How others see us. Examples.

[Pure]

The Earl said,

Pure: Never mind whether you have a grievance with Pear, or any prior history,[1] isn't it simply manners to ask, even if you know she'd say no? [2]And surely if you know that someone doesn't want their story discussed, wouldn't it be polite to leave it alone? There are a few other authors out on Lit, I'm sure you could find one to suit your needs.

[3]I don't think it's a matter of grudges of legality. It's a matter of manners and I think you could have done better.

I'm just going over this old ground once, but your posting is a good one to answer, I think.

To your first question, yes, it would have been good manners to ask. I regret not doing so. Indeed I would apologize to her if it would mean anything.

It's always better to be courteous in all cases, *even where one is being shown discourtesy.* Look at how good policemen deal with insults.

In mitigation, I can only say that continuing discourtesy was reacted to (I merely notified her at the time of the posting); 'flaming' or insulting posts being directed at me for many months, and even a couple days ago, *subsequent to this flare up. But that is not an excuse.

To your second question: If an author publishes anywhere, or posts to a free site, I believe *anyone may comment as much as they like, and using as many quotations as they like within the fair usage guidelines. So yes, it would be polite to ask, but no I would not accept any author's veto over 'critical' discussion, which, you will note, did occur. (I.e., she wasn't just flamed in the guise of criticism as has been suggested.) Hence it's also permitted to critically discuss works by those who swear enmity. Indeed in 'free speech' areas it's permitted to say, of either strangers' or enemies' works, "This is trashy writing."

To your last point. Yes my manners could have been better. I'm sure they will improve. That said, the issue of 'unmannerliness' is NOT the same as US law breaking or Lit. rule breaking. It utterly confounds the discussion to blur that issue.

Other than ceasing to comment on a particular story, I'm open to your suggestions as to how to resolve matters and bring peace. I even made proposals in the thread and privately, and they were all ignored.

Best,

J.

 

[Pure]

To Catalina,

I believe the posting leaves many issues mysterious. Here's one crucial one.

It has been acknowledged their is both breach of copyright and rules, but the decision was made to move the thread, not delete most of it's [sic] content.

The passive voice obscures the matter. I've asked several times, assuming you are speaking for or reporting Laurel who declines to make a statement:

Did Laurel reach a definite conclusion that there was a clear breach of US copyright law? that there was a clear breach of Literotica rules? On the legal issue, what if any expert opinion did Laurel use in reaching her conclusion?

Please give answers, 'yes' or 'no', and then explain as you wish.


J.

 

[Guest]

I know my mind is a bit fucked up, and I also know why. I also fully comprehend why I wrote a nonconsent/reluctance story, and my motivation behind it. But, that ain't open for discussion.

Well, you motivation is irrelevant. But 'nonconsent' stories and concepts have several times been discussed or commented on by actual survivors of rape, date rape, forced sex etc. Yours too are open for comment, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course we know that 'fantasy' is highlighted in nonconsent stories just as in Dom/Sub stories. So "It doesn't happen that way" is NOT by itself, a valid objection to a piece of fantasy fiction. BUT there are occcasionally efforts to capture something 'real' and comments of those with experience can go to this 'reality' question, though there are many others in looking at literary merit.

I hope these issues can be talked about with a little less 'fire'; there's been enough in this thread, imo.

J.

Hi Pure,

I completely agree with your last statement, and I just want to publicly say that there will be no more animosity in my tone, at least.

We are all civilized adults, and we should be able discuss certain things without emotions getting in the way.

I guess I was just trying to find some answers of my own. I'm also thinking that maybe this isn't the place to find those answers.

All the best to you,

Katie

 

[minsue]

Hi Etoile, in response to your post (below). I say the same as I've done in gblt (to your slightly more polite and fair posting there), while honoring your desires.

It's pretty hard to get into the 'motives' thing, and 'prove' morality. Maybe mine are as evil as Perd says, or mixed or 'pure'.

I think the issue might arise [at GBLT], even yes, if it would take a nasty guy like me, but there are such, ya know. And 'character' (as it's believed to be) shouldn't be the basis of any rules or ruling--I give Catalina credit for that.

So I shall take it down [from GBLT], as recommended by you.

I believe the only insights about this thread will come from reading it; whether the issues are dealt with substantively. The 'whys' and attempts to link present imputed motives, and past imputed ones is pure (!) speculation.

In short, confirming evidence of your skepticism or Perd's grudge view would be that all that happens here is flames against her and her work.

BTW, if what mainly happens here is flames from perd and pups, does that support my view that maybe there's a 'second side' to the dispute, that rights and wrongs don't lay out neatly as is being suggested? {I'll answer, to save space: No; righteous flames and namecalling don't count, grudges and grudge postings of the righteous are entirely justified, their eternity reflecting the eternity of the evil they confront.}

Best,
J.

PS. Your line: The only way it could happen in GLBT Chatter, Pure, is if somebody like you posted an excerpt from a story.

Exactly.

----
Etoile said,

Pure, I think it was totally inappropriate of you to post your complaints over in GLBT Chatter. Including that little paragraph about "ooh, this could happen here" was total bullshit. You whined on and on about what's happening here in BDSM Talk, and mentioned "this could happen here" as an aside. The only way it could happen in GLBT Chatter, Pure, is if somebody like you posted an excerpt from a story. I think you were just trying to get more eyeballs on your thread here, and more support for your perspective. You are not a regular poster in GLBT Chatter, and that makes me think even more that you were just trying to drum up supporters among people you probably don't even know.

I'm still working my way through this truly bizarre thread, but I've got to say I don't think I've ever seen more scare quotes in one place before.

-'Mindy'

 

[lucky-E-leven]

I read this entire thread last evening (much to my chagrin). Unfortunately for me, there were just enough really intelligent and carefully worded posts to keep me reading through the rest of it. Otherwise, it's a steaming pile of horse shit.

I am a voracious reader and have a great deal of respect for people who write. It's amazing to me that this topic even exists in your mind Pure. Some of it has merit, but I believe it's been said here several times before, that with every new reader there is a new perception of a story's message.

I've no experience in the realm of BDSM, but imo the initial topic is applicable to all fiction. Having first hand experience of a story topic, to me, is absolutely not necessary. Having knowledge on anything you write is necessary. How you come to gain this knowledge is inconsequential, nor should this knowledge be challenged/discredited because it is not first-hand.

I am relatively new to writing, but learned early on that in order for a piece of fiction to translate well to a reader (writing skills aside) the author must have a certain level of personal feeling/passion on the matter or a really kick ass imagination. I've read some wonderful fiction-based accounts of historical events by modern writers that certainly did NOT have first-hand experience. I've also seen those stories held up to written documentation of the event and proven extremely accurate.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I agree with Etoile that writing fictional erotica in categories you may not have personal experience in, is totally plausible and not as difficult to fathom being effective, as you propose (with one tiny disclaimer of some Story of O). I love this place and the beautiful cloak of anonymity. It allows a writer to bend and stretch into realms where they know very little and test their skills on a pretty open-minded audience. If the story doesn't work, the audience will let you know. If it does work, good on you for doing your homework, making it personal enough to add a fair amount of your own passion and presenting it in such a way that a reader can take from it what they will and deem it a success. (An aside: I think if a reader knows you don't have experience before they read a piece that they do not give it its proper due.)

***watch this neat little trick I learned***

Pure said:

So I don't think it's irrelevant if one looks at soldiers' reactions to a war story by a non soldier; nor Black persons reactions to to white authors' stories about them, say, "Uncle Tom's Cabin."

Lucky says:

Not irrelevant, but certainly not congruent to opening up such a specific topic (BDSM) to such a broad and sweeping audience (planet Earth). I know you never meant to bring this thread to the AH, but from what I've read many members of that broad and sweeping audience, with the common strand of BDSM interests, had a hard time embracing the initial question and diving into the heart of the matter.

This leads me to believe that (as was posted many times) each individual's experiences make them the authority on nothing more than their 'likes' and 'dislikes' or individual understanding. (The only conversation that can be had about 'vanilla' vs. 'kink' is opinion based, which surprises me as you're normally such a statistics/facts/proofs fanatic.) It also makes me believe that people read fiction for the sake of reading fiction. If one is looking for a more tangible or explanatory or realistic depiction of 'vanilla' or 'kink' perhaps they should seek out a work of non-fiction. Otherwise, to each his/her own.


~lucky (not wearing green...pinch me please )

 

[Pure]

A Flame Mastered
by Crimson Maiden
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=115838

Crimson has kindly given permission for reproduction so that persons to look at and comment on the following story. See the url, for the complete story.

Responses are asked for regarding: One issue is the imagining of a sexual leaning, esp. SM related. How it's conceived and written. Another is the convincingness and plausibility of the mental and emotional processes; desire, thought, feeling and so on.

There are many issues regarding fantasy, such as where does this fit on the pure-fantasy-porn, realistic-sex-encounter continuum. GIVEN the author's choice, how well is it done. How erotic/fascinating/arousing is the result? How well does it succeed in literary terms?

Note: No one need like any given story, but comments should be polite and relevant to its characteristics, and (possibly) even helpful to the author.


Summary of the first parts of the story.

{{Aria, an attractive, but somewhat reticent young woman, dresses for a masked ball she saw advertised on the 'net. She hopes to meet a 'master' and find her destiny. A man in black catches her attention, and after meeting, he asks her to go to his house to satisfy her deepest desires. He says he won't harm her and gives her a safe word.

She's taken there, blindfolded. She is told to follow commands and she gives oral sex, gets her butt whipped; she responds. He performs oral sex on her, and drives her crazy, then they fuck and she's ordered not to come. This is saved till he fucks her ass, which she finds a great turn on. He then lets her go home. He indicates that they will meet again.}}

{{The next day at work, a woman comes on to her, in the restroom. They have a very hot encounter.}}

[start excerpt, about the last 1/6 of the original]

She arrived home and decided to take a nice hot bath. As she was relaxing in the warm water, her mind drifted back to her encounter with the man in black the previous night. She thought about how his hands and mouth felt on her body. She began to stroke her clit as she thought about how his cock felt deep inside her pussy and ass. His note said that she would see him soon. She hoped so because her body was on fire with need. She continued to stroke her clit, her hips rising off the tub seeking release. Abruptly, her pleasure was interrupted by the ringing of the phone.

“Hello sexy,” said a deep voice that she was sure belonged to the man in black. “Did you enjoy your time in the bathroom with Danielle?”

“Who are you? How do you know so much about me? How did you know I would be in the bathroom?”

“I know you very well, Aria. I think it’s time for you to know who I am. Go for a walk at 8pm tonight in the park next to your house. I will find you.”

The line disconnected and Aria sat there in wonder. She was excited at the prospect of finding out the identity of the man in black was but also frightened. She got out of the tub and went to her room to get dressed. Not knowing what the night had in store for her, she decided to wear a sexy slip dress with nothing underneath. After getting dressed, Aria paced about the house, willing 8pm to come quickly.

As the time to go finally arrived, Aria hurried out the door and down the dark street to the deserted park. She slowly walked down the path, moving further into the darkness with every step. Before she knew what was happening, strong hands grabbed her and pulled her into the darkness of the trees surrounding the path.

Aria screamed as she was pushed against the tree that she was facing.

“Be quiet, slave!” commanded the sexy voice of the man in black.

Hands caressed her trembling body, down her torso and then back up again, coming to rest on her breasts. The silky softness rubbed against her breasts as his unyielding hands kneaded her heaving bosom.

“I love the firmness of your tits. They are so big and luscious.”

He tugged the top of her dress down and squeezed her breasts between his fingers. Her nipples were taken between his fingertips and he rolled them, and then pulled them.

Aria was rubbing her ass against him as he caressed her. She moaned in ecstasy as he pinched and pulled on her nipples. Grabbing her wrists, he yanked her arms up above her and using his belt, he strapped her arms to the tree.

“I like having you helpless in a public place.”

He kissed the back of her neck and she shivered in anticipation. While one hand moved back to her breasts, the other hand traveled down her quivering body, then moving under her dress, moved up to her pussy.

“You naughty girl, look how wet you are. Your juices are running down your legs and you don’t have on any panties to catch that sweet juice.”

As he ran his fingers along her slit, Aria pressed into his hand trying to get relief from the fire that was burning within her. He pushes inside her, first one finger, and then another. He slowly started to fuck her with his fingers.

“More, more!” Aria cried as she bucked against his fingers.

A stinging slap rained down on her ass and Aria yelped in shock.

“You do not speak unless I have given you permission!” commanded the man in black.

He then slid another finger into her wet pussy and continued to fuck her, alternating between slow and fast. Her hips bucked against his fingers, seeking the release he continued to deny her.

Aria thought she would go mad with need if he didn’t let her cum soon. Her pussy felt like it was on fire, engorged with the pleasure that was building within her.

“You like that, don’t you? You like feeling my fingers inside you, fucking you.”

“Yes… please…”Aria panted, begging for release.

“You like this so much, I bet you’d like something bigger even better. You want my cock in your pussy? You want me to fuck you with my cock??”

“Oh yes, yes please fuck me. Fuck me with your big cock. FUCK ME!!”

Aria felt the head of his cock rubbing against her slit and she pushed back against it trying to pull it inside of her. With sudden ferocity, his massive cock rammed into Aria’s pussy. She screamed aloud from the feeling of being filled so forcefully. As he aggressively pounded his cock into her pussy, Aria bucked wildly against him.

Aria could feel nothing but the burning in her pussy. The fire that raged inside her was all consuming and she frantically ground her ass against the man in black trying desperately to find her release.

“Cum for me slave!” commanded the man in black.

One hand slid around Aria’s hip and moved between her legs. He began to stroke her clit, then rolled it and pulled it between his fingers. Aria lost all control and screamed out as her orgasm overtook her. With a guttural cry, the man in black spurted his cum inside her.

Aria was so overcome that she was dangling by her arms, her legs would no longer hold her weight. Both of their juices ran down her legs in rivulets.

“You are so beautiful and so sexy, Aria. You are mine now. You are my slave and I am your Master. This is your destiny. Are you going to submit?”

Aria looked up and saw the face of Alex, who worked on a different floor in her building. She was amazed that Alex was the man in black. “Yes Master, I submit. I am yours to command.” [story ends shortly thereafter]

 

[Etoile]

Responses are asked for regarding: One issue is the imagining of a sexual leaning, esp. SM related. How it's conceived and written. Another is the convincingness and plausibility of the mental and emotional processes; desire, thought, feeling and so on.

There are many issues regarding fantasy, such as where does this fit on the pure-fantasy-porn, realistic-sex-encounter continuum. GIVEN the author's choice, how well is it done. How erotic/fascinating/arousing is the result? How well does it succeed in literary terms?

Note: No one need like any given story, but comments should be polite and relevant to its characteristics, and (possibly) even helpful to the author.

I liked it. A lot! Enough to bookmark it for future use, too. Very hot story.

One thing struck me early in the story, though, that bothered me. That's the issue of safety. Aria basically picked up a guy in a bar for a one-night stand, and I don't see that happening too often in BDSM circles, because it's not terribly safe. Sure, you can have kinky sex with a one-night stand, but the idea that you're going to become somebody's slave based on one sexual encounter strikes me as unrealistic. I feel it's unwise to do that kind of thing, because it can get you killed (at worst), and there's not a high likelihood that you'll actually have much in common with that person, and it takes more than sexual compatibility to have a good M/s relationship. We don't know if Aria knows Alex well, though she obviously knows his name and that he works on another floor in her building. If they're already friends, then the relationship seems fine to me, but if the M/s desires are the only thing they have in common, it may not work out.

Which is fine, because this is fantasy (from my perspective). So that answers one of Pure's questions: where does this fit on the fantasy vs. realistic continuum? I'd say the desires and feelings are realistic, but the way it's played out is more fantasy.

 

[Guest]

I liked it. A lot! Enough to bookmark it for future use, too. Very hot story.

Thanks Etoile. That story is actually the very first erotic story that I had ever written. I workshopped it in the SDC and then had an editor look it over, so it went through several revisions before arriving at the final draft. The workshop helped me with most of it. The only thing revised after the editor looked at it was the opening of the story.

Pure asked if I would answer the following questions:

How do you approach writing? I don't know exactly what you are asking here, but I'll give it my best shot. Writing is fun for me. It's an outlet for... well, a lot of things, and it gives me a chance to stretch my creativity. My writing pretty much all deals in fantasy. I am not one of those writers that write about personal experiences. My stories all come from my imagination. I might get the ideas from the story idea forum or from our challenge club, but the actual story comes from my head.

How do you go about imagining and detailing kinky scenes? Well, they usually just kind of come along as I am writing the story. I have been known to do some research (though I didn't really do alot for this particular story.) I just kind of decide what I want them to do and then I write it out. I will usually read over it to see if anything needs to be changed or added, and now that I have one, I send my stories (well, most of them) to my volunteer editor. Sometimes I do ok with the descriptions and other times I have to add stuff on suggestion of my editor.

Having said all of that, I am curious to know what any may think are my weaknesses or strong points in my writing (but please be gentle, lol.)

 

[Liar]

I can't remember the last time I was enticed to a location by mind reading aliens, and subjected to sexual abuse by said pseudopods, but I've written a damn novel about it!

Ah, they have ways to make you forget. (cue spooky music)

Ok, on a serious note. This thread is so zonked out that I can't even begin to untangle it. Where and how did what curl up on itself, implode and self ignite? I still don't understand what it was originally about. Can someone sum it up? In one para and not too many syllables per word. And no "thus" or "ergo", ok? I'm too wasted from reading through.

#L

 

[Pure]

Hi L,

The thread is about what it says in the initial posting, revised a bit, recently. It's about how well some authors, in short fiction, imagine, write about, and detail unusual sexual practices, esp. SM and related. We look particularly at situations portrayed which do not resemble those in the 'real life' of the author. It considers the role of fantasy, but looks for insights into thoughts, feelings and actions of those depicted, and writerly ways in which they are conveyed.

J.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I just read the start of this thread and then skipped down to the end. I don't really want to take the thread off topic, but it's an interesting question, dissecting an author's work without their permission.

Legally, I think it's true that you can say anything you want about a published work, and it happens all the time in book clubs and classrooms and here on the Story Feedback board, where people will post unsolicited reviews and their opnions of stories.

But on the other hand, it seems like simple discourtesy to pick out someone's story and start a critical discussion of it without first getting the author's permission. Most authors welcome constructive criticism, although there's often a tacit reluctance to have this criticism done in public without invitation, and having one's work held up for public comment does seem to involve a violation of a person's rights; maybe not so much as author, but as a human being.

In my opinion, it's much the same as the difference between having a few private, discrete words with a person as opposed to encouraging public discussion of their personality and character. It may not be illegal, but it certainly shows a lack of tact, and one that comes uncomfortably close to open rudeness.

---dr.M.

 

[Pure]

uncomfortably close to open rudeness.

At Literotica??? Surely you jest!

J.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

To get back on topic, I think it's kind of futile to compare any of the sexual acts we see in Lit stories to real life. By its very nature, most porn is pure fantasy, and while we expect the stories to be realistic, I would hope than no one expects them to be real. If we were to complain about all the ten-inch cocks capable of repeated orgasms and the 110-lb women with DDD tits, Lit would be out of business.

---dr.M.

 

[hauteur]

uncomfortably close to open rudeness.

At Literotica??? Surely you jest!

J.

Inconceivable

 

[Pure]

Hi Crimson,

Sorry about the delay in commenting.

I'll start at the beginning:


Aria crossed over to the bed, grabbed her bra, and put it on, encasing her ample breasts in snug black lace. She pulled the garter belt up to her hips and then sat down on the bed, slowly sliding silky stockings up her shapely legs. Standing up once again, she clipped each stocking to the garter belt.

Then, Aria walked over the soft carpet to her door where her costume for the ball was hanging on a hook. [...]Ribbons were attached to it[circlet] and danced within the auburn ringlets that cascaded down her back.

Aria had waited for this day for some time. Constantly searching for the event that would lead to her destiny, Aria had stumbled across the advertisement to the ball on an adult message board. This would be her chance to find the Master for whom she had been searching.

You are working to a fairly strict formula of 'meeting and cementing a bond with mr. right' and the writing is quite competent. As in regular porn, you chose to lay it out for the reader in the first paras as to what to expect. In fact, it's a hybrid of romance and ds erotica, with the romance element dominating. (A standard romance is a fantasy, so this is a remark about the prominence of one type of fantasy element in the story.)

It's the romantic longings that come across best in the early parts.
There's occasional poetic touches in non sexual matters, like the ribbons dancing in the hair.

The nice variant of the formula, is the scene with Danielle in the bathroom. That's fresh and shows a lot of creativity. It's quite hot imo.

In psychological terms, it's clear the story is meant as a 'coming out', and she comes out in spades. I'd have wished for a little prehistory, since those that come out often have early memories and experiences.

She could not believe what she had heard. How could this man know that her deepest darkest desire is to totally give up control and be thoroughly used for whatever a man might want from her?


This is laid out pretty clearly for the reader. I don't object, but wouldn't myself have put it so baldly.

I think the final scene, quoted in the thread has lots of juicy details, well written. It seems, in some ways to rely on the approach of standard porn, to flood the readern 'graphic detail.'

Yet the climax is *very romantic, imo:

a could feel nothing but the burning in her pussy. The fire that raged inside her was all consuming and she frantically ground her ass against the man in black trying desperately to find her release.

“Cum for me slave!” commanded the man in black.

One hand slid around Aria’s hip and moved between her legs. He began to stroke her clit, then rolled it and pulled it between his fingers. Aria lost all control and screamed out as her orgasm overtook her. With a guttural cry, the man in black spurted his cum inside her.

There's a nice female touch of clit manipulation, and you're working within a romantic pattern, the superhot lovemaking that binds two souls from the the first bang.

I'd say you succeeded in conveying the horny passion quite well. Perhaps enough for either gender. The underlying 'finding my true love' theme, is, imo, more female oriented. I wonder about your readers' responses by gender.

There may be more to say, but enough for now. Considering it's early you did a fine job of graphically displaying this submission in a way that's likely to involve the readers a great deal.

C ya.,

J.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Nice critique, Pure.

~lucky

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the critique Pure. I'm a romantic at heart and I think it tends to come through in some of my stories. As I think I said before, that was the first erotic story that I had ever written, so I put alot of effort into making it as good as it could possibly be.

As far as the differing feedback based on gender, I am not sure, but I can go back and look.

 

[Guest]

Ok, I went back and looked at the feedback.

The majority of the feedback from the males talked about how "hot" the story was.

Most of the feedback from the females talked about how wonderful of a story it was.

 

[Etoile]

Count me in as a female who found the story hot.