How obscure is too obscure?

[BlackShanglan]

This , for instance?

How far can one go in pushing the reader to try something outside of the mainstream of the modern world? I worry sometimes about using historical or literary references, as they do ask a certain buy-in from the reader. On the other hand, I worked hard with this one to try to make it easily readable and comprehensible to people unfamiliar with the title character. And for some reason it's so often odd times or places or people that stir my imagination.

I'd like to know the general reaction out there to a piece like that linked above, or others like it. Disgust and dismissal? Apprehension? Curiosity? Annoyance?

(I think that this is the first time I have ever attempted a poll. Do forgive me if it's poorly done.)

Shanglan

 

[TheEarl]

I'd say you can be obscure as long as you try and make it accessible on some level to everyone else. The people who get the reference will get it on every level and those who don't will have just one level.

Does that make sense? Where's Weird Harold to come and tell me what I mean?

Now ogres, you see, have layers.

The Earl

 

[impressive]

I thoroughly enjoyed the piece -- and I've next to no familiarity with Pope (yet) or other literature from that period.

There is, I believe, a gulf between assuming ignorance and doubting capacity to appreciate of one's readership. IOW, just because a reader is ignorant of the period/person, does not mean the work cannot be appreciated.

Truly talented authors can embrace the readers without making them feel stupid. You did a phenomenal job.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I make a lot of obscure historical references, sometimes not even realizing how obscure they are. I think it really depends on mood and context of the story.

If you write well and your stories are generally more "high-brow" for lack of a better word, then your readership will most likely be more euridite and the references will not be so obscure.If you are more like boxlicker, who prides himself on writing, just porn, your audience would probably find the references an annoyance rather than helpful.

I like Lovercraft. I have a friend who devours horror novels. One evening I lent her The Tomb and other stories and I was shocked when she told me she hated it. Curious as to why I asked and she opened a story, selected a passage and said it was full of stuff like this. This was a passage with some typical Lovecraft reference to Cyclopean arcitecture. The point was, she wasn;t able to deciper more than one word in ten. For me Lovecraft is not a difficult read, for her it required a companion dictionary.

How obscure you canmake your references is really a function of the readership you have built. In your case, I suspect you can get away with a lot more of it in story building than many, beacuse you write on a more thoughtful and though provoking level than many of us.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Impressive, I think I'm in love with you. It's only fair to warn you

Ego strokes aside, you make a good point and touch upon the real crux of my confusion. I do want to trust the reader and assume that s/he can enjoy it. Just, sometimes I'm not sure when I am crossing the line to being pointlessly obscure, and I have had one or two painful comments about acting "superior" or trying to make people feel bad. Those are particularly unhappy moments for me as I was really doing just the opposite - assuming that the audience was clever and lively and either knew what I was talking about or would work it out through context, or would simply not care about the fine points.

It's a relief to know that you found this one accessible. Cheers - it's a load off my mind.

Shanglan

 

[BlackShanglan]

Colly, you make me want to read Lovecraft. I will have to give him a try. And good points on one's readership as well. Every time I think I've managed a mature and sensible approach to writing, I fall back into the pit of "but I want everyone to love meeeee!"

As for your kind words on my writing - are you sure you don't just find me plain old provoking?

And now, the real question. There are four seperate people on this thread. There are five votes. How does that work out?

Shanglan

 

[impressive]

Impressive, I think I'm in love with you. It's only fair to warn you

Ego strokes aside, you make a good point and touch upon the real crux of my confusion. I do want to trust the reader and assume that s/he can enjoy it. Just, sometimes I'm not sure when I am crossing the line to being pointlessly obscure, and I have had one or two painful comments about acting "superior" or trying to make people feel bad. Those are particularly unhappy moments for me as I was really doing just the opposite - assuming that the audience was clever and lively and either knew what I was talking about or would work it out through context, or would simply not care about the fine points.

It's a relief to know that you found this one accessible. Cheers - it's a load off my mind.

Shanglan

I'm no literary slouch, but I can indeed be made to feel small and insignificant amongst those who seem to believe that the lack of certain knowledge makes one a lesser being. Intellectual snobbery, so to speak, is as belittling as any other type.

I think you've balanced it all beautifully. The piece is not intimidating to those lacking the knowledge. In fact, it will probably inspire quite a few to seek more information.

I have never attempted to write a story set in the distant past and I envy those who can do so with such seeming ease.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly, you make me want to read Lovecraft. I will have to give him a try. And good points on one's readership as well. Every time I think I've managed a mature and sensible approach to writing, I fall back into the pit of "but I want everyone to love meeeee!"

As for your kind words on my writing - are you sure you don't just find me plain old provoking?

And now, the real question. There are four seperate people on this thread. There are five votes. How does that work out?

Shanglan

Lovecraft is some very fine reading IMHO. His prose is a little stiff, but it's balanced by the suspense he builds.

You can't please everyone. Efforts to broaden your appeal are always risky undertakings as you stand to alienate those who read you regularly by not delivering on the promise of your earlier works, those they very much enjoyed.

I think we all woud like to complete that one story, the one that everyone adores, but few authors come close and none succeed. Yet it is the drive to do so that keeps many of us writing. In the hopes we can find the philosopher's stone of words. Perhaps one day one of us shall.

I don't think you can go wrong, reaching for the stars. Even if you fail, you might catch some stardust with one and I think that is the sweetest victory I can aspire to.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I have never attempted to write a story set in the distant past and I envy those who can do so with such seeming ease.

Let's trade then I can't write real life, present day situations for toffee. Everything I have posted on Lit, and damned near everything I have ever written is either in the past or the future, or in some non-existant world. I seem to have a problem with reality.

Shanglan

 

[impressive]

I seem to have a problem with reality.

Shanglan

Spend about 10 years writing nothing but editorials. It tends to focus one on the present.

 

[Guest]

Shang, I don't worry about references, even in my pieces for Lit. I don't go out of my way to cite stuff I know or like, it just comes to me as I write, usually pertinent to the story, character, voice, etc. I am conscious of readers who may be unfamiliar with a reference but try to make the context give the core meaning.

A good percentage of my feedback is from those who know the references and appreciate them. I've yet to have any feedback say I was obfuscating or frustrating.

Your work poses no hurdles for me, even if I do not 'get' a particular reference. You write well enough to draw a reader in without defense or inhibition.

Perdita

 

[Kassiana]

I don't mind references, even if I don't get them (which happens a lot, as I'm out of the pop culture mainstream). What irritates me is the odd author or two I've found who has to flag EVERY reference they make to anything outside. Movie quotes. Book allusions. All footnoted to say "Phantom of the Opera reference LOL." Grr.

As long as you don't do that, you're fine. IMO as always, you understand.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Spend about 10 years writing nothing but editorials. It tends to focus one on the present.

Erm. Will you mind if I don't?

Kassiana, that does sound dire. I was once tempted to footnotes (on a work not published here), tried them for about a page, then thankfully thought "Dear GOD what I am doing?!" and deleted them. Narrow escape.

Shanglan

 

[Kassiana]

Kassiana, that does sound dire. I was once tempted to footnotes (on a work not published here), tried them for about a page, then thankfully thought "Dear GOD what I am doing?!" and deleted them. Narrow escape.

Oh, my, yes. I don't know that I've ever used footnotes for fiction. If I were writing non-fiction, I might, especially scholarly non-fiction, but I don't see the need in fictional works. Endnotes might be appropriate if you're taking from mythology to establish your story, for example, but footnotes? Ye Gods.

 

[gauchecritic]

I don't think it's a case of pushing your readers Shang (that sounds like a sound effect for a bright sword being pulled from a shiny scabbard: Shhaannggggggg)

It's having to do with being of interest.

As I read I was put in two minds, reminded about two separate things which I've 1) raved about and 2) ranted about, on these very boards.

Rant first. Not so long after I first started posting on threads I'd made it my business almost, to be controversial, constructive and contrary (contrary being a Yorkshire trait I'm told) all in an effort to be seen and noted. (Nearly slipped into an answer to another thread there)
As I recall, my first attempt at notoriety and contrariness was to be probably appalling by going directly against the common grain in various threads about the literary 'value' of stroke. To harangueing established thread posters about their, my perceived, haughtiness with regard to 'good writing'. I went to great pains to point out that a well told story, however poorly written, had as much merit, in my estimation as any Strunk and White/Chicago Manual stunted offering, and was often a 'better read'.
How does this apply to your piece?
I was reminded of the difficulty obtaining when I read quite a powerful incest story (of which I still can't remember the title or author) written with poor structure, bad spelling and lacking any number of simple English skills (I don't think it was a second language effort) But I read the story from beginning to end, captivated by its very awkwardness and on finishing, glad that I had read it.
I think the concentration required, as when reading sign-language or watching a subtitled foreign film, somehow enhanced my participation.

Second the rave. Quite the best story I have ever read on Lit. (causing me to send quite a few PMs and mails in admiration, start threads and rave to all and sundry about) was one which I read the first part of and found interesting but not my taste (fanfic/gay male) so I skipped to the end to see what happened, which made me then go back to the beginning and read every single word.


Both these things apply to 'The Private Diary...'

An unfamiliar and sometimes awkward presentation (not in a use of English way) and a need to read every word because it promised so much from reading the beginning and end.

You may lose some loyal readers but you would gain as many newbies. (This is Literotica remember)

 

[carsonshepherd]

You know how lazy I am. I'm not likely to Google anything - I'll just ask you, Shang

That said, you kow full well I don't have more than a passing knowledge of Alexander Pope. That didn't prevent me from reading the story, learning about him in fascination, and enjoying the hell out of it!

And may I congratulate you for a sublte plug of your story

Edit: I do like it when you pull out your shiny sword.

 

[minsue]

I haven't read the story yet, Shanglan, but I've bookmarked it. As a whole, I love it when something I'm reading sends me scurrying to google to learn more. Even better if it also sends me off to find the dictionary!

Oh, and on that topic - I never did thank you for reacquainting me with Cuchulain.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I don't think it's a case of pushing your readers Shang (that sounds like a sound effect for a bright sword being pulled from a shiny scabbard: Shhaannggggggg)

I quite like that, Gauche. Cheers

An unfamiliar and sometimes awkward presentation (not in a use of English way) and a need to read every word because it promised so much from reading the beginning and end.

*deep breath*

All right. Might I ask you to spell out the elements of awkwardness in presentation, which seem to be other than the nature of the subject? Feel free to PM if you like, but I would greatly like to know - even if you've only got time for a few words. I'm serious about improving my writing, and it would be very useful for me to know.

Originally posted by carsonshepherd
And may I congratulate you for a sublte plug of your story

We all know that "subtlety" is my middle name. Alas, "Lack of" is my first. Thank you for playing anyway. It's true, I would like the story read - but I also do find myself wondering increasingly if I am giving myself too much free rein (hah) and ignoring the barriers I am erecting before the reader. You know which one I mean, too.

Originally posted by minsue
Oh, and on that topic - I never did thank you for reacquainting me with Cuchulain.

Delighted to be of service. How I love that man And you, darling gosling, would appear to be my ideal audience. I think I shall just write for you. *nuzzle*

Shanglan

 

[carsonshepherd]

but I also do find myself wondering increasingly if I am giving myself too much free rein (hah) and ignoring the barriers I am erecting before the reader. You know which one I mean, too.

Uh, I do?

Sometimes you're just a little too subtle for me. If "Lack of" was my first name, my middle name would be "perception."

 

[minsue]

And you, darling gosling, would appear to be my ideal audience. I think I shall just write for you. *nuzzle*

Shanglan

You've stumbled onto my master plan. Soon I shall have a stable of writers writing solely for me. (Hey, if you can give yourself free rein I can have a stable of writers. Stop that groaning! )

 

[BlackShanglan]

Uh, I do?

Sometimes you're just a little too subtle for me. If "Lack of" was my first name, my middle name would be "perception."

I would never question the penetration of your wit, dear one.

I was referring to the unposted draft with my namesake.

Shanglan

 

[BlackShanglan]

You've stumbled onto my master plan. Soon I shall have a stable of writers writing solely for me. (Hey, if you can give yourself free rein I can have a stable of writers. Stop that groaning! )

How do you know it wasn't good groaning? Nothing so sensually erotic as a gosling of wit and pundom.

Shanglan

 

[carsonshepherd]

You've stumbled onto my master plan. Soon I shall have a stable of writers writing solely for me.

If you're willing to pimp me out, I'll be glad to give you a portion of my earnings.

(Bursts into laughter)

 

[BlackShanglan]

If you're willing to pimp me out, I'll be glad to give you a portion of my earnings.

(Bursts into laughter)

Happy to oblige, but won't that cut into your time for writing?

Shanglan

 

[carsonshepherd]

Happy to oblige, but won't that cut into your time for writing?

Shanglan

Writing....?

Oh yeah, I forgot. I used to do that sometimes.