How to get more feedback

[KillerMuffin]

I'm seeing the trend again.

"Give me feedback please!" blatant or cleverly disguised. Sometimes even downright rude.

This is how it works and it's very simple.

If you want to get feedback, you have to give feedback. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Look down the lists of this forum. How many authors do you see asking for feedback? How many responses do they get? It's going to be the same for you if you behave as selfishly.

Give feedback that means something. It's as simple as reading a story and answering two questions "What worked for me?" and "What didn't work for me?" You don't have to be an experienced writer and you don't have to have any stories up at all. You just have to be a reader.

You want it? Give first. This isn't a lending institution.

Don't give it to me, open up any one of the gazillions of "FEED ME" threads and you have your feedback opportunity. You'll even surprise yourself. You learn more about writing by giving feedback than by getting it.

Obviously if you give feedback this doesn't apply to you.

 

[OT]

From the Lit submissions Guidelines page (near the bottom) it points folks here to request feedback.

Also on the Submissions page is a link to the "How To" essays and near the top of that page is an article "Beginners Guide To Self Promotion" which also recommends putting a link here.

Even the Sticky post at the top seems to encourage starting a thread for feedback.

Near as I can tell, the intended use for this particular corner of the site is for posting a "beg for feedback thread". I'm sure folks respond accordingly to the clever/rude beggings.

Back after my first Lit post (woo-hoo!) I started (yes a mostly ignored) thread here because I thought it was the "the thing to do" -- based on the path described above, I was just trying to follow the rules.

Of course I wanted feedback, but it was not an overtly selfish act.

So while I (totally) agree with your "giving is the best way to get" advice, I'm not sure I understand under what conditions someone is "allowed" to start a thread and ask for feedback (without being scolded as being selfish)

Maybe you could get Laurel to put your wise words in the Sticky -- something along the lines of at least recommending that BEFORE starting a thread, why not browse around and reply to one or two others.

And lastly, I do agree with your advice, but at the same time I felt unjustly scolded.

I feel better now. Thanks for listening.
O.T.

 

[wildsweetone]

i copied this from the "is it trollish" thread in the Authors Hangout.

to KM, your words prompted me to reply
i admit straight up, i wouldn't dare presume myself capable of giving feedback on your work. it's far above anything that i've written and at most i'd only be able to pass on a very general personal opinion on your work.

even your feedback comes across as so concise that i could never dream of having enough skill to give you anything specifically worthwhile.

it's odd i've seen you mention your lack of feedback unless you've specifically asked for it before.

personally, i like the occasional feedback i receive from my readers (i think i have a couple now). but without downing those feedback emails, if i want a detailed opinion, i ask for it. either on the open 'story feedback' board or through specific authors.

perhaps there are others who feel similar to me.

 

[SexyChele]

I'll start this by saying that Muffie is perfectly capable of answering for herself, but I just felt I had to jump in here.

KillerMuffin is simply saying that if people want feedback to their stories, then it is only courteous to give feedback to other authors as well. Granted, if you've only just arrived at Lit and are a new writer, then naturally you would not have had time to respond to other writer's request. Understandable.

But, as other writers request feedback, and unless the topic is not one that turns you off, why not read the story and give an honest opinion? I can see what Muffie is saying - I see writer's come here, request feedback, and never contribute to anyone else. That is not always selfish, however. A lot of writers are contributing their work publically for the first time, and many don't feel "qualified" to "critique". However, if you are a reader (and we all are, if we write), then you are qualified. It's just a matter of giving your opinion.

Yes, KillerMuffin is a great writer, and I respect her knowledge of the written word. However, if I read something she has submitted, I can respond to it. Maybe something she wrote really got my blood pumping. Or maybe I didn't care for it. Either way, it's feedback and it's valid - as long as it is constructive.

I don't think KillerMuffin was going after new authors who frequent here, or people who post on a regular basis. I believe she is just trying to bring to the attention of all that, just as one would like feedback on their stories, some one else would appreciate it as well.

Heck, I have stories at Lit, and have never asked for feedback here. (although I am thinking of it now!) Yet, I'll give feedback to a writer if the story is in an area that I find interesting. And I'm not the world's best writer. Just sharing my opinion.

 

[Ray Dario]

Well, I've given a lot of feedback to people who asked for it and I've gotten a lot of feedback from writers with excellent observations.

I have a couple of rules though. I don't give detailed feedback unless the writer has asked for it. If a thread asking for feedback already has more than a couple of responses I skip it. If I read a story where the author has asked for feedback and I can't find a single good thing to say about the writing, I skip it. If the request is not couched in words that indicate they really want to learn how to be a better writer, then I skip it.

As to KM's post here, I think I felt some frustration coming from her. I think a lot of writers here feel just like WildSweetOne. They don't give KM meaningful feedback because they are intimidated by her obvious skill. Since KM gives so much to this site and to the writers here, maybe she is getting frustrated by this. She does say you don't have to be a great writer to give good feedback. She also said not to give her the feedback, so maybe I'm way off the mark.

On another note I believe that if you give a writer good feedback, and by that I mean more than just "Great Story!", and give your email address, then the writer should have the good manners to reply to you letting them know you got it. If I give feedback and don't receive a reply, then I usually don't give feedback to that author again.

Ray

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'm not asking for feedback for myself, nor insinuating that I should receive any. I'm asking for feedback for everyone who comes to this board. Why? Take only kills a board. Give and take is what makes it breathe.

I'm not stating rules, or even hinting that it's a rule to give feedback before you ask for it. I'm merely doing my semi-regular reminding that feedback is a two way street. "Give me feedback so I can improve my writing" is often followed by "I'm not giving you feedback because I'm not a good writer/I don't know the jargon/people won't listen to me/insert excuse here."

This is what it says directly under the Story Feedback Forum link: "Post your feedback about Literotica stories you love or hate!"

Nowhere does it say "This is the place to request feedback!" That's what this board has become because no one is interested in giving feedback. Readers don't generally come here, only writers, most of which are looking for feedback. If you have 25 people looking for feedback and 5 people giving it, isn't that selfish? Feedback should be available here, and it's not, at least not very much of it. People should be able to ask for feedback and then receive it from more than one or two people.

I've watched several people spend a month or so handing out a ton of feedback to everyone, and then they leave the board and never come back. There's no give for them, it's all take.

I should point out directly to you, wildsweetone, that I would rather receive feedback from you than from writers as accomplished as DCL or pick-your-bestseller. You'll tell me where the story broke down for you and where it was good for you. That's it. My most valuable piece of feedback this year "I only gave it a 3 cause you kept saying she had the keys when they were locked in the truck." One sentence taught me a great deal more than any one of my recent dissertations on writing. It told me where the story broke down for him and made me pay more attention to my devices.

Presume to give feedback. You're highly qualified.

Not for me-- unless you're highly moved to do so-- but for this board. The give and take of feedback is what makes it live and it's what makes both the giver and receiver learn something about writing.

 

[wildsweetone]

gee thanks i think...

i can't for the life of me help myself... you come across to me as really abrupt KM, boy do i need to get a tougher skin.

ok another way of looking at it. i don't wish to thrust my opinion on others. i wait until i'm asked, after all, that's plain manners isn't it?

i would prefer to get my own stories up to scratch first before offering an obviously incorrect opinion on somebody elses work. makes sense doesn't it? i don't write well (in some peoples opinion) so therefore i don't have the qualifications to pull another persons work apart no matter how tactfully i do it.

and yet another thought... perhaps receiving feedback first ourselves gives us some idea of how to send feedback to others...? not a bad idea when you think about it. after all, i'd rather learn from the examples of others than by putting my own great hoofing foot in my mouth myself.

now that i have had a small amount of practise, i am not adverse to offering my own opinion on another authors work. i will also ask how specific the feedback is that's required and i will also temper it by letting the author know my opinion isn't the be all and end all to life.

btw in no way is this meant to sound offensive, just voicing my opinion with respect.

 

[SexyChele]

Re: gee thanks i think...

i can't for the life of me help myself... you come across to me as really abrupt KM, boy do i need to get a tougher skin.

I think the word is "direct" when describing KillerMuffin. She may seem tough, but you will not meet some one on any of these forums who is more fair, honest, and willing to help.



You would do fine at feedback, sweetone. I've been giving feedback, and who the heck am I? Just another writer/reader - nothing special, certainly. I just know what works for me and what doesn't. And I have my own little pet peeves along the way.

If you can read and have feelings about a story, you can give helpful feedback. It's not always about grammar and such. Sometimes it's just a "it did it for me, because ___________." I just look at giving feeback as attempting to encourage another writer, while at the same hoping to learn a few things myself. (In giving feedback, you are forced to look at your own style of writing.)

 

[wildsweetone]

SexyChele

thank you, you're right.

i'll bring the feedback that i give to my own ability level and that will make it worthwhile for the author.

KM are you saying that this thread is meant to be where authors write out the feedback to the author's story they have just read?

does that mean, i go and pick a story, read it, come back and open up a thread here giving that author and their story my thoughts and opinions on it?

 

[Ray Dario]

WildSweetOne, I don't know if that is what KM was saying or not, but it is one hell of a great idea.

Gee, what would happen if each of us here read one story a week and came back and gave the best feedback we could?

to John Lennon's Imagine
Imagine there was feedback
It's easy if you try
No selfish writer
No one being shy
Just helping all the writers
Giving help today



Naw won't happen.

Ray

 

[Quint]

Gosh, I never thought about this

I like opening up a random story, reading it, and sending lengthy feedback. It's always constructive, although I think most of the authors would prefer it be a little more "you're great!" and a little less "tenth error:..." I never thought about whether authors would NOT want this kind of critique. I live for it. Haven't gotten any that I haven't requested yet, but the thought of it keeps me going. I mean, hey, it's like Hanukkah all year long.

Yet according to many of the people who have posted here, random, unasked-for, lengthy critique is unwanted. Did I misread that? If I didn't, I can see why WSO is put off. I welcome all feedback, however "qualified" the reader is. If the reader wants to ramble, maybe even miss the point for awhile, or says that something is misspelled even though it isn't, that's fine. It shows interest and dedication, both of which really give me a thrill.

Do most people prefer concise feedback, or did I miss the point myself? I so enjoy a nice thorough dissection of a story, especially when I think the author has potential. It's good training for me in both editing and writing, and I like to think it's beneficial to the author.

Granted, "Keep it up. You're great!" can make the difference between throwing your hands up in resignation and giving it one more try. WSO, if you think for whatever reason that you are unqualified to take apart the story and analyze every gerund, this is awesome feedback from you. It's heart-warming and encouraging. However, I'm essentially a technical writer, and so that's where I concentrate my feedback. Everyone has their unique message to give to the author, and nobody's words are without value. (Except that creep who...oh, sorry.)

That's my ramble, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[wildsweetone]

running out of time for tonight...

just a quickie thought.

if that were indeed the case, that we each read one story and gave feedback using this thread as i thought KM may mean...

we'd overload the system. how many authors are there? how many stories are there? see my point? too much.

i'm also not sure a new author would like to be ripped to shreds (excuse the expression) in front of the rest of us either. at least the way the thread now runs we only look at what pertains to us or interests us, right?

also as an author we can ask for specific feedback, whether a general opinion or a mechanical word for word look etc.

isn't it downright rude to just go chucking our own opinions on others? it's not difficult for an unsure author to ask another author or ask openly on the thread.

...here's a thought. maybe this whole section has evolved into what the authors actually want...?

we are all adults in here, it's not a classroom situation. if we want feedback where's the harm in asking for it?

sorry gotta go, hope this makes some relative sense.
wso

 

[KillerMuffin]

No, I didn't mean that at all, WSO.

I meant this:

If you ask for feedback, be kind enough to return the favor and give feedback.

I wasn't being insulting earlier, just my normal needs-to-learn-manners self.


The message I'm getting from you, WSO, is that you feel perfectly okay and more than a little justified asking for feedback here, but you not only don't want to give feedback to anyone else for various excuses-- you're not qualified to give feedback because you're not me or you think it'll over load the system if everyone gave feedback-- you won't do it.


I don't give feedback unasked for. Why not? I am too brutal for those tender new writers you described. Instead, I began a thread so that people could solicit feedback specifically from me. I've given about 60 pieces of feedback in that thread over the space of about 6 months. Two people that I can think of right now have gone on to give anyone else feedback. I did not start that to get others to give feedback, I started it because giving feedback is a tried and true method to sharpen my writing skills. I did it for purely selfish reasons.

It is frustrating, though, that so few people ever care about anyone else or anyone else's writing. It's very frustrating that the majority of people on this board only want to take time, energy, and effort from others and they are utterly unwilling to return the favor.

I'm highly frustrated because I want to help every author here but I can't. I can barely keep up with the few people waiting for feedback from me now. I'm getting no where with it. I know that a single feedback from me is one-sided and not good enough either. More people have to chime in. There has to be a balance of opinions so the author can see how effective the writing is. That's what feedback is about.

I'm frustrated and a little hurt that only a small handful of people of the hundreds who seem to come to this forum will help anyone but themselves.

 

[SexyChele]

At one level, I do like the concept of choosing a story and supplying feedback. Sort of like a "Literotica Story Club"! It might work, as well, if you were to contact the author and let him/her know what you intended to do and obtained permission. I think if I were new I would be a bit hesitant, but I think deep down I would be somewhat flattered.

That, however, is at an intellectual level. I think when it comes to reality, some authors would not want it, and others would be unwilling to give feedback.

Besides, I had thought that was the basis of the "Story Discussion Circle". Too bad the "Circle" can't be promoted to more writers.

 

[wildsweetone]

ok getting the braincells glimmering now

ok if i ask enough or comment enough all eventually becomes understandable to my thick head.

i understand what you are getting at now KM, it makes sense. you're basically suggesting that authors can open a thread as you have done and volunteer to give feedback to other authors. i'm sorry i didn't realise that's what you meant in your original message.

ok while i cannot guarantee to have the time to run to as many feedbacks as you yourself have been loaded down with, i can have a go at giving some back. i think however there is no way to limit the requests, is that right?

does it work something like this...
1. open the new thread and offer feedback services.
2. people put a link on the thread for you to check out.
3. you answer the feedback by clicking on the feedback at the bottom of their stories.

is this right? or, if i opened a thread like that, would it work? i would also have to limit the amount i respond to for i have responsibilities (as we all do).

btw KM i don't really believe that other authors don't care about their peers writing... i think there's a myriad of reasons we don't see openair feedback. from what i've seen, there's a heck of a lot of feedback given back and forth behind the scene. that's not a bad thing either excepting that it makes it look like no one else is giving any. make sense?

ok another question... if i were to give feedback this is the kind that i would give:
1. a general comment about the 'feel' of the story.
2. a comment about anything that to me sticks out as incorrect.
3. a suggestion as to using a spell checker (if needed).
4. a comment about encouraging the author to keep writing.

how does that sound?

*shakes her head knowing she really IS nuts even considering doing something like this* -just kidding-