-or-miss opportunity.

Compound adjectives consisting of a verb and adverb are hyphenated before the noun: get-well card, trickle-down economics, tow-away zone.

Compound adjectives consisting of a verb and a noun are always hyphenated before the noun they modify: thank-you note, take-home pay. (Although there are exceptions like: turnkey operation, lackluster performance).

Phrasal compounds are hyphenated before the noun but not after: On-the-job training. She was trained on the job; After-dinner speeches. Speeches after dinner should be short

Adjective phrases that use AND, OR, TO, BY, IN as a connector are hyphenated before the noun: life-and-death situation, do-or-die mission, hand-to-hand combat, hour-by-hour reports, tongue-in-cheek comment.

When a series of hyphenated adjectives has a common element, use a suspended hyphen as in: four- to six-hour shift, middle- and upper-class buyers.

Standard prefixes and suffixes are almost always solids: antedate, hypercritical, macroeconomics, overconfident, nationwide, fiftyish. The only exception seems to be by-product.

Hyphenate to avoid confusion with another word: co-op / coop, multi-ply (as fabric) / multiply.

Similarly, when a prefix ends in A or I, and the base word begins with the same letter use a hyphen: anti-intellectual, intra-abdominal.

Although when the prefix ends in E and the base word begins with E the phyphen is almost always omitted: reelect, preexisting. (Although there are some exceptions: de-escalate, pre-engineered).

The prefix CO plus a word beginning with O uses a hyphen almost always: co-organizer, co-owner. (But occasionally not: cooperate).

When CO appears with a base word that begins with a letter other than O, don't use a hyphen: cofounder, copilot, codefendant.

Use a hyhen with the prefix SELF: self-destructive, self-serving, self-evident; but not when SELF is the base word: selfless, selfish, selfsame.

The prefix RE (to mean 'again') is not with a hyphen as long as there would be no confusion with another word: repave, reconnect; but re-act, re-side.

When a prefix is used with a root word that would be capitalized a hyphen is used: mid-January, trans-Canada, un-American.

Family terms are hyphenated except when they contain STEP or GRAND. So: great-aunt, brother-in-law. But grandmother, stepson.

Use a hyphen after QUASI: quasi-judicial

When AFTER is used as a prefix it is not hyphenated: aftermath, afternoon. But is hyphenated whan used as a preposition in a compound adjective: after-dinner speech, after-tax income.

Similarly, IN when used as a prefix to mean 'not' is not hyphenated: inconsistent, indecipherable. But is hyphenated when used as a prepositionin a compound adjective: in-flight movie, in-depth analysis.

Some OFF words are hyphenated and some not (check manual or dictionary): offhand, offset, off-key, off-color.

If the suffix LESS or LIKE causes three consecutive Ls, then hyphenate: lifelike, bottomless, shell-less, bell-like.

That covers most of it. The manual is really handy to have around and I'd recommend the investment of the few dollars to haver it around.

 

[sr71plt]

Webster's Collegiate has prefix sections and enjoys havng the endorsement of the U.S. publishing industry as being authoritative for U.S. publishing.

 

[BONNIEBREA]

Webster's Collegiate has prefix sections and enjoys havng the endorsement of the U.S. publishing industry as being authoritative for U.S. publishing.

Gosh, all you really had to post back was: 'Thank you for going to the trouble of posting these conventions. Now I'll know how to handle hyphenation in almost any circumstance.'

I've been hanging around these boards off and on for some while. With all due respect, you remind me of that episode of MASH in which the running joke is how Hawkeye always has to have the last word. At the beginning Trapper says to him something like, 'Have you ever noticed how you always have to have the last word in any conversation?' And for the rest of the episode Hawkeye tries mightily to resist having the last retort in any medical conversation, or joke, or jest, or exchange, but is never quite able to resist. Anyway, your post gave me a giggle in that respect, so I thought I'd share the observation.

 

[sr71plt]

And you remind me of someone who has half-baked ideas of the conventions of the U.S. publishing industry--and who is primarily interested in showing off what they half know--but that's OK with me.

I'm a trained/seasoned book editor in U.S. publishing conventions. Those are the conventions I will speak to when someone posts a question here on what the best usage case is in U.S. publishing.

Gregg's views are interesting--and probably a lot better to follow than whatever Aunt Hazel can remember her sophomore English teacher saying. But Gregg isn't an authority used in U.S. fiction publishing. Webster's Collegiate dictionary is on the subject of hyphenation, and I bet there are a whole hell of a lot more writers who own or have access to Webster's than to Gregg, so it should be no mystery which one is easier and safer for them to access and to follow.

It's fine with me if you use Gregg, though--or that anyone else choses to do it. If they do it in whatever they send to a publisher who uses a professional editor, it won't be Gregg that is consulted on hyphenation in the edit, though. It's also fine with me if you have a hissy fit when I look up and pass on guidance that is based in authorities U.S. publishing uses.

Go ahead and have your little snit. Doesn't bother me.

 

[sr71plt]

P.S., in case you haven't a clue. The Gregg Style Manual is for business writing, not for either fiction or even nonfiction prose. (http://www.mhhe.com/business/buscom/gregg/)

It's like calling a plumber when the lights won't go on in your house. The guy might be handy--and might even, by happenstance, get the lights fixed--but he's a plumber, not an electrician.

And a fiction editor who recommends using Gregg for fiction writing ain't no trained fiction editor.

 

[BONNIEBREA]

See, I knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

 

[sr71plt]

See, I knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

You neither, apparently. Those who accuse others of having to have the last word are just trying to get it for themselves. You may now have it, if you like.