How others see us. Examples.

Pure

Fiel a Verdad
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Posts
15,135
NOTE ADDED 3-16

This thread has been moved here at the decision of Laurel. She did not tell me the reasons. The topic will be broadened to include a look at any fictional writings, by anyone, on SM and related, unusual practices and tastes. But, as before, there will be an emphasis on authors' attempts to imagine and portray practices in which they are not, or minimally, involved.

With the aim of falling quite clearly under 'fair use' provisions of the copyright act, I am deleting the posted excepts of first chapter of Perdita's story.



J.



How others see us. How well is the essence of SM captured? Example 1, Perdita.

This is a thread to study and critique a number of efforts by persons who've written bdsm (or related) stories, often as parts of survivor or other challenges to write in all or almost all literotica categories. The focus is on writers imagining and portraying practices they do not themselves engage in. By 'capture' of SM or other unusual practices, I don't mean realism, necessarily, for erotica is fantasy; I mean some kind of plausibility and fascination for the reader.

It almost goes without saying, but Lou reminds me to say that people don't fall into neat black-and-white categories, e.g., gay and straight. Humans, as Poe observed--and more particularly the really good writers--have in them the seeds of all kinds of good and evil impulses, straight ('vanilla') and deviant leanings. So the thread is NOT premised on black/white division: the idea of 'others' who experience nothing of unusual leanings, and 'us' or 'the xyz community' who all have a particular slant and experience.

It's an old problem of writers, Can research and imagination make up for relative inexperience, cultural or racial difference, and so on? Sometimes, there are notable successes. The author of "Story of O" was not a habitué of chateaux and violated object of a secret masters' society. Indeed, her imaginings became models for many experiments in 'real life' enactments of consensual sex slavery. Life imitating art, in the old saw.

Further I don't mean to suggest that 'success' is to be measured in terms of accurate depiction, but in conveying something plausible and meaningful to the reader. Rather, the successful story will show understanding of why the people act, think and feel in certain ways. I propose to look at some examples, including those by Debbie, Killer Muffin, Crimson Maiden, and Perdita, whose bdsm 'lite' (her term, I believe) is excerpted below.

Where it's obtainable, permission to reproduce will be sought as a routine courtesy.

{{ Added 3-16-2004: There are below, about 1852 words, excerpted from a chapter of 2433 words, about 76% of the chapter. There are about 13,505 words total in the six chapters; so the total reproduced here represents about 14%. One standard guideline I have heard, is one sixth; though the allowable amt also depends on other factors, such as commercial impact. Another standard guideline is one chapter of a larger work, and the present posting is in conformity with that concept.}}

[[Added 3-08-04: The following reproduction is intended, to the best of my understanding, to be in conformity with section 107 'fair use' section of 1976 US copyright law as explained at both US government

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

and the University of Texas websites

http://www.utsystem.edu/ogc/intellectualproperty/copypol2.htm ]]


Elevator Girl Ch. 01 Sex work for clients in a Tokyo department store.
by perdita ©

Minor revisions and embellishments. 6.7.03
http://www.literotica.com:81/stories/showstory.php?id=94629

[Beginning chapter: Introduction to the western young woman who's turned high class pro in present-day Japan. She came to Japan to teach ESL and ended up working for some well to do families. Through a kind of mentor, she has become an 'elevator girl' at a private use elevator in an expensive department store, said to be like Bloomingdales. As such she is to provided sexual services on the spot or elsewhere to any males who apparently are members of an exclusive club offering sexual acts of all kinds to the 'elite.']


===
{{ch 4 intro to DS; spanking}}
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=95738

====
{{ch 5, sadist client }}
Elevator Girl Ch. 05
by perdita ©
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=96818

[2 paras describe a videotaping system in the elevator, with films normally available to clients under certain conditions; the narrator's declined to be filmed.]

At the time of the elevator ride with this client I had begun wearing my new uniform, very different than the pink suit. I would describe the costume as severe-chic-dyke-librarian. It was something like the gray below knee-length suit Jimmy Stewart insists Kim Novak wear in Vertigo. I had the long legs to make it work but did not have to cut my hair for the role. I wore my curls combed and gelled straight into a perfect and conservative French-twist (think close-up of the ‘O’ and the swirl that turns into a spiral simulating falling in the film).

My makeup was something out of a 1950’s Vogue—stylized eyebrows, defined red lips, rouge, and a painted black mole above the left corner of my mouth. I wore no jewelry but for an antique silver and pearl brooch at the high neck of my white blouse. My shoes were black suede two-inch stocky heels with square toes worn with sheer hose. My underwear was also out of a fifties ad. The bra was heavy cream satin—rocket-cups with the circling detail radiating out from the pointy nipples. My panties matched but were more moderate French-cuts. A matching garter belt and short black felt gloves completed the outfit.

The client was an extraordinarily handsome young Japanese man, perhaps in his late twenties. He was my height, dressed like an elegant mortician—totally in black but for sheer purple socks. His hair was shoulder length, thick shiny black, very well cut; any woman would have envied it. He seemed extremely masculine, not a femme trace visible except in his lips—like Blondie’s or Clara Bow’s. I thought he might be wearing lip tint but his mouth was naturally a dark rose.

I had hardly risen from my seat as he swept into the car—no bow—and as I began he stopped me with a strong hold on one shoulder. He pointed to the door and I closed it. The music was Ravel’s Bolero.

He took me in his arms with great strength and kissed me hard and passionately, as if he knew me, as if I meant something to him. I did not have to act to return his kiss. It was an immediately arousing experience which I reciprocated with a fierce enthusiasm. He didn’t fuck or rape my mouth, merely explored it expertly and with a sensuality new to my role in this job. I became excited enough to make my own advances and ran my fingers through his lovely hair, another new sensual experience for me. My lipstick was smeared on his mouth and I didn’t care what mine looked like.

He gave continuous little moans and utterances of pleasure. I believed he was speaking to me and responded in turn. We seemed to be performing a duet in time with the hypnotic rhythm of the music, but he soon left my near breathless mouth to kiss and make little sucking noises all about my face. He kissed my eyelids as if he were kissing my cunt; they fluttered and I felt as if I were going to faint.

Then he stepped away and looked at me with hunger, a palpable lust in his eyes and pursed mouth. I knew he wanted me to undress so I did, but began as if nervous though I was merely overwrought with my own lust. I fumbled with the jacket buttons and laughed nervously so he helped me. As soon as my jacket was off he quickly pinched my nipples hard through my blouse and bra. I jumped a bit at the instant pleasure and he laughed deeply as if he understood how I felt. I laughed too while he continued to fully cup my breasts and rub my nipples in the center of his palm. I thought I would have an orgasm in a minute, moaning low and loud, utterly unashamed of my state and expressions. I could hardly believe he’d aroused me that way through my clothes.

He stepped away again and I removed my blouse and skirt. This time he lifted me onto my stool, briefly pinched and pulled my nipples through the satin then inserted a finger inside each cup and rubbed the tips of my hard tingling nubs. All the while I was actually panting and making sounds to fit the constant crescendos of Ravel. I was near to climaxing again but I knew now he was reading me well as he left my breasts just as my gasps were coming closer in time.

He moved away, again, and lifted a leg out straight, rubbed his free hand up and down its length, all round the limb as if he were polishing it. He used his fingertips too and made me shiver; then he placed my leg to let it rest around his waist. He was now standing with one hip at my crotch while he polished my other leg. I was free to play with his hair again and gave him lip prints on the nearest cheek. When he let my leg go he lifted me off the stool and pulled my panties down to my ankles. I stepped out of them while he undid my bra. I became more excited thinking an orgasm was that much nearer.

He led me to the center and tied me spread-eagled on the floor then stood between my legs and undressed himself slowly. I took in every new bared part of him. His body was beautifully formed, not muscular but toned and subtly sculptured. He kept looking at me with that hunger, more ravenous now. I had a quick fantasy of how he would take me.

His penis finally appeared—a large western size—erect and vibrant in its visible throbbing. He placed himself over me as if we were going to fuck me; his cock dangling and bobbing so it tickled my cunt lips and clit while he began an aggressive sucking of my nipples. He alternately covered each one with a wide open mouth and used his tongue to stroke and flick them, fast then slow—faster, slower, faster. As I would become increasingly aroused he’d take his mouth away long enough for me to calm down then start again on the other. I was dying to ask him to let me come but I dared not. I did, however, use all the expression in my eyes knowing I was begging silently.

He grinned wickedly and turned his mouth into a smirk. That’s when I knew. He was a teaser. I became angry at Mrs. Miyake. She should have warned me, but I realized she was probably under orders not to let me know so as to more fully satisfy his pleasure.


I obviously changed expressions too quickly. Though I was intent now on faking my pleasure I saw that he knew. He began again on my nipples and I was powerless to not respond. I thought perhaps I could keep the arousal going despite his maneuvers. I wished—almost prayed—I could flex my cunt enough to relieve myself, but he wouldn’t allow it. He was always one step ahead of me.

As I came close he slapped my face violently so that I screamed, then he grabbed a scarf off the barre and stuffed it painfully into my mouth. He began to look like a monster to me with the smeared lipstick on his now ugly face contorted with his singular sadistic lust. I closed my eyes to not see him but he slapped me again and I knew I had to watch him.

My cheeks burned with the stinging while he rubbed the palms of his hands on my aching nipples. I began to moan without control; then began crying at my profound frustration. Suddenly he slapped my breasts hard, spanked them really so that it only hurt. There was no intercourse of the pain and pleasure I enjoyed with Rodney. I cried and thought of my lover, wished he could see me and rescue me. He would never do this to me, never humiliate or torture me. He never teased me. No one in my life ever teased me, of if they tried soon gave up and apologized or laughed at their attempt.

I felt abandoned, truly abandoned. I was tied up and suffering in this little garish prison with a psychological sadist who forced me to witness his pleasure in hurting and humiliating me. Too soon, I was taken out of anger and sorrow with the realization that he was kissing my cunt. I tried to scream through the silk stuffed in my mouth but soon transferred my emotional upheaval to the unstoppable heat in my clitoris.

He ate me like a pussy connoisseur. His tongue worked like a fine instrument and suddenly I realized Bolero was nearing its finish. I made an odd muffled noise as I tried to exclaim, “Diabolical, fucking diabolical shit!”

I tried to keep my aching clit in check but his tongue and lips kept ahead of me. I cried and screamed beneath the wet taste of the silk and knew he was going to take me to the very edge of a monumental precipice. I felt the orgasm—I cannot call it mine—near its peak, wanted painfully to slip off the edge, felt the very angle of it, screamed in my throat as if it had the power to release me. I began laughing hysterically, panting, laughing, trying to let go. Then I felt it, knew I was going to come.

He stopped at that very instant and pinched an inner thigh as if his fingers were lobster claws. I felt like an abused mermaid on a deserted beach. I screamed and screamed in my head, rolling it from side to side. It felt a timeless hell.

When I opened my eyes he was dressing himself with no awareness of me, none whatsoever. I felt insanely alone, utterly alienated from life. There seemed to be no life in the car—my prison box—not even mine. I felt dazed, sick to my stomach, my eyes couldn’t focus. In the fog of my vision I saw his black figure near. My anger returned as he came into focus. I glared at him without fear as I knew his time was up and he had to leave.

He tore the scarf out of my mouth; finally I had nothing to say, no sound to let loose. I jumped as much as possible as he reached down and lapped up my cunt juice with a full heavy hand and smeared my mouth one last time. He spoke with a viciousness that frightened me more than anything I’d ever heard. I knew it was something vile about women and felt it in my cunt as if I’d been raped.

As he walked out of the elevator Umeko entered with her duffle-bag and a robe for me. She had such an expression of pity I began to weep as if truly grieving. It seemed fitting—I felt I had been murdered somehow. [end {excerpt} ch 5 ]

[in the five more paras, she's untied, paid double, returns home, and so on; click on the url above]
 
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excerpt:

As I came close he slapped my face violently so that I screamed, then he grabbed a scarf off the barre and stuffed it painfully into my mouth. He began to look like a monster to me with the smeared lipstick on his now ugly face contorted with his singular sadistic lust. I closed my eyes to not see him but he slapped me again and I knew I had to watch him.

perdita elevator girl, ch 5.

There are some nice touches, here, where the girl is forced to keep her eyes open. Comments?

J.
 
Pure said:
excerpt:

As I came close he slapped my face violently so that I screamed, then he grabbed a scarf off the barre and stuffed it painfully into my mouth. He began to look like a monster to me with the smeared lipstick on his now ugly face contorted with his singular sadistic lust. I closed my eyes to not see him but he slapped me again and I knew I had to watch him.

perdita elevator girl, ch 5.

There are some nice touches, here, where the girl is forced to keep her eyes open. Comments?

J.
 
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Hi KC,

you said, Sounds like a skilled lover with a twist...not a sadist

It's interesting the lovemaking skill is highlighted just before that passage:

Too soon, I was taken out of anger and sorrow with the realization that he was kissing my cunt. I tried to scream through the silk stuffed in my mouth but soon transferred my emotional upheaval to the unstoppable heat in my clitoris.

He ate me like a pussy connoisseur. His tongue worked like a fine instrument and suddenly I realized Bolero was nearing its finish. I made an odd muffled noise as I tried to exclaim, “Diabolical, fucking diabolical shit!”


The dangerous man with superior lovemaking skill and equipment-- a kind of well hung Heathcliffe--is a common figure in romance writing. The fellow comes on strong, 'overwhelming all resistance'. But works so skillfully that protests turn to moans of pleasure.
 
Pure said:
Hi KC,

you said, Sounds like a skilled lover with a twist...not a sadist

It's interesting the lovemaking skill is highlighted just before that passage:

Too soon, I was taken out of anger and sorrow with the realization that he was kissing my cunt. I tried to scream through the silk stuffed in my mouth but soon transferred my emotional upheaval to the unstoppable heat in my clitoris.

He ate me like a pussy connoisseur. His tongue worked like a fine instrument and suddenly I realized Bolero was nearing its finish. I made an odd muffled noise as I tried to exclaim, “Diabolical, fucking diabolical shit!”


The dangerous man with superior lovemaking skill and equipment-- a kind of well hung Heathcliffe--is a common figure in romance writing. The fellow comes on strong, 'overwhelming all resistance'. But works so skillfully that protests turn to moans of pleasure.
 
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Hello people. Pure sent me a PM to say that a story of mine had been excerpted and posted for discussion on this forum. Turns out p. is the one who did this. I wrote back,

“I ask that you delete your post, my excerpts at least. You should have asked my permission, which I would not have given. Persons choose whether or not to have their work critiqued, that's what the story discussion board is for. Let me know if you will comply with my request. If you do not I will protest to Laurel.”

So I wrote to Laurel. I do not know how long it may take her to respond, and have decided I should speak up for myself, especially as the discussion (betw. p. and one other person) is already becoming meaningless.

I say that because it seems Kajira has only read an excerpt (not her fault). If she had read the full story she would see that the ‘sadist’ is a client and that the ‘girl’ is a sex-worker who tends to some bdsm clients but is not a ‘real’ sub at all. p. says [end ch 5] at the end of his first post, but it is not the end of the story; the end explains the girl’s reactions.

Since p. mentioned it, I want to state also that I call my stories bdsm light so that real bdsm people aren’t disappointed; I do not want to mislead anyone re. the content.

Yes, this is a free and public site, and I am not at all averse to criticism of my work, but this backhandedness, ineptly so, disturbs me. I only wanted to make that public. I shall leave any of you and p. to it.

Thank you for listening, and for any regard I might receive.

Perdita
 
Pure said:
This is a thread to look at a number of efforts by outsiders who've written bdsm stories, often as parts of survivor or other challenges to write in all or almost all literotica categories. It's an old problem of writers, can research and imagination make up for relative inexperience, cultural or racial difference, etc? Sometimes, there are successes. I propose to look at some examples, including those by Math Girl, Killer Muffin, Svenskaflicka, Perdita, whose bdsm 'lite' (her term, I believe) is excerpted below. Comments?

First of all, I can't see how you're going to be able to discuss any of my works from a BDSM POV, since none of my stories belongs to the BDSM category. I've always avoided this category because it has no appeal to me.

Second, if you're going to discuss any of my stories, I'd appreciate it if you'd contact me first, to let me know this. Anything else makes me feel like you're talking about me behind my back.
 
Hi Svenska,

Of course we'd ask you; all those able to be civil will be contacted. Those of unending grudges will simply be notified. It's my view that publicly posted 'free' works, are fit topics of 'free speech' here at literotica, in that there is no commercial harm to the author or benefit to the discusser.

Far from being harm, it's more likely good publicity, and authors who listen are often able to benefit.

:rose:

Note: I assumed that in your 80 posted stories you'd given bdsm a go. (Thought you played 'survivor.' ) Why not give it a shot! Don't be scared. There are no sadists around. (We'll help publicize you!)

:devil:
 
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Kajira Callista said:
Sounds like a skilled lover with a twist...not a sadist :rolleyes:

Not that there's no grey area here but....yeah.

The "then he ate my pussy like a champ" is a dead giveaway to those in the know.

Funny, pure, I saw you referenceing perdita earlier. Still got the perdita demons plaguing you, eh?

You should invite her over here to defend her work.
 
rosco rathbone said:
Not that there's no grey area here but....yeah.

The "then he ate my pussy like a champ" is a dead giveaway to those in the know.

Funny, pure, I saw you referenceing perdita earlier. Still got the perdita demons plaguing you, eh?

You should invite her over here to defend her work.

OK thats what I get for not reading the whole thread

*slaps forehead*

perdita in the house, clear the decks. If the math girl and the chick with the fancy french name come in here, you'll find me in the fallout shelter.
 
Pure said:
Hi Svenska, Of course we'd ask you; all those able to be civil will be contacted. Those of unending grudges will simply be notified.
Who is we? This is your thread and your game, twat. I do not have a grudge against you, and I am more civil than you might ever work up to. Why would anyone, especially you, expect me to be civil with shit? Once I accused you of using logic immorally. I still do.

Yesterday I irked you on the AH and today you start this thread. I am not averse to any criticism, or even publiicity of my work. But please do not offer your services to this or any group on Lit. in the name of critical investigation. It is not coincidental that you chose my work for your thread's subject. For those who do not know, MathGirl and Svenska are my friends, and Impure knows that. As for KM I presume he is merely kissing ass again.

FYI, I've received a half dozen PMs already from BDSM folk who think at the very least you should have asked my permission to post my work in this manner. All but one of them said they are ignoring this thread because it's yours.

Perdita
 
rosco rathbone said:
You should invite her over here to defend her work.
Hey Roscoe, have you read that Shakespeare play yet? ;)

I do not need to defend my work (see the explanation of "lite" above), and I won't. I just wanted "his people" to know impure's true motivations.

Perdita
 
Perd,

Perd: You should have asked my permission, which I would not have given.

Somehow it didn't seem worth the wasted energy.

FYI, though you continue to flame me over the last year, you will not be flamed here or elsewhere. I think your work merits discussion in view of its being generally well executed.

:rose:

Perd: Who is we? This is your thread and your game, twat. I do not have a grudge against you, and I am more civil than you might ever work up to. Why would anyone, especially you, expect me to be civil with shit?

And you're sweet too, hon.

Note for your BDSM lite book: Yes, there are some into verbal humiliation. But usually they like a little imagination. The old 'poo poo head' insult you remember from second grade, just does not cut it
 
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perdita said:
Hey Roscoe, have you read that Shakespeare play yet? ;)

I do not need to defend my work (see the explanation of "lite" above), and I won't. I just wanted "his people" to know impure's true motivations.

Perdita


heh.

I got bogged down by drugs and alcohol. :D :cool: :rolleyes: :(

Good to have you over here though. "defend" was the first word that came to mind; but "discuss" works for me.
 
Note to all. This is a thread for discussion. If the folks who wanted me to ask permission, simply read perdida's posting above it will be obvious why I didn' bother, but simply notified her.

I have a message from Catalina regarding my query about possible breach of forum rules. Without quoting I can merely say she was not aware of a rule violation, and will leave it to Laurel. Of course she stressed that asking permission--even if not required-- is a sign of goodwill. I agree entirely. Were the situation not one of the author's unrelenting publicly posted animosity, I would certainly have done the courteous thing.

It's no doubt boring, but since perd posted her demand, I'm now posting the reply forwarded to Laurel.

Re: posting

Pure: Hi Perd,
I'm not sure if the 'choice' you speak of is a right at literotica, or a legal right. Excerpts are posted for comments, and admirers and critics alike, as well are serious authors, are free to come in.

While the story discussion circle has a standard procedure, in my view, most forums operate as 'free speech' areas and excerpts of works available on the net, and esp. at literotica are allowable as posted material for comment and discussion.

Of course I would normally asked a person, as a courtesy, but as you say, you would refuse, and never show any courtesy yourself.

I will of course abide by Laurel's ruling.

J.


Perd's demand for deletion:

“I ask that you delete your post, my excerpts at least. You should have asked my permission, which I would not have given. Persons choose whether or not to have their work critiqued, that's what the story discussion board is for. Let me know if you will comply with my request. If you do not I will protest to Laurel.”
{my bold, pure}
 
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The sex scene begins:

He took me in his arms with great strength and kissed me hard and passionately, as if he knew me, as if I meant something to him. I did not have to act to return his kiss. It was an immediately arousing experience which I reciprocated with a fierce enthusiasm. He didn’t fuck or rape my mouth, merely explored it expertly and with a sensuality new to my role in this job. I became excited enough to make my own advances and ran my fingers through his lovely hair, another new sensual experience for me. My lipstick was smeared on his mouth and I didn’t care what mine looked like.

He gave continuous little moans and utterances of pleasure. I believed he was speaking to me and responded in turn. We seemed to be performing a duet in time with the hypnotic rhythm of the music, but he soon left my near breathless mouth to kiss and make little sucking noises all about my face. He kissed my eyelids as if he were kissing my cunt; they fluttered and I felt as if I were going to faint.


OK, it's bdsm lite pornish erotica with a woman --golden blonde and amply titted-- who has become a prostitute.

A prostitute, real time, doesn't work well in bdsm porn unless it pretty degrading stuff, which this isn't.

So this is the central 'as if' of the story--central in male fantasy at least. The pro, glamorous and choosy, enjoys her work, and routinely gets worked up.

Here, in an instant, with a potentially dangerous client she's hot : It was an immediately arousing experience which I reciprocated with a fierce enthusiasm.

They become a 'duet' to the 'hypnotic rhythm of the musid. Bolero, a thread she cleverly weaves throughout chapter and into the end paras that were not posted.

One has to consider what's going on from a pornish erotica writer's standpoint. It's gotta be a hot fuck scene. This draws in readers of all inclinations. Especially, imo, it draw in readers who like the romanticized smut.

Look at the appearances. The man has been described earlier as 'extraordinarily handsome', 20s. Here his 'lovely hair' is mentioned. No funky clients, or tubby middleaged ones for porn's hookers.

The whole chapter has resonance with "Belle de Jour", the part where Deneuve meets the Japanese kinkster; seriously bent. He's a middle aged guy in a girdle. The golden haired 'Belle' is going to be degraded-- which is what she wants
(her SM leanings, beside the fascination with prostitution, are the premise of the movie.) Bunuel sets the stage brilliantly.

The present author, with the desire for romantic appeal, here has somewhat boxed herself in, with this beginning, since it's gentle, tender, and blondie's hot as a firecracker. It's a difficulty she deals with very competently in the balance of the chapter, where, of course the Sadeien (lite) wolf in sheeps clothing reveals himself. It's a familiar plot from romance novels, but let's see how she skilfully shapes it to her ends.

J.
 
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I got a message from Catalina too. I responded and rec'd another. But I won't use use her by making public inferences. Nor of others who appear to find you worse than tiresome and have their own fave names for you. "Flame"? I don't flame you. You're a twat is all.

I wonder if you have the intelligence to realize how apparent your hypocricy and genuine ignorence is, in this, your very own thread.

Stuff your roses.

Perdita

p.s. Laurel's ruling matters not now. I am glad I took the matter into my own hands. Do sod off now, cabron.
 
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I wonder if you have the intelligence to realize how apparent your hypocricy and genuine ignorence is, in this, your very own thread.

hey I'm gonna get that mounted and hang it on my wall.

Laurel's ruling matters not now

of course not, dear, since it getting clearer it likely won't be in your favor.

:rose:
 
Writers of literary erotica have no more insight into "us" than penners of polite Christie-like whodunnits have insight into the minds of murderers.

When I write literary erotica I want it to be literary, not an essay like portrayal of an SM scene.

That's normally kind of dull.

It's a hot story. It also has as much relationship to my SM life as a tomato, that coming from an admitted pro who is kinked so you'd think I'd see myself in it if anyone might.


I also understand why people might get a little titchy about having their smutty smut dug up for critique, volunteering it is different. It's not like we're the Times review of Books here.
 
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Netzach said:
Writers of literary erotica have no more insight into "us" than penners of polite Christie-like whodunnits have insight into the minds of murderers.

.

another stingingly accurate observation by the masta of disasta
 
My point remains that a murderer might not write the best whodunnit. Nor would a practitioner write the best SM erotica, in fact most of the worst is by practitioners.

Writing for the writers, thank God.
 
fair enough, but some of the best books are by say writer/detectives (Wambaugh?). Or Oliver Stone writer/neurologist.

but to get back to an earlier point, N. resemblance to your life.
Ok, it's not there.

how about strictly as wank material? if you like, think of it as 'romantic sm lite fantasy'

to take an example. story of O, or Juliette may be classed as fantasy. but they do move some people. is the department store job any less real that the Chateau that O goes to? (ie they're equally fantasy).

in one way it's obvious. does the Japanese version of bloomingdales have secret elevators with hot 'girls' ready to serve-- and get really hot-- over an elite group or secret men's club.

isn't it simplest just to say. suspend disbelief. there IS the secret elevator system, the golden blondes, and secret (handsome, rich, fit, young adult) men's club. let's imagine, from the woman's pov, what that might be like.
 
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