How stupid are Brits?

[Dribble]

They are going to mix and match COVID vaccines. If they give you one for the first...instead of giving you a second of the same type, they will give you whatever they have. Of course, this is baffling to all the pros that developed the vaccines. It just proves that the US isn't the only country being run by imbeciles. Let me explain the issue....this simply won't work.

 

[Ranger3753]

Yeah, that doesn't seem like the wisest course of action, especially since the mechanism of action in the various vaccines is different in many cases.

But you're right, we're hardly the only country being run by imbeciles.

 

[RelentlessOnanism]

They are going to mix and match COVID vaccines. If they give you one for the first...instead of giving you a second of the same type, they will give you whatever they have. Of course, this is baffling to all the pros that developed the vaccines. It just proves that the US isn't the only country being run by imbeciles. Let me explain the issue....this simply won't work.

I imagine someone with at least a modicum of scientific expertise has looked into this, and decided it's not a bad idea. I don't think it's an idea that's just been plucked out of thin air.

But still, there are plenty of idiots in the corridors of power over here.

 

[Dribble]

Yeah, that doesn't seem like the wisest course of action, especially since the mechanism of action in the various vaccines is different in many cases.

But you're right, we're hardly the only country being run by imbeciles.

There is no doubt Trump is dumber...but seriously...you wanna try a new vaccine combination that HAS NEVER BEEN TESTED? This is unheard of.

 

[Dribble]

I imagine someone with at least a modicum of scientific expertise has looked into this, and decided it's not a bad idea. I don't think it's an idea that's just been plucked out of thin air.

But still, there are plenty of idiots in the corridors of power over here.

Both producers of the 2 vaccines have said this is a horrible idea.

1) If the mRNA sequence is not identical...what is the chance 2 independently produced vaccines used the same sequence? Then you are getting 2 shots for different things. Antibodies are unique. Doesn't matter if they are for the same disease.

2) it has not been tested.

Sounds like what we should give Republicans here

 

[LupusDei]

Both producers of the 2 vaccines have said this is a horrible idea.

1) If the mRNA sequence is not identical...what is the chance 2 independently produced vaccines used the same sequence? Then you are getting 2 shots for different things. Antibodies are unique. Doesn't matter if they are for the same disease.

2) it has not been tested.

Sounds like what we should give Republicans here

Well, both supposedly code the same target protein. But yeah, mixing mRNA vaccines... a brand new technology to being with, it's too much asking for trouble.

They floated idea to mix AstraZeneca Oxford with Russian Sputnik, both being more traditional modified adenoviruses supposedly exposing the same target protein, but on different base viruses, the rationale was that it might in theory be even more efficient than each one separately as it would exclude chance of immune response against the base adenovirus to diminish efficiency of the second dose. And no, I don't know does that make actual sense or not, but that's what I heard.

 

[LupusDei]

Tangential: It's said the Pfizer/BioNTech had tested their vaccine at a 3x dose for safety with satisfactory results. Well one care home in Germany expanded that research trough error of pure stupidity. 8 employees received 5x dosage -- the whole transport bottle -- of the vaccine each. Four reportedly developed a flu-like fewer overnight, other four displayed no side effects. Seems at least survivable.

 

[DeYaKen]

They are going to mix and match COVID vaccines. If they give you one for the first...instead of giving you a second of the same type, they will give you whatever they have. Of course, this is baffling to all the pros that developed the vaccines. It just proves that the US isn't the only country being run by imbeciles. Let me explain the issue....this simply won't work.

That isn't what is going to happen. people who receive a first dose of Pfizer - Biontech vaccine will receive a second dose from the same supplier. Likewise, those who get the Astra-Xenica vaccine will get both shots from that supplier. Public Health England has issued instructions to that effect.

We are rolling out both vaccines at the same time but at the moment they are going to different centres. Some centres are not kitted up to handle the Pfizer-Biontech vaccine since it has to be stored at -79 degrees C and they don't have freezers that go down that low. So far only hospitals have been using it.

The Astra-Zenica vaccine can be stored in a domestic fridge so many centres will only be administering that vaccine.

Here is where the imbecile factor comes in. Our glorious leaders have decided that rather than giving the doses 21 days apart we will now be giving them 12 weeks apart. The manufacturers have made it clear that the 21 day period is the only one they have tested and so is the only one they have any evidence for.

No one knows the effect of increasing the gap like this but our leaders hope that the first dose will give enough immunity to reduce the number of people requiring hospitalisation. Even if this works it will only give a nine week bonus. After that the number of vaccinations per day will fall back as people come in for their second dose. In effect our leaders are gambling with our health in an effort to kick the can down the road a bit.

 

[RobDownSouth]

They are going to mix and match COVID vaccines. If they give you one for the first...instead of giving you a second of the same type, they will give you whatever they have. Of course, this is baffling to all the pros that developed the vaccines. It just proves that the US isn't the only country being run by imbeciles. Let me explain the issue....this simply won't work.

I hope you are incorrect about this. My doctor says it's an absolute "must" to use the same vaccine manufacturer for the first and second shot.

 

[Dribble]

Well, both supposedly code the same target protein. But yeah, mixing mRNA vaccines... a brand new technology to being with, it's too much asking for trouble.

They floated idea to mix AstraZeneca Oxford with Russian Sputnik, both being more traditional modified adenoviruses supposedly exposing the same target protein, but on different base viruses, the rationale was that it might in theory be even more efficient than each one separately as it would exclude chance of immune response against the base adenovirus to diminish efficiency of the second dose. And no, I don't know does that make actual sense or not, but that's what I heard.

Pfizer and Moderna do target the same protein. But they are not targeting the full protein...just a small part. If the code is not identical, our immunity system will think there are 2 different things they are fighting and create 2 different antibodies. They don't work collectively. That is why a second dose was required in the first place. I don't have the sequence to look at...but I have played with genetic sequences in population studies and have had classes in immunogenetics. One base pair difference can ( doesn't have to...but can) have very unexpected results. You don't know unless you test it...using a planned study.

The Astra and Pfizer vaccines are two very different beasts. Mixing those will even be less ineffective.

I am glad to see this morning their Minister of Health listening to the manufacturers and retracting on this.

As for spreading out the time period for the second injection. My understanding is it won't make the vaccine "less" effective long-term. But you have not built full immunity until the second shot. Delaying the second dose will not give full immunity to those that need it short-term. This proposal places emphasis on getting numbers increased...but not immunity increased. It doesn't prioritize those that will die. It prioritizes numbers on paper. I think this is a poor decision as well. Far better to make sure the most critical are fully immune...not partially immune. They would die even after having the first dose cause they are the critical

 

[Dribble]

I hope you are incorrect about this. My doctor says it's an absolute "must" to use the same vaccine manufacturer for the first and second shot.

It is an absolute must. They should give you documentation of what your first dose is. Save it. Take it to the second dose. Do not allow anyone to tell you differently.

I can be wrong...it might work...if the mRNA sequence is identical enough that the antibodies produced sense the same protein region. But how would you know unless it was tested? If it doesn't work...you will not be immune and 2 years from now...you can get sick

 

[oggbashan]

It is an absolute must. They should give you documentation of what your first dose is. Save it. Take it to the second dose. Do not allow anyone to tell you differently.

I can be wrong...it might work...if the mRNA sequence is identical enough that the antibodies produced sense the same protein region. But how would you know unless it was tested? If it doesn't work...you will not be immune and 2 years from now...you can get sick

Two years from now?

No one knows how long any vaccine produces immunity.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Two years from now?

No one knows how long any vaccine produces immunity.

In general, I agree. I'd point out that some vaccines are given on a periodic schedule...for example, I get tetanus vaccine boosters on birthdays that end in "0".

 

[Dribble]

Two years from now?

No one knows how long any vaccine produces immunity.

We know both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines created T-cells...so yea...we have a very good idea for the next decade

 

[DeYaKen]

As for spreading out the time period for the second injection. My understanding is it won't make the vaccine "less" effective long-term. But you have not built full immunity until the second shot. Delaying the second dose will not give full immunity to those that need it short-term. This proposal places emphasis on getting numbers increased...but not immunity increased. It doesn't prioritize those that will die. It prioritizes numbers on paper. I think this is a poor decision as well. Far better to make sure the most critical are fully immune...not partially immune. They would die even after having the first dose cause they are the critical

The thing is that there is absolutely no evidence to support this extended period. None of the manufacturers have done any research on extended period between doses. the twelve weeks is a value pulled from the air. All of the information given on this so far consists of what government spokespersons THINK will happen. This is a government that claims to follow the science but what they are following here are guesses. They THINK that one dose will give enough immunity to keep you out of hospital and that is what they are hoping for, to stop the hospitals being overwhelmed. However, just as there is no evidence that the first dose will do that there is also no evidence that the second dose will be effective after the extended period.

 

[stickygirl]

They are going to mix and match COVID vaccines. If they give you one for the first...instead of giving you a second of the same type, they will give you whatever they have. Of course, this is baffling to all the pros that developed the vaccines. It just proves that the US isn't the only country being run by imbeciles. Let me explain the issue....this simply won't work.

Please cite your source before writing off an entire nation.

Defence of decision to stretch the second dose is based on the surge in cases in the UK and that the first dose offer immediate protection, the second extends the immunity period

"Those who are first to receive the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine should do so on the basis of agreement to return for their second dose within a specific fortnight during the period 4 to 12 weeks after their first dose.

"The idea to just vaccinate as many vulnerable individuals as possible with just one dose of either vaccine (Pfizer or AstraZeneca) to start with, is a good approach given the recent surges of COVID-19 cases since Christmas – and we may yet see further surges due to the Christmas Day amnesty that allowed multiple households to meet under one roof."

 

[DeYaKen]

Please cite your source before writing off an entire nation with BS.

Defence of decision to stretch the second dose is based on the surge in cases in the UK and that the first dose offer immediate protection, the second extends the immunity period
"

There is no evidence to support this as the tests have not been done. The manufacturers have said so. If there have been no tests there can be no evidence.

 

[stickygirl]

There is no evidence to support this as the tests have not been done. The manufacturers have said so. If there have been no tests there can be no evidence.

You're responding without reading the linked articles. Pls. Besides, none of these vaccines have a been around long enough to predict the best regimes, which is why clinical trials are ongoing: evidence cannot be provided without tests.

"Not surprisingly, only the two standard dose regimen has been approved by the MHRA – with a variable interval (4-12 weeks apart) between the first and second dose – for all ages 18 years and above, despite relatively limited data for the over 65 year groups.

“Not enough data was available to approve the low dose vaccination regimen."

We have not ordered the Russian vaccine.
The UK has ordered the following

• BioNTech/Pfizer – Phase III - 40 million doses secured
• Oxford/Astra Zeneca – Phase III - 100 million doses secured
• Moderna – Phase III - 7 million doses secured
• Novavax – Phase III - 60 million doses secured
• Janssen – Phase III - 30 million doses secured
• GSK/Sanofi – Phase I / II - 60 million doses secured
• Valneva – Phase I / II - 60 million doses secured, with an option to acquire a further 130 million if the vaccine is proven to be safe, effective and suitable

 

[stickygirl]

I have faith in the science, far less in the politicians... okay, zero in the politicians.

There are limited clinical trials to test the unknown efficacy of mRNA and the Oxford vectored vaccines in combination ( apologies to the OP ). "Clinical trial" - hardly worth a kneejerk reaction, certainly worth trialling, hardly likely to go into public use because there aren't enough vaccines available as it is.

"In broad terms, the Pfizer vaccine, provides a mRNA blueprint to educate the immune system as to what it needs to fight against.... Looking at the results released from the AstraZenica trails it appears as though the Oxford vaccine is providing a very robust response from the immune system."

 

[DeYaKen]

You're responding without reading the linked articles. Pls. Besides, none of these vaccines have a been around long enough to predict the best regimes, which is why clinical trials are ongoing: evidence cannot be provided without tests.

"Not surprisingly, only the two standard dose regimen has been approved by the MHRA – with a variable interval (4-12 weeks apart) between the first and second dose – for all ages 18 years and above, despite relatively limited data for the over 65 year groups.

“Not enough data was available to approve the low dose vaccination regimen."

If there is not enough evidence to make a decision on the low first dose it begs the question why has a decision been made to extend the interval between doses when there is no evidence at all to back it up. This is not a decision by the scientists. Scientists make decisions based on evidence. This decision has ben made based solely on opinion. It is a political decision.

 

[Dribble]

Please cite your source before writing off an entire nation.

Defence of decision to stretch the second dose is based on the surge in cases in the UK and that the first dose offer immediate protection, the second extends the immunity period

"Those who are first to receive the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine should do so on the basis of agreement to return for their second dose within a specific fortnight during the period 4 to 12 weeks after their first dose.

"The idea to just vaccinate as many vulnerable individuals as possible with just one dose of either vaccine (Pfizer or AstraZeneca) to start with, is a good approach given the recent surges of COVID-19 cases since Christmas – and we may yet see further surges due to the Christmas Day amnesty that allowed multiple households to meet under one roof."

Wrong. You do not get full immunity with one dose. You get 95% immunity with both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines with 2 doses. This is a FACT. Now I know math probably isn't your forte...so let's try to make this simple. You have 1000 people given 2 doses within 21 days. That means 950 of them will not get sick and will have NO impact on future health care system issues. That means 50 potentially can. With me so far?

Now, instead you spread the vaccines out. Instead of 95% immunity...you have a short-term effectiveness of 45%. That means...you are only removing 450 people from potentially impacting the health care system. That means 550 can. Now you are going to inject another 1000 people INSTEAD of giving the second dose. At 45% efficiency...that is another 450 people...for a total of 900. Last I heard...950 is bigger than 900 in the same time period.

This method increases the potential number impacting the health care system. That is not the goal...the goal is removing those that impact the health care system.

Far better to given 2 doses to those critically ill.

I stand by my statement...you are dumber than fuck

 

[LupusDei]

They floated idea to mix AstraZeneca Oxford with Russian Sputnik,

"They" in that statement are Russians, and they have announced a trial Russia ready to trial combined AstraZeneca, Sputnik V vaccine in Ukraine

 

[jaF0]

The BB is becoming strong in driBBles.

 

[stickygirl]

Wrong. You do not get full immunity with one dose. You get 95% immunity with both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines with 2 doses. This is a FACT. Now I know math probably isn't your forte...so let's try to make this simple. You have 1000 people given 2 doses within 21 days. That means 950 of them will not get sick and will have NO impact on future health care system issues. That means 50 potentially can. With me so far?

Now, instead you spread the vaccines out. Instead of 95% immunity...you have a short-term effectiveness of 45%. That means...you are only removing 450 people from potentially impacting the health care system. That means 550 can. Now you are going to inject another 1000 people INSTEAD of giving the second dose. At 45% efficiency...that is another 450 people...for a total of 900. Last I heard...950 is bigger than 900 in the same time period.

This method increases the potential number impacting the health care system. That is not the goal...the goal is removing those that impact the health care system.

Far better to given 2 doses to those critically ill.

I stand by my statement...you are dumber than fuck

Hey sweets. I didn't make those statements - that why I cited the links. Shout all you like

 

[stickygirl]

"They" in that statement are Russians, and they have announced a trial Russia ready to trial combined AstraZeneca, Sputnik V vaccine in Ukraine

I'm sure limited clinical trials are going on and it's only right they should. These are all new vaccines - that's the nature of where we are. No one is doing a Walmart Mix n Mix as the OP suggests