How to get around the 18 thing?

[Guest]

I perfectly understand the legal issues of characters being at least eighteen years old. It turns my stomach when writers say one of the participants is an eight year old. I think characters should be no younger than fifteen.

I want to know some of the better ways to possibly put a character in my story who is sixteen or seventeen and loophole the 18 rule by not mentioning their age. Is this legal, if it's well done? Or do I actually have to state that the character is 18 for it to be allowable at Lit?

My reasoning is this: We all know sexual interst is pretty intense in most people long before they reach eighteen. Many people begin having sex before 18. I find that first bit of sexual exploration to be a sweet, innocent, sexy thing to write about. Given it's all consentual and the partner is near their own age, of course. The 18 rule, though legally necessary, puts a damper on the excitement of the situation. Is it unacceptable only if I come right out and say the character is under 18, but okay if I only imply it by context?

 

[TaffyJ]

Dagnabbit, I am not unregistered!

I just forgot to fill out the user name part for the above post.
TaffyJ TaffyJ TaffyJ! There, that should take care of it!

 

[KillerMuffin]

It's legal and people do it frequently. They use words like Young and refer to the girls as having juvenile thought patterns and juvenile body shapes.

However, is it ethical? The rule against child pornography is there for a reason. Do you really need to have a 16 year old protagonist?

 

[Weird Harold]

However, is it ethical? The rule against child pornography is there for a reason. Do you really need to have a 16 year old protagonist?

Sort of...

I have a lot of trouble with first time stories that adhere to the eighteen and over rule, because they are seldom believeable. I much prefer the non-age specific versions where age is left up to the readers' imaginations.

Still, there are a lot of stories which don't specify an age directly, but have characters that could only be eighteen or older if they were retarded and held back in school several times. I think those stories should fall under the age ban as if they spcifically stated the ages.

Writing a believable first time story that doesn't violate the age restrictions is very difficult because most people lose their virginity illegally.

 

[PAUL C]

age for sex

It's sixteen here.

In many parts of the world where I have been it's when you reach the asking price. Unfortunately the recipient of the pleasures bought does not often have a say in the matter.

To pretend it doesn't happen doesn't mean it doesn't.

In GB a substantial number of people do it for the first time before sixteen, the bulk between sixteen and twenty and the remainder, excluding those who never do, later.

If you are writing a story, I stress story, then what does it matter the age the participants first do it. There is a disclaimer stating that all who read the stories on this and other similar sites be over eighteen. Are we suggesting that those who read these stories should become sexually aroused? Shudder the thought.

The shelves of 'normal' literature are full of stories of what would be classed as underage sex and would fall outside the guidelines for publishing here. The Bible, Romeo and Juliet just two.

Back to the question. Just say they were very young.

 

[Laurel]

Re: age for sex

It's sixteen here.

In many parts of the world where I have been it's when you reach the asking price. Unfortunately the recipient of the pleasures bought does not often have a say in the matter.

To pretend it doesn't happen doesn't mean it doesn't.

I've always believed that words are just words. I don't put fiction in the same class as reality - if it was, then war novels and murder mysteries would be appalling. I've also been a teen, and know that teens are sexual beings. We're not saying that no one under 18 has ever had any sexual thoughts. We know that most people lose their virginity under the age of 18. I know I did.

I know it's an inconvenience for writers at times, but I want you to know that our over-18 policy is not born out of some moral standard (though we are staunchly against pedophilia). It is there to keep us out of unnecessary trouble. No matter where we draw the line, there will be people who think it unfair. However, as we are not ready to publish stories involving children, we must draw a line. Minors in the US are those under the age of 18, so that's the safest line to draw. If we were in GB, the age would probably be 16...and those in countries where 12 is the legal age of consent might find THAT constraining.

You don't have to give a detailed list of ages at the beginning of each story. However, if you don't list an age but then go on to say that the person is in junior high school, I'm going to assume that the person is either under the age of 18 or was held back a couple of years. If the people in the story can be described as teens, and there's nothing in the story that identifies their actual age (i.e. grade in school), then that's fine with us.

If the plot relies heavily on the person being underage, then I strongly suggest you submit it to White Shadow (whiteshadow.pornopartners.com). They've been on the Net forever, and do take underage submissions.

If you ever have any questions regarding this or anything else in the submission guidelines or any part of the site, please drop me a PM or an email or start a thread here.

 

[Bluetrain]

hey all,

i get really turned off by anything approaching pedophilia or pederasty.

that said, i agree with the above posts in that kids DO experiment anda DO explore sexual realms throughout adolescence, most of which goes un-noticed by adult perception.

so, stories that depict realistic sexual situations between consenting adolescents seem to me more "okay" than any adult/minor stories; hell, i certainly explored and experimented long before I was 18.

however, i wonder if those stories should serve to present a point, more than just titillate?

cheers,

b

 

[Sateema Lunasi]

historical age issues

I write a lot of historical stories (most of which I am working on so they are not posted here yet) so my leading ladies of those "historical romances" are typically (in my head) around 17 years old. However I have outright changed the age to 18 and 19 in some cases and managed not to lose the sense of youthful innocence in the characters. Still, many would say, "It's Victorian England, she's 19 and not married and pregnant with her first kid?"

Well, no, she is not. Simply because it is fiction. Using a little "suspension of disbelief" you can generally get away with youthful characters. Still, if there is no point in the character being 16, then really, don't do it. She can be just as youthful and sexy at 18. Perhaps she was sheltered. Or just graduated high school. Never had a boyfriend, etc.

Let's put it this way...I went to Catholic school, wore the plaid uniforms, danced with the local ballet company, worked as a professional model and traveled in a student exchange program to England...and I was a virgin TILL I WAS 20! Sad and pathetic, but true. It is uncommon, but can be done.

Although when an author makes a character under 16, I have to wonder at the author's intentions (and the reader's). I think of 16 and older as growing into a woman or man, and under 16 as kind of gross and TYTF (Too Young To Fuck).

I am rambling. I will shut up now.

 

[TaffyJ]

Thank you all!

I've got this one character kickin around in my mind and was wondering whether to scrap him or use him with subtlety. Thanks for the advice and more explicit guidance. Not to worry, I have many plots with more mature characters pushing and shoving for their place in the priority line of my imagination.

 

[Laurel]

Here's an interesting article...

This is quite shocking.

It seems to me that if this guy had gone to court, he would've won. You cannot bust people for writing fictitious stories about illegal acts. If you could, nearly every movie script, novel, comic book, etc. written would be a felony.

I can't believe this sort of thing happens in this day & age in the US.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,28793,00.html


Man Gets Ten Years in Prison for Pornographic Diary Entries

An Ohio man has been sentenced to 10 years in prison after writing fictitious stories about torturing and sexually abusing young children.

...Still, Dalton was guilty of pandering obscenity because he "did create, reproduce or publish any obscene material that has a minor as one of its participants or portrayed observers," the indictment said.

 

[TaffyJ]

Yik!!! Hideous!

But, seeing this guy's background, I would have had my doubts if he was just fantasizing, too. Maybe he was one of those who has thouble with the fant./RL issue. Sure he said he didn't think he could ever do that to children, but that's real easy to say when you've been caught! A bit harsh to get 10 years for something he only thought, though! His lawyer should have fought harder.
Remember, that Columbine High kid wrote detailed journals about what he was going to do before he did it. Scary!

 

[SexySecretary]

There are stories like this all over the web

Okay, I like incest stories myself. I even enjoy some rape stories (sick, I know). But the thing is, with under 18 sex stories -- it seems to fit with the incest category. If the subject is 18 or older, they're considered an adult, and what they do is their business. With some incest cases, it's not even called that. It's called statutory rape. Now, I don't approve of the ten year old or twelve or whatever having consensual sex with mommy or daddy.

By the way, Laurel, I love your site.

 

[DopeyAngel]

Hi all, ok so you could imply that the people you are writing about are under 18, but is there really any need? compared to the life span we can experience nowadays, it is still common for people to be referred to as 'young' well into their 20's. Sure teenagers experiment and we all know what goes on, but truth be told it is illegal and that's probably why it's not right to write about, but if you aren't abusing the subject then I guess you aren't doing any harm. Surely the ages of the characters involved are less important than the quality of writing?

 

[Tawny T]

I agree about the pedophilia, I don't write that. But "My First Lovers, Mother, Daughter" was written with the two girls of an age under 18 - at least in my minds eye! I never gave their ages. They were exploring sex at an early age. I had my first sexual encounter with my best friend at age 9, but I was an early explorer!

In trying to write about a younger mother/grandmother, I try to think of a woman having children at 16, then her children having children at 16, so you can have a grandmother at age 32 or so.

We all know it happens a lot earlier than that in real life, but that's my rule of thumb for a young grandmother who I'm going to write about.

I try to avoid saying how old they are if they are of high school age. "Young" and leave it at that.

 

[Eve_of_destruction]

Damn!!! I just sent my first story in last night, and at one point in the story my main character tells the woman he has just had sex with that he will be 18 the following month. One measly little month! How does that work; will Lit email me and tell me they won't accept the story, or do I just have to wait and see if it gets posted? Because I do see where many of the writers are getting around that little obstacle...

I just finished reading "Me and Mrs. Jones" in the mature section (by the way, Stormchaser... a very good read!), and although the main character is 18, his best friend - who is also sexually active - is a year younger. Is there a rule that only the main characters of the story be 18 or older?

I read a LOT of stories in the mature section, as this is a particular erotic favorite of mine. And it's very off-putting to have an older partner seducing a character who has "just turned 18" in EVERY story, because in reality we know that the majority of young men - and women - have already lost their virginity by the time they reach voting age.

And that's basicly the only thing that magic number is, because in most states nowadays one is considered an adult at the age of 17 and will be tried in a court of law as an adult, should they commit a crime. Also in most states, the age of consent (when you can legally have sex with someone and not be charged with statutory rape) is 17.

I think that, along with the "H" icon beside a story denoting a high rating by readers and the "E" icon denoting the Editor's Picks, that there should be an "A" icon for age, denoting that, "This story may contain character(s) under the age of 18, which may offend some of our readers". I realize that some writers would try to take advantage of that situation and submit stories with characters younger than 16 or 17, so you would have to put into the submission guidelines that those stories would be rejected.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth...
EOD

 

[Laurel]

E_o_D!!!!

*smooch*

Hey chickie...good to see you back on the BB! You have mail...

 

[Eve_of_destruction]

*smooch right back at ya, Laurel!!! *

And thanks for the reply... hopefully you'll read the story soon and give me some feedback. And if it's ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY necessary (Sigh...!) then yes, I'll make the necessary changes. But it's ONLY one little month! Dag nabbit...

EOD

 

[Pokerman]

Laurel-

I hate to argue with you (do I get credit for saying I LOVE THIS PLACE ;-) ) but...the guy in Ohio was on probation from a 1998 pandering conviction involving pornographic photographs of children.

His probation officer found the stuff during a routine search of his home. One of the conditions of his probation was probably to stay away from child pornography in all its forms. He violated his probation and SHOULD be returned to jail.

If someone is on probation, and is told he can't own any firearms, and they find a legally purchased hunting rifle in his house, the criminal is in violation of his probation, REGARDLESS of the 2nd Amendment, and should be returned to jail.

This guy was already on probabtion for child pornography, violated his probation and should be punished. Sometimes, it IS that simple.

 

[Cigan]

What???

Ok I know a lot of people have sex before they are 18. But most people do not loose their virginity illegally, and most people loose their virginity after they are out of high school. A lot of people do have sex in high school, but quite honestly they are not the statistical majority. You can have that kind of innocent first time as a senior in high school. I had it in college. What I did, because I wrote a story like this is I made one of the charachters have an innocent attitude and stated he was a senior. Many seniors are 18 and if the reader wants to imagine him younger then that's great. It's not a legal issue. Charachters don't need to be underclassmen in high school to still be innnocent. That's in the mood of the story.

 

[The_old_man]

Eve_of_destruction

I deleted over two pages of my story "Senior Lovers" and rewrote several more to get an acceptable post. The story, uncut, had posted on another site.

I am presently rewriting another story where I have removed over 2000 words and still may have to do some more.

This site is so far above all the rest that I, at least, consider the prestige of posting here worth any rewrite necessary.

 

[Eve_of_destruction]

Laurel talked me into making the necessary changes (My first story is now one of those I was griping about in an earlier post, LOL - the main character "just turned 18", imagine that!) Haven't heard yet if it will be accepted, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

But you're right, The_Old_Man, this is the best erotic story site on the Web, and I'll make any changes necessary to be able to be a part of the Literotica family!

I am curious about something, though, that was brought up in another thread but has not been addressed yet: Why is it that stories about rape, incest, and other things that are illegal are accepted, but stories about someone 17 years old having sex are not acceptable? I mean, this is not to single out Literotica, all adult websites are pretty firm on the over 18 thing (it's the LAW, stupid!), but I'm sorry... if my 17 year old son - or ANYONE, for that matter - were having sex, I'd much rather it would be consentual sex with someone his age or older, NOT with a family member, and NOT forcefully! I guess I'm just one of those people who doesn't understand why so many people read - and write - the rape and incest stories. A story about a 17-year-old boy having sex with his teacher pales in comparison to an 18-year-old boy having sex with his mom or an 18-year-old boy raping his teacher. There is absolutely NOTHING erotic about either of those scenarios; IMHO, rape and incest are just sickening. But to each his own... a fantasy is just that - a fantasy. Whatever rocks your boat, you know? But i still think it's damned unfair that other's can read stories about their sick perverted fantasies and I can't even WRITE about a 17-year-old boy's fantasy of having sex with an older woman!

AAAGH! Okay, I got that out, now I'll get off the soapbox!

And I also wanted to appologize to Stormbringer, I think I mistakenly called him "Stormchaser" in a previous post...

EOD

 

[Weird Harold]

I am curious about something, though, that was brought up in another thread but has not been addressed yet: Why is it that stories about rape, incest, and other things that are illegal are accepted, but stories about someone 17 years old having sex are not acceptable? I mean, this is not to single out Literotica, all adult websites are pretty firm on the over 18 thing (it's the LAW, stupid!)...

This is just my opinion, and does NOT reflect the position of Laurel, Manu, or any other website operator.

The restrictions on underage members and underage sex in stories is a result of the hype about "protecting children on the internet" and the Politically Correct campaign against child porngraphy.

Other illegal acts, such as incest, rape , and murder, have a long history of being the essential "conflict" that good fiction requires and being successfully defended as protected by the first ammendment. "Child pornography" on the other hand is currently the target of a very emotionally charged, politically motivated, campaign by anti-porn forces. While it could be successfully defended, it is a red flag to those who would shut down all porn sites and is much more likely to cause a long and expensive legal defense.

Eliminating underage sex from the site makes it less likely to be targeted by anti-porn zealots in the name of "protecting children."

The bottom line, is that Laurel and Manu have drawn a line as to what they will allow on the site as is their right and duty. I do not know their reasoning, and personally would have set the age limit lower to allow for more realistic "first time" stories. Nevertheless, the limit has been set, and Like The_old_man and EOD, I would rather revise a story to fit than post elsewhere.

 

[Laurel]

I hate to argue with you (do I get credit for saying I LOVE THIS PLACE ;-) ) but...the guy in Ohio was on probation from a 1998 pandering conviction involving pornographic photographs of children.

Yes and no. Nowhere in his probation was he prohibited from writing fictitious stories about underage people. And even if he were, I'm not sure that I agree that Writing = Doing, no matter who he is. For all we know, he could have been writing out his fantasies as a form of catharsis.

Either way, he's not the first to be busted for such material (go luck up the Mike Diana case, in which a well-known avant agarde cartoonist was convicted of drawing CARTOONS of underaged people), and he won't be the last. Even this ruling smacks of "If The See/Write It, They Will Do It." This attitude removes the responsibility from the criminal and transfers it to "society" for "exposing" the criminal to material that "forced" him to commit a crime. It's a cop out.

Like I said earlier in this thread:

I've always believed that words are just words. I don't put fiction in the same class as reality - if it was to, then war novels and murder mysteries would be appalling. I've also been a teen, and know that teens are sexual beings. We're not saying that no one under 18 has ever had any sexual thoughts. We know that most people lose their virginity under the age of 18. I know I did.

I know it's an inconvenience for writers at times, but I want you to know that our over-18 policy is not born out of some moral standard (though we are staunchly against pedophilia). It is there to keep us out of unnecessary trouble. No matter where we draw the line, there will be people who think it unfair. However, as we are not ready to publish stories involving children, we must draw a line. Minors in the US are those under the age of 18, so that's the safest line to draw. If we were in GB, the age would probably be 16...and those in countries where 12 is the legal age of consent might find THAT constraining.

For reasons that are unknown to me, the government and other censorship groups seem to be more concerned with fictitious stories involving underaged people than stories involving rape and murder. We can all agree that a 17 year-old is not a child. As I've said here and other places, I'm not naive enough to think that no one under 18 has ever thought about sex. This isn't a decision we made based on some "teens shouldn't have sex" attitude.

That said, The Over 18 rule, in our view, is a very small restriction that keeps us out of a lot of trouble. I talk to many adult webmasters via email, and all of them are scared. Big adult sites are removing hardcore interracial pictures from their sites because John Ashcroft has already said that interracial erotica is obscene. The chances of him prosecuting that are small, but no one wants to be a target, including us. We're a story site, which means that we're more or less safe, but I still worry. I don't want to be splashed all over the news as "Kiddie Porn Story Site Owner Arrested".

Yes, that's probably paranoid, but then again...weird things are happening right now. A guy who runs several sites was recently arrested because they found TWO child porn pics IN HIS BROWSER CACHE. Not stored on his hard drive - in his browser cache. Anyone who's ever been hit with those endless pop-up consoles may have kiddie porn in their browser cache. Of course, he's a porn photographer and they couldn't get much else on him so they're TRYING to find something that would stick, but it just goes to show how things are right now.

No matter what restriction we placed, there would be those who thought it unfair and unrealistic ("Hey, I lost my virginity at 12!"). But we would not feel comfortable publishing underage stories. There are many fine sites that will publish such material, including Mr. Snoid's White Shadow (whiteshadow.pornopartners.com). The age restriction is really the only "rule" we have, and I really don't think it's that restrictive. If it is, I encourage you to submit stories to White Shadow.

 

[Eve_of_destruction]

Madam has shone me the light! Laurel, you are absolutely right (well, WH let us in on the secret...), and it makes me fear that all of our first amendment rights will soon be taken away from us.

At the age of 12, my grandmother and her little sister were foster children, living on a rural farm with a family that had 3 kids, all sons. One was 33, one was 30, and one was 26. I realize that this was in 1926, but... My grandmother became pregnant at the age of 12 by the 30 year old son. And her sister, at the age of 14, married the youngest son, who was 34 at the time.... she wasn't pregnant, and they never had any children.

My grandmother and grandfather were married for 56 years, until he died at of a heart attack at age 86. She was only 68 at the time, but she never remarried. I was at my grandmother's side when she died 15 years later, and every now and then, laying in that hospital bed the few hours before she died, she'd cry out, "Pops, I miss you so much" (Pops was her pet name for my Grandpa). Throughout their marriage, you could tell they truly loved each other.

But somewhere along the road of life, they became... Conservative. Staunch republicans. "I'm right and you're wrong", and there was no swaying these people.

Because they thought my parents were crazy for letting me date boys when I was only 15. Geez!

"Just like the old man in that book by Nabokov" is a line from the Police's "Don't Stand (so close to me)". It always makes me think of my Grandfather. And Lolita reminds me of my Grandmother because, had she ever read it, I could see her throwing it in the fire as "disgusting filth".

Weird, huh? But I guess it's not surprising to find that I got a lot of my Grandfather's genes, huh? ;-)

EOD