How to say this . . .

[CreamyLady]

I don't know if I enjoy writing or not. I enjoy it while the "spell" is on me, but I certainly don't enjoy the work part, polishing and editing and making sure that the whole piece is fit for consumption.

I don't enjoy it as a competitive sport, either. I listen to people talk about "dozens" of emails, and "hundreds" of votes, and it depresses me. The most votes any of my stories got was 60 -- with low scores, I might add -- and I average two emails per story. Only one poem got any feedback at all.

I write what I like to read, and it reinforces that alienated feeling to know that few others like to read it.

However, what I really dislike is essentially not feeling like part of the group. I don't. I don't feel comfortable among you, and I never feel as if I have anything meaningful to contribute to discussions.

So, if anyone has an encouraging word, now is the time to say it. Am I begging for validation as an author? Certainly not. I'm going to keep writing; those spells produce some great stuff. However, I don't think that stuff will find its way here. It's a closed shop.

 

[cymbidia]

"Still Life With Teeth" was so strong, so angry, and completely devoid of the sort of generic "girl has hot sex with boy" formula stories that get Joe Reader off immediately. It was tightly plotted and drew the reader along by strings of horrified eroticism (or eroticized horror). It was *well done* and an excellent read. Not mainstream, though, and i'm in a position to know that.

Midsummer Night is an ode to self-fulfillment, to the reclamation of one's life. It's a well-plotted, well-told story, glorious in its wild abandonment to the lure of one's own private siren call. However, it is *not* porn, CL, and does not contain the overt or covert detailed fucking, the huge hard cock pumping in and out of her glistening pussy, that so many without imagination demand in their stories.

Your three poems are also beautifully written and evoke a kind of stillness of moment that is delicate and difficult to achieve. Like your stories, they are not about fucking. They are about emotion and aching need but aren't so transparently about sex that they'll even begin to satiate the common Lit reader.

All nine of your stories are like that, actually. All nine are gloriously, exceedingly well-written but they aren't porn-type erotica because you don't write down in the gutter. You don't write porn. You write cocks and pussies and fucking, but *not* in concrete terms. You write *stories*, very good stories, but not the sort of stories that cause readers to jerk off while they're reading.

Unfortunately, Lit doesn't always reward good writers, as we all know. Without sliding back into the ugly morass of voting fraud, let me just say that those who "win" at Lit are not often NOT those who write the best stories. In fact, as we *all* know is true, it's often those who can manipulate the votes in some way, or those whose writing appeals to the masses, to the LCD (lowest common denominator). Neither of those abilities has anything much to do with being a good writer, CL. You know that.

I love your work and i admire you, personally. More and more Lit authors, quality writers like you, are slipping away, unfulfilled by writing for a place with downward-trending standards. Like you, i've become convinced that my stories don't belong here either. I cannot (will not) write the sort of dewy-eyed, eyelashes-aflutter BDSM lite that seems to win and hold the top BDSM spots, week after week, month after month. It's trash and holds no truth; not the truth as i understand it, anyway. It's designed to fulfill and play into little girl "chain me, spank me, make me cum over and over, and then we'll sail off into the moonlight together my so-handsome big-cocked Master" fantasies. While that may be good enough for many, it's *not* what i write, *not* my truth, and so, my efforts, like yours, are overlooked and downvoted. I get some feedback but not alot and the vast majority of what i get is from people with whom i'm friendly.

Such is life. There's definitely a place for porn on the net and Lit is definitely a porn site, no matter how much some of us have argued the opposite in the past. If we write more, or less, or differently, than just basic hard-breathing-get-me-off-now porn, then we need to find the proper outlet for our work; Lit is probably not that place, hmmm? It has nothing to do with us personally, CL, as writers and everything to do with *where* we choose to post our work and to whom we present it. Just gotta find the right audience, darlin'.

~hugs, no snuggles~
b.

 

[Weird Harold]

I don't enjoy it as a competitive sport, either. I listen to people talk about "dozens" of emails, and "hundreds" of votes, and it depresses me. The most votes any of my stories got was 60 -- with low scores, I might add -- and I average two emails per story. Only one poem got any feedback at all.

I've gotten only four or five e-mails out of four stories (three here, and one elsewhere) None of them have 60 votes, although one of them is hanging in as "best of breed" with a score of 4.51 (last time I looked anyway.)

The thing is, that 50-60 votes is a very good vote total for some categories while it's an abysmally low total for others. Some gategories have so many "Hot" designations they need a sprinkler system and others haven't got a single little red H or Green E.

If you're concerned at all about the relative ranking of your stories, you have to consider them in the context of how they do against their direct competitors. If you don't write incest stories, you have less than a fifty-fifty chance of breaking into the top-50 stories.

Since you write for yourself, and not for some other audience, if you are satisfied with your work, that is all that's required. You don't have to compete against others unless you feel the need to. I'm proud of the one story that has good votes, and was selected for the anthology, but I never expected that story to be so well received.

I'm happier with the other two stories here from an artistic standpoint, and it doesn't bother me at all that neither is on page one of it's top story list -- one isn't even in the top stories at all.

I see similar comments by other authors on the "what's your best story" thread. almost all of them don't understand why their "best work" isn't the most popular too.

I don't think of Literotica as a "closed shop" in any sense of the words. The one story I have posted elsewhere, is one that I didn't consider worthy of Literotica. I'm proud to post my best work here, and "compete" against the best erotic writers on the web. I don't expect to "win" against the quality of writing found here, but I don't care -- Just being in the same race is enough for me.

I'm like the last finisher at the Boston Marathon -- winning isn't the goal, participating is.

 

[Guest]

Unfortunately, Lit doesn't always reward good writers, as we all know. Without sliding back into the ugly morass of voting fraud, let me just say that those who "win" at Lit are not often NOT those who write the best stories. In fact, as we *all* know is true, it's often those who can manipulate the votes in some way, or those whose writing appeals to the masses, to the LCD (lowest common denominator). Neither of those abilities has anything much to do with being a good writer, CL. You know that.

I love your work and i admire you, personally. More and more Lit authors, quality writers like you, are slipping away, unfulfilled by writing for a place with downward-trending standards. Like you, i've become convinced that my stories don't belong here either. I cannot (will not) write the sort of dewy-eyed, eyelashes-aflutter BDSM lite that seems to win and hold the top BDSM spots, week after week, month after month. It's trash and holds no truth; not the truth as i understand it, anyway. It's designed to fulfill and play into little girl "chain me, spank me, make me cum over and over, and then we'll sail off into the moonlight together my so-handsome big-cocked Master" fantasies. While that may be good enough for many, it's *not* what i write, *not* my truth, and so, my efforts, like yours, are overlooked and downvoted. I get some feedback but not alot and the vast majority of what i get is from people with whom i'm friendly.

~hugs, no snuggles~
b.

Cymbidia, your arrogance is shocking. Your stories don't rate highly so everyone else's work is crap? I find your comments to be highly offensive. The fact that readers don't like your stories says more about the quality of your work than that of other writers or the site. To insult readers is arrogant, to insult your fellow writers is just plain rude. You don't like the readers, the writers, or the site itself, you're free to take your work (and your sour grapes) to another site.

 

[cymbidia]

Cymbidia, your arrogance is shocking. Your stories don't rate highly so everyone else's work is crap? I find your comments to be highly offensive. The fact that readers don't like your stories says more about the quality of your work than that of other writers or the site. To insult readers is arrogant, to insult your fellow writers is just plain rude. You don't like the readers, the writers, or the site itself, you're free to take your work (and your sour grapes) to another site.

~smiling wryly~ I've never had a "guest" reply to me in a negative fashion before, but i can tell you this: i don't do public brawls, especially with unnamed opponents.

However, i'd like to make clear, if i didn't do so initially, that i certainly did not intend to imply, directly or indirectly, that everyone else's work is crap; such would be untrue and laughable, given the many, many fine writers here.

What i did say, quite plainly, is that many of the very best writers here at Lit NEVER get awards for thier work. Those awards often (not always; i trust all who may read this knows the difference in definition between those words) go, depending on category of course, to writers of far lesser talent but writers who know how to manipulate the voting and/or pander directly to the LCD of the readers. I stand by my assertions.

 

[wild_jay]

CL, writing to me is like fitness. I hate working out, but am always glad that I did. I write to pass the time, and I try to write something that appeals to others. It doesn't always work. One story, which I thought was pretty hot, garnered a whole 5 votes, good scores mind you, but 5!!! Maybe it'll hit the top list sometime in 2005. Depressing, yes, but I never considered it a invalidation of my writing talent.

Literotica has so much to offer I think work tends to get lost. Personally, I can only read a small percentage of what is posted, and use category and the one line description as a guide to what I may enjoy. I am sure I miss some great work.

I think one needs to write for oneself. Yours is the subjective opinion that matters most. If you are pleased with your work, it really doesn't matter how many votes, E-mails, or what anyone else thinks about it.

 

[Cockatoo]

Opening the closure

I wandered onto this site in November or December. I was shy, and didn't decide to start posting until January. Since then, I haven't noticed one drop of elitism or anything but welcome. Maybe I've just been lucky, or ignoring the bad vibes, but I've been very very pleased with my experience as a new author here at Lit, and I've gotten to know some VERY nice people here. Not all my stuff has been received equally well, and I've never gotten any "H" markings, either, but this to be expected. Nobody can really predict hits or misses in any creative venue.

Anyhow, CL, I think it's unfortunate that you feel this way, and I'd like to put in a vote of my own personal solidarity with you as a writer here, ok? You ARE one of us, probably even more so than I am. So, don't let your own blue mood sour you out of the community of people who want to keep seeing you around.

 

[Alex De Kok]

CreamyLady,

STAY!

I hadn't read any of your work before - with over 10,000 stories on this site, I might never have read it had you not started this thread.

I made the time available and have just finished reading 'A spell on you'. I loved it. When I have time, I'll read some more of your work, because I like your style and the not unimportant fact that you can put the words together in grammatically correct forms. I'll try to give you feedback as well.

As far as the writing goes, a famous writer whose name escapes me at the moment, when asked if he enjoyed writing, replied 'No, but I enjoy having written'.

I, and I suspect quite a lot of the other writers on this site, quite often feel the same way.

So far as contributing to discussions is concerned, the old axiom of 'when in doubt, say nowt' seems apt. Never feel that you *must* contribute. Lurk and enjoy, as I often do (when I should be writing)!

Cymbidia

the 'guest' "literotica writer" (funny one, that - a fellow Lit writer??) wrote

The fact that readers don't like your stories says more about the quality of your work

Has (s)he actually read any of your work? Having re-read your post, so far as I can see you were criticising the content, not the writing. You know my opinion, you know too that I think your work to be well-crafted and articulate. I wish I did like your genre. It's annoying to miss out on a good writer because I find the subject matter personally discomforting.

Weird Harold said

I'm proud to post my best work here, and "compete" against the best erotic writers on the web. I don't
expect to "win" against the quality of writing found here, but I don't care -- Just being in the same race is enough for me.

Amen, brother

Alex
___________________________

Still trying to be a writer

 

[Ray Dario]

CL,

Let me say that I have never considered myself to be part of the "In" crowd here at Lit either. But there is room enough for all of us here. The "In" crowd is not really a crowd, more like a few. And Lit is a very diverse community.

I have, just like you, had some bad times and periods where I wanted to just leave and never come back. Times that I felt abused, attacked, and tired of it. But Lit offers so much that I decided to stay. I am glad that I did. I write a very wide range of stories and have recieved a wide range of feedback from them. I don't think I get as much feedback as some other writers here, but I realize now that I get more than some too. I am grateful for each and every feedback I get, yes even the negative ones. I am grateful to the readers who just read my stories whether they vote or not. And I am even more grateful to the volunteer editors, other writers who take the time and effort to help me improve my stories, and the readers who inspire new stories with their requests.

I enjoy the diverse viewpoints expressed in the boards, even if the sense of community has ebbed recently. I know it will build again sometime. It is the diversity that is the strength of this site. It is also the diversity that is causing some of the friction we are all feeling. But this diversity means more than arguments on the boards. It means that no matter what you write, as long as it is written well, there will be people there who read your work and enjoy it.

It is a sad fact that not all readers vote or send feedback. And there are some generalities that can be formulated about voting tendencies. As all generalities there are many exceptions but in general what I see is that readers who consider themselves "sophisticated" do not vote as often as less pretentious readers. Perhaps they fear being tracked on a "Porn" site. A real fear with the American FBI reading everyone's email and tracking internet usage so closely. Maybe they just feel above the voting process. My experience is also that the "sophisticates" do not give much feedback. Maybe for the same reason.

So if you write "Highbrow" stories you won't get many votes or much feedback. But this doesn't mean that you aren't being read. I just don't believe that. I would ask this question of any writer who is not getting the kind of feedback they want, myself included. When was the last time you voted or sent "Good" feedback? I myself am guilty of being lackadaisical about voting and feedback (but I am working on getting better). I encourage everyone who writes and reads the "Highbrow" stories to vote and send feedback. The artist you keep on Lit may be your own favorite.

'Nuff said. I'll shut up now.

Ray

 

[nilequeen26]

Don't stop posting your stuff here by any means there are people here who enjoy it, but do try and find other places as well to post your stuff. I myself have a few places, it is quite interesting the kind of feedback you get from different sites. It's nice to have a place that feels like home to you.

I know what you mean by not feeling like one of the gang, as you can tell this is my first post and feel the same way. Then yet I haven't really tried to fit in either, so it is of my own doing. This place is quite large and quite a place to try and fit in and be noticed.

 

[Alex De Kok]

For the first time, having read a single work by a Literotica author, I've felt compelled to go and read other works by that author. CreamyLady's work is NOT mainstream (!) *porn*, but anyone who likes a well-crafted tale, occasionally with a touch of whimsy, will not go unrewarded. It will take me a long time to forget the last line of 'Still life with teeth'!

Alex

PS: I can't comment on CL's poetry. Poetry and I have a long history of antagonism going back to my schooldays.

 

[CRaZy]

Actually CreamyLady, you already know that I am a big fan of your work. You are one of my top 5 fave writers here on the net, not just at Lit. I can only speak for myself here, but if a story is good, I am MORE likely to forget to vote than if it is just average. In that collective moment of taking a deep breath and just reflecting on a story that is well written, I often just click out of the net. Usually when I reboot, I try to remember to go back and vote.

The reality with porn stories is that lots of people who read them do just want quickies. I don't want to inflame Manu and Laurel by spamming for other sites but you could see if (whispering here) "www.cleansheets.com" or "www.sexythinking.com" are interested in your writing. Both are quite happy if you post with Lit. as well as them. Some of your stories are very suitable for the genres they promote. Keep posting to Lit. though. You ARE appreciated, even if the votes and emails don't reflect this.

 

[alexander tzara]

I've not had more than about 50 votes on any of my stories, CL. I thought 'Still Life With Teeth' was an excellent story.

 

[Closet Desire]

Brilliance...

...in the arts is seldom awarded while you're alive.

 

[Mark Singer]

Hmmmm... and Hmmmm.....

First of all, C.L., I read 'A Spell On You' and enjoyed it very much. Did I vote? Yes. Did I send feedback? No.
Matbe that comes from the fact that I am one of those writers of 'far lesser talent'. Hey...I write that smut that makes the whole world wank... I hate these kind of threads because they, so often, disolve into defensiveness (if that's really a word...okay it is from now on...) Defensificity. Now, THAT is a word!
Myself, I've not only learned how to manipulate the English language, I've learned how to manipulate the voting also. And, I'm proud to say that I pander to the lowest common denominator of the readers.
Hmmmm.... if Cymbidia's response to you wasn't so denigrating to the 'common' reader, I'd agree with her. I know that most of the idiots, who I manipulate and to whom I pander, would agree with me. Reagardless, her positive comments about your stories should be taken to heart, for they are good stories and she is correct in her assessment of them. Not quite enough 'wham-bam' for a writer of lesser talent, such as myself (kidding), but very, very enjoyable. Keep the faith and remember to write for yourself. Write with the heart first, then use the brain to make it fit wherever you'd like to fit it. Fuck the votes. (Just kidding, oh masses of manipulated idiot minions. I'll pander to you momentarilly...)

As for myself, I'm off to manipulate and pander to the idiot masses. It's so much easier than writing good stuff and it's what I do...

Peace, y'all....

-Mark-

 

[Mark Singer]

Jeez...

What a defensive response! I'm so PROUD of myself!!

 

[Mark Singer]

Possibly apologies are in order...

Hmmm.... okay... I've been informed that my last response was possibly a bit more...uh...defensive than it might have been if I'd thought a little more about things. And possibly my tone and my choice of words was a little more 'directed' than it could have been... Hmmm....
I HATE it when I'm corrected and the correcter (Singerism) is more correct than I want. I ALREADY have three or four voices in my head to contend with!

I meant no personal attack here, brothers and sisters. And I offer my apology to Cymbidia. Just a knee-jerk, defensive reaction to a personal 'funnybone' of mine, Cym.

Once we get to know each other, you'll find that I'm not a bad sort. Not the most sensitive guy you'll ever meet, but I do care.
Plus, I can go all night and possess a magic tongue. And I promise I won't say a word...

Someday, when I'm in a calm and sharing mood, I'll discuss my funnybones with y'all. And any other bones for that matter...
Till then, know that my previous ramble was not intended to cause anyone hurt or anger.

Now I must be off to manipulate the minions.... I'm kidding Cym! You know that I love ya! Well, I WILL, once we get introduced. Hey! Someone introduce us, will ya's??

 

[Charly]

I write what I like to read, and it reinforces that alienated feeling to know that few others like to read it.

However, what I really dislike is essentially not feeling like part of the group. I don't. I don't feel comfortable among you, and I never feel as if I have anything meaningful to contribute to discussions.

So, if anyone has an encouraging word, now is the time to say it. Am I begging for validation as an author? Certainly not. I'm going to keep writing; those spells produce some great stuff. However, I don't think that stuff will find its way here. It's a closed shop.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I stopped submitting stories after 4 or 5 because I could not understand what the scoring systme was telling me at all. I won't go into it again, since it got me a condescending answer or two when I brought it up. You do get that from a few people at Lit, but as you can see from the answers to your post, a lot more are pretty thoughtful and decent people.

So, I changed my handle, thinking maybe the old one was offputting. But I haven't got back to submitting except for the current chain story which I thought was a challenge. I still don't know how to interpret scoring results at all.

For my own part, I usually don't read on line, but skim the new stories and download the ones I think will be interesting. Therefore no vote at all, unless it happens to occur to me the next time I pick up a writers work. So the scoring is really hit or miss from the start. I concluded that what I was most interested in was the number of times someone bothered to download it or just the number of hits. So I publish elsewhere where I get that. For some reason, stories that I posted on that site three years ago still have hits and draw an occasional feedback Email. I have no idea why there should be more response there than at Lit. Maybe it is the shear activity level of all the boards at Lit that compete for attention.

Satisfaction is really hearing from people, obviously, and the only reliable way I have found for that is a couple of relationships developed with people met on the net with whom I write joint stories in third person with the characters each of us has assumed. Some of it is pretty good and it is extremely sensual and erotic because it is has become so personal. One has been going on for three years, for example. The first started with a shipwreck and then a world tour and a recent story line took us on a trip on the Orient Express. We come and go as the mood strikes us on story writing, but keep in contact with more or less daily notes.

The one thing about writing erotic stories is that you tend to get more feedback from them than any other type of writing. If you are in a practice and learning mode as a writer, that is valuable. That is why I do it. I hope it turns out to be useful practice someday.

Thanks for starting this string and letting me go on at length like this. You raised interesting questions -- important because we really should try to keep things like Lit strong and positive on the internet.

And, I will definitely go sample your work and definitely will FEEDBACK.

Come on, keep on keeping on!

All the best,

Charly

 

[cymbidia]

Mark, as you know, we're all entitled to our opinions and our feelings. Sometimes we offer them in a way that others take differently than we intended. If i offended you with my original post, it wasn't because i intended to offend *anyone* (such is not often my way) but because i ignored the potentially hurtful apsects of my words while concentrating on trying to get my point across. A more facile writer wouldn't have blundered so badly.

In any case, you're quite gallant for offering an apology for being offended by my offensive words. I apologize for writing them, and then compounding the error by posting them in the first place.

Is there an Official Lit Introducer around here?
cym