How stupid is it to...?

[shereads]

Use a home equity line of credit to pay cash for a car.

No, this has nothing to do with pornerotica, except that I use gutter language when my 14-year-old car needs another new part. The only thing nice about a 14-year-old car is that it's thrifty (it was thrifty at 6 years, okay? Cut me a break) and that it doesn't matter if it's in a minor accident. Also, I don't have to wipe the dog's feet anymore when she gets in the car.

It depresses me. My job is too unstable to take out a car loan.

The one friend I have who claims to be good at financial decisions like this keeps telling me to drive mine until it falls apart. He owns a beautiful little Honda S2000. I don't want to discuss it with him anymore.

Pros and cons of buying a new car? I know, it makes more sense to buy a used one because a new car is immediately less valuable as soon as you sign the papers. Blahblahblah, etctera, reasonable crap.

What about the hybrid vehicles? I like the Toyota Prius, but if I lose my job I'm moving to the Rocky Mountains. Will a hybrid car have problems in extreme cold?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

what's a hybrid car?

 

[minsue]

Use a home equity line of credit to pay cash for a car.

No, this has nothing to do with pornerotica, except that I use gutter language when my 14-year-old car needs another new part. The only thing nice about a 14-year-old car is that it's thrifty (it was thrifty at 6 years, okay? Cut me a break) and that it doesn't matter if it's in a minor accident. Also, I don't have to wipe the dog's feet anymore when she gets in the car.

It depresses me. My job is too unstable to take out a car loan.

The one friend I have who claims to be good at financial decisions like this keeps telling me to drive mine until it falls apart. He owns a beautiful little Honda S2000. I don't want to discuss it with him anymore.

Pros and cons of buying a new car? I know, it makes more sense to buy a used one because a new car is immediately less valuable as soon as you sign the papers. Blahblahblah, etctera, reasonable crap.

What about the hybrid vehicles? I like the Toyota Prius, but if I lose my job I'm moving to the Rocky Mountains. Will a hybrid car have problems in extreme cold?

If your job is too unstable for a car loan, is it really stable enough to take the cash out of your equity?

That's it for my reasonableness. (MG, is that a word?) On the subject of new versus used, I bought my first ever new car this summer. I loved having a brand new car & didn't care that it was less ecomical than buying used. About a month after I bought it, some asshole egged it. I didn't know people actually did that sort of thing! Since they did it on a Saturday night, we didn't know until my husband left for work Sunday afternoon. Mind you, this is a desert in August. By that time, the shells had neatly fused themselves to the paint via the dried egg white so I lost paint chips when it was washed. (Wow, I didn't realize I was still pissed enough to hijack a thread over it...)

It was still worth it to actually have a new car. That was the point I originally intended to make.

- Mindy

 

[minsue]

what's a hybrid car?

Hybrid cars are almost as cool as that bus you ride. I don't understand exactly how they work (it's been explained to me multiple times, I just don't retain it), but they are a hybrid of gas and electric engines. They get MUCH better gas milege.

- Mindy, pretending to be knowledgeable

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Ah cool. Thanks.

 

[shereads]

what's a hybrid car?

Part duck, part bicycle.

It has a battery that recharges while you're putting on brakes to decelerate. It also uses gas, because otherwise the engineer at Toyota would have had to be murdered.

Advantages other than 55mph average (unlike traditional engines, this one works most efficiently in traffic, because it's repowering when you're riding the brake) - the gov't is currently offering a tax break to new owners and there's a 10-year warranty from Toyota so people won't be frightened away by the newness of the thing.

Also, it just looks cool. I don't think there's white steam like your fabulous Euro-bus, but the car looks good.

I know somebody who has a new Prius, and she loves it, but that's because it's new.

I want to know the downside. Let's here it from you automotive traditionalists and technogy pessimists out there. I'll tell you when I've had enough of your negativity, okay? Also, people in cold climates like Montana, tell me how dumb it is if I ever ever ever might consider living there, to buy other than a Jeep.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I was just looking in Toyota's website and Prius isn't available in Europe yet, so I wouldn't know. It will be later this year. It does look very cool, though.

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[shereads]

SR, I've seen plenty of hybrids out here in Idaho, cold weather and all.

My only concern out here would be how well it climbs, as in up mountain passes, over hill and dale and all that.

It must be great on rugged mountain roads, because I've seen several hybrids in neighboring Coral Gables, which has the highest per-capita ownership of Ranger Rovers and Hummers in the U.S.



It's for all the off-roading they do between the golf course and Starbucks.

Seriously, anybody know somebody who owns one, Ken James? Any read on how it performs in less-than-flat humid conditions? Service record?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Well, just think about it. If it's a hybrid, gas and electrical, even if there are situations where the electrical engine won't cut it, all you have to do is switch to combustion and presto! The same as any other car. Theoretically...

 

[minsue]

It must be great on rugged mountain roads, because I've seen several hybrids in neighboring Coral Gables, which has the highest per-capita ownership of Ranger Rovers and Hummers in the U.S.



It's for all the off-roading they do between the golf course and Starbucks.

Seriously, anybody know somebody who owns one, Ken James? Any read on how it performs in less-than-flat humid conditions? Service record?

My next door neighbors own one, but shortly after we moved to this house their cat decided to die in our driveway. (Luckily, their vet did a postmortem and said it was of natural causes) Our relationship with them isn't anything more than a hello wave so I don't know what kind of experience they've had with the car.

- Mindy

 

[Edward Teach]

Use a home equity line of credit to pay cash for a car.

No, this has nothing to do with pornerotica, except that I use gutter language when my 14-year-old car needs another new part. The only thing nice about a 14-year-old car is that it's thrifty (it was thrifty at 6 years, okay? Cut me a break) and that it doesn't matter if it's in a minor accident. Also, I don't have to wipe the dog's feet anymore when she gets in the car.

It depresses me. My job is too unstable to take out a car loan.

The one friend I have who claims to be good at financial decisions like this keeps telling me to drive mine until it falls apart. He owns a beautiful little Honda S2000. I don't want to discuss it with him anymore.

Pros and cons of buying a new car? I know, it makes more sense to buy a used one because a new car is immediately less valuable as soon as you sign the papers. Blahblahblah, etctera, reasonable crap.

What about the hybrid vehicles? I like the Toyota Prius, but if I lose my job I'm moving to the Rocky Mountains. Will a hybrid car have problems in extreme cold?

Don't know anything about hybrid cars, She, but the interest from a home equity loan is deductable whereas interest on an auto loan isn't. On the other hand, some auto mfrs are offering interest free loans now.

- Ed

 

[A7inchPhildo]

That was funny mindy.

Shereads,

The hybrid is a very good alternative in todays car market. I am not convinced to the all around use of the vehicle as of yet.

Yes it is good on gas.
Yes it will climb large steep roadways.
Yes it is fine in cold weather, maybe better than some conventional vehicles now currently used.

Side affects
You now have a gas engine and a electric motor along with several fuel cells (bateries). More items more funtions more maintenance.
If you break down in the next year or so, fine and dandy you are covered by the warrenty. (I like Toyota BTW, and they have a great warrenty, because they list what is not covered) OK it is saturday and you are out of the area. Who can fix it? Nevermind stocks parts for it? Even most Toyota dealers do not stock inventory yet.

I am not against electric vehicles. I am leary with the new GM hydrogen cell chasis (H2FC). I think the GM or other manufactures (including Toyota) with great incentives are going to make electric obsolete before it really has a chance.
I do know the US goverment is going to mandate the sales of Hydrogen in fuel stations across America. That leads me to believe it will make electric phase out like the "Beta" to the "VHS".

The hybrid will still function just as the diesel and gas powered vehicles do, but the resale in five years will be worthless.

Here is a web site that may answer any of your doubts to what I say. http://www.rebresearch.com/H2links.html


This is only a little skew of an area from this site.



Hydrogen Economy Fact Sheet
U.S.-EU Summit
Cooperation on the Development of a Hydrogen Economy



On June 25, 2003, the United States and the European Union agreed to collaborate on the acceleration of the development of the hydrogen economy.

Both President Bush and European Commission President Prodi have made the development of a hydrogen economy a major priority.

President Bush's Hydrogen Fuel Initiative, announced on January 28, 2003, envisions the transformation of the nation's transportation fleet from a near-total reliance on petroleum to steadily increasing use of clean-burning hydrogen.

President Prodi at the European Union June 16-17 High Level Group on Hydrogen and Fuel cells Conference noted that hydrogen now looks like the best candidate to address sustainable development.

On June 16, Secretary Abraham and European Commissioner for Research Busquin signed the Cooperation in the Area of Fuel Cells, an annex to the 2001 Non-Nuclear Science & Technology Agreement.

U.S.-EU collaboration on the development of a hydrogen economy will provide a strong foundation for the International Partnership for the Hydrogen Economy (IPHE), announced by the United States in April of this year.

It will enable the U.S. and EU to: further the goals of sustained economic growth; strengthen our cooperation to work for universally compatible codes, standards, and regulations; strengthen our cooperation on research and development; and work together to foster public-private collaboration.

Background: Development of a Hydrogen Economy

President Bush's $1.2 billion hydrogen fuel initiative aims to reverse America's growing dependence on foreign oil by accelerating the commercialization of hydrogen-powered fuel cells to power cars, trucks, homes and businesses with no pollution or greenhouse gases.

The Hydrogen Fuel Initiative will include $720 million in new funding over the next five years to develop the technologies and infrastructure to produce, store, and distribute hydrogen for use in fuel cell vehicles and electricity generation.

Combined with the FreedomCAR (Cooperative Automotive Research) initiative, President Bush is proposing a total of $1.7 billion over the next five years to develop hydrogen-powered fuel cells, hydrogen infrastructure and advanced automotive technologies.

This June, Secretary Abraham served as the keynote speaker at the European Unions June 16-17 High Level Group on Hydrogen and Fuel cells Conference.

In Secretary Abraham's speech he noted, " working together with international partners, we can leverage scarce resources and advance the schedule for research, development and deployment of the hydrogen production, storage, transport and end-use technologies."

Under the President's hydrogen fuel initiative, the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by fuel cells.

The hydrogen fuel initiative complements the President's existing FreedomCAR initiative, which is developing technologies needed for mass production of safe and affordable hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles.

Through partnerships with the private sector, the hydrogen fuel initiative and FreedomCAR will make it practical and cost-effective for large numbers of Americans to choose to use clean, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles by 2020.

This will dramatically improve America's energy security by significantly reducing the need for imported oil, as well as help clean our air and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

In April of this year, Energy Secretary Abraham announced the creation of the International Partnership for the Hydrogen Economy -- designed to efficiently organize, evaluate and coordinate multinational research, development and deployment of technologies that advance the transition to a global hydrogen economy -- and invited the European Union to join.

In May of this year, U.S. and EU hydrogen technical experts met in Brussels to identify potential areas for cooperation, including codes and standards, fuel cell technology, production, and storage.

Hydrogen is the simplest element and most plentiful gas in the universe. Yet hydrogen never occurs by itself in nature, it always combines with other elements such as oxygen and carbon. Once it has been separated, hydrogen is the ultimate clean energy carrier.

The U.S. Space Shuttle program relies on hydrogen-powered fuel cells to operate shuttle electrical systems, and the crews drink one of the byproducts: pure water. Hydrogen is one of the most promising alternatives to hydrocarbon fuels, such as gasoline.

Hydrogen can be produced from a wide variety of domestic resources using a number of different technologies. It can also provide a storage medium for intermittent and seasonal renewable technologies, and can be used in combustion processes and fuel cells to provide a broad range of energy services such as lighting, mobility, heating, cooling, and cooking.

The June 16 U.S.-EU Cooperation in the Area of Fuel Cells Annex identifies the following areas for cooperation:

a. Transportation demos, including fueling infrastructure;

b. Auxiliary Power Units (APUs);

c. Codes and standards including fuel infrastructure, vehicles, and APUs;

d. Fuel choice studies and socio-economic and environmental assessment (environmental technology assessment) of critical materials availability for low temperature fuel cells;

e. Solid Oxide Fuel Cells (SOFC) and high temperature fuel cell hybrid systems;

f. Support Studies, including socio-economic assessment of critical rare earth materials for high temperature fuel cells; g. Direct methanol and Polymer Electrolyte Membrane (PEM) fuel cells for transportation and stationary applications.

 

[minsue]

That was funny mindy.

Now it's funny. That morning it was most certainly not funny. The other bit of good fortune is that they happened to be out of town so it was a housesitting friend that I woke up in order to say, "Do you have a calico cat? I think it's dead in my driveway."

- Mindy, able to joke about it now...

 

[KenJames]

She,

My lover and I bought a 2004 Toyota Prius. We ordered it early, which is a good thing because there's now a long waiting list to get one. We've had it for a couple of months and really like it. It's really his car, but I've driven it a lot. It's both powerful and maneuverable, which are important to me, because I'm basically a sports car guy.

The car automatically switches between gas engine, electric motor, or both. There's a LCD screen in the middle of the dashboard with a diagram that shows you what it's doing. That's kind of distracting, at first. It does recharge when you're breaking.

Austin never gets that cold, so we'll probably never directly learn how it handles extreme cold. However, the Wyoming Department of Transportation tested a Prius a couple years ago, in extreme mountains and cold, and gave it a very favorable report. It's not easy to impress WyDOT engineers with alternative technologies, so it must be good. That's one of the things that sold me on the car.

We haven't had the Prius long enough to answer any questions about the service record. I doubt if humidity would be a factor.

I really don't know about the long-term viability of the technology. Phildo makes some good points, although I don't think hydrogen will replace gasoline any time soon. If I didn't think hybrid vehicles would be around for the next 20+ years, I wouldn't have agreed to buy the Prius.

 

[shereads]

Re: Re: How stupid is it to...?

If your job is too unstable for a car loan, is it really stable enough to take the cash out of your equity?

It's a gamble, but less of a gamble than a car loan only because I'll pay cash for the car and the interest on the home equity is deductible. So I get a better deal on the vehicle itself, and I know that if I have to make six months of house payments while waiting for the house to sell, I can make the disastrous move of cashing in my IRA. Not pretty, but neither is the constant surprise expense that I seem to be facing now that the car is this old. Nobody ever has the parts on hand.

Plus there are, um, safety concerns. Yes, that's right. This is not about jonesing for a new car, it's about safety. The car doesn't have airbags and the seatbelts are all worn and stuff, and there are no antilock brakes, plus it's just a crummy old car and I WANT a new one.

Having once bought a green Mercury Monarch because the car saleman got me stoned during a test drive, I have to own at least one more really good new car before I die. My little Honda CRX was the coolest thing on four wheels when I bought it, and it's a terrific little car and it just refuses to die. Like the TV set that I finally got rid of because i wanted a bigger one and got sick of waiting for the small one to break.

I want. I WANT! And because it's been 14 years since New Car Smell, I want something special. I'd love a little VW Cabrio, but they've been around so long I'm convinced that as soon as I buy one, something much more exciting and cheaper and better and faster and prettier will be introduced, and it will run entirely on humidity.

Ford, whom I distrust deeply ever since the Mercury Narc (some letters fell off the nameplate) is going to introduce a hybrid of its mini-SUV. That would make me so happy, if only the Japanese made it. I like the idea of driving way up high after driving way down low in the Honda all these years, being cut off in traffic by trucks that may not have even known I was underneath them.

I can't make myself trust the makers of the Narc, though. Anybody else know from cars? Recommendations for a small, usually one-passenger and one-dog car?

I love the Mini Cooper, but mine will be an only car. So it needs the capacity to bring home bags of mulch in the trunk, and potted shrubs from Home Depot. I've been spoiled by the hatchback. Entire tables and four chairs have been carried in the back of the Honda CRX, with a bungee cord to keep the lid from bouncing really hard.



There needs to be a fun element since I may not buy another car for 14 years. A convertible in Florida is dreary during the humid summer, but a delicious luxury in the winter months, especially at night. The dog is 12 and would like to be owned by someone with a convertible while she still enjoys long rides.

But a convertible is not essential. No gas guzzlers, though, and nothing that feels like a boat when you park it. Driving my mom's sedan after the CRX feels like captaining the Queen Mary.

An SUV only if it's a mini, and a hybrid. Is anybody but Ford about to introduce one?

It was still worth it to actually have a new car. That was the point I originally intended to make.

Thank you, Min. That was the point I wanted you to make.



I'm sorry about the egging of the car. Owning a new car is stressful until that first awful thing happens, but it allows you to relax once the anger is passed. I think they should come pre-nicked on the driver's side door so that we can stop looking for inconvenient places to park.

 

[shereads]

Damn it, Ken James, why did you have to tell me about the long waiting list? Now I HAVE to own one.

 

[shereads]

Re: Re: How stupid is it to...?

Don't know anything about hybrid cars, She, but the interest from a home equity loan is deductable whereas interest on an auto loan isn't. On the other hand, some auto mfrs are offering interest free loans now.

- Ed

Yes, and those interest free loans are terrific for women whose ex-husbands didn't ruin their credit.

I now qualify for the "scofflaw" rate.

 

[shereads]

The hybrid is a very good alternative in todays car market. I am not convinced to the all around use of the vehicle as of yet.

Yes it is good on gas.
Yes it will climb large steep roadways.
Yes it is fine in cold weather, maybe better than some conventional vehicles now currently used.

Side affects
You now have a gas engine and a electric motor along with several fuel cells (bateries). More items more funtions more maintenance.
If you break down in the next year or so, fine and dandy you are covered by the warrenty. (I like Toyota BTW, and they have a great warrenty, because they list what is not covered) OK it is saturday and you are out of the area. Who can fix it? Nevermind stocks parts for it? Even most Toyota dealers do not stock inventory yet.

Phildo, thank you. Good points. Not sure I believe the hydrogen fuel thing will come to pass - we may need it to go to Mars - but your points about the technology being new and still evolving, and affecting resale value, are well taken. Of course, it helps that I currently drive a car whose resale value depends on the number of bag boys at Publix Supermarket who are willing to bid on it. A hot commodity among boys with $300 to spend on a car, my Honda CRX!

Yes, I think the bit about repairs and parts availability is a good reason to stay away from any first-year car model, and especially a new-tech car.

Is the tax incentive substantial?

(I feel too lazy to research this myself. Thank you for indulging me. What happened to your ignore function? I thought we were ALL on it?)

 

[Tigerguy001]

One thing to look for in the excluded repairs they cover is the cost of replaceing the fuel cells/ batteries in about 3-5 years you need to replace them all at once and ive heard it costs around $3,000 if they dont cover it and call it " routine maintence" just my two cents .

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[KenJames]

Damn it, Ken James, why did you have to tell me about the long waiting list? Now I HAVE to own one.

Sorry about that. At least Toyota is so thrilled with Prius sales that they're increasing production dramatically.

For me, another selling point for the Prius was that the other hybrids are all a lot smaller. I'm over 6 feet tall and weigh 215 pounds, so that's an issue. I'm even comfortable in the back seat.

 

[KenJames]

I grew up in Wyoming SR. I can vouch for how cold it gets there. It makes a witches tit seem like a balmy, tropical alternative.



(During my senior year of high school, school was closed for a week as temperatures hovered around -75'F with windchill. Brrrrr....)

I grew up in Wyoming, too, and finally left after graduating from college. I lived through those -75 windchills and 36" snowfalls.

That's one of the big reasons I live in Austin now.

 

[KenJames]

One thing to look for in the excluded repairs they cover is the cost of replaceing the fuel cells/ batteries in about 3-5 years you need to replace them all at once and ive heard it costs around $3,000 if they dont cover it and call it " routine maintence" just my two cents .

Good point!

We bought the extended warranty (seven years or 75,000 miles) which covers the batteries, which cost considerably more than $3000. I think Toyota is serious about addressing buyer's concerns because they want to sell a lot of hybrid vehicles.

 

[pop_54]

Hi all

We do have a few Hybrids on test over here, but none in public use yet, there shouldn't be a problem as long as they can stand the wet weather.

I don't know much about car finance in the states but it's very simple to get here even with bad debt records. Banks and the like are falling over each other to lend money out. Idiots.

I never buy new though, just me, I'm not really tight arsed or anything but a car or whatever is just a means of getting from A to B in my book and there are more important things to lash out cash on.

We have two Rovers, both second hand, both trouble free for many thousands of miles and both purchased for less than £2000,
($3200'ish). We have no need for huge four wheel drive's over here in flat UK, but most of the yuppies have one, it seems they're essential for doing the shopping at the mall.

pops........