How much is TOO much?

[Cockatoo]

Hey there, everybody, I'm having some trouble with a story and I thought I'd throw it open to the room. Some friends are already helping out with it, but I could use all the perspectives I can get. "Cold Hands" is a demonic possession story for the "NonHuman" category. The spooky stuff I'm okay with, but I AM concerned about the
level of violence and abuse that I think just kinda HAS to be in there.

I don't see any way around putting the poor girl through hell. You just can't unleash an Incubus in a dramatic plotline and expect it to be gentle and play nice. Somebody's got to get hurt, because part of the erotic tension of the story is the Dark Danger. If you render the antagonist harmless, all that perfectly good drama and suspense goes right down the drain.

What I've got in there so far is no worse than Stephen King would produce when he's in a good mood... actually, it's probably not even as bad as all that, but then again, nobody ever picked up "Salem's Lot" to masturbate with. I don't want to surprise my readers with literal, graphic, and just plain SICK abuse. That kind of shit really happens out there in the world. We all know of somebody who's been hurt or even killed by sexual predators, we may even know them and love them personally, and some of us ARE survivors of such ordeals. Those are images I DO NOT want to bring up in my work.

So... where would y'all draw the lines? I couldn't bring myself to let the girl get killed, or even let any bones get broken, so I had go get her rescued. But, the Incubus DOES beat her up, and break her will, and drive her out of her mind. That's the sort of thing demons do. At what point would you guys say "okay, this isn't turning me on anymore, this is just upsetting me."???

Laurel, I'd especially like to hear from you about what you consider suitable and what you don't. Odds are that I'm more squeamish than you, but still...

 

[cymbidia]

Having already read a draft of this story, i'd like to add that the thing is well-written and tightly plotted. The eroticism creeps into the story slowly and is a *very* integral part of all that happens from about mid-point on.

Not every story has to make every reader need to drop thier hands into thier pant/ies right then and there, does it? Isn't there a place for well-written erotica that arouses the senses without promoting an accompanying wild orgasm at every read-through by every reader? More importantly, isn't Lit exactly the right pace for something new, something different, something a little more "out there"?

I like this story. I think it would be Lit's loss if Cockatoo didn't finish it.

 

[Ulyssa]

So... where would y'all draw the lines? I couldn't bring myself to let the girl get killed, or even let any bones get broken, so I had go get her rescued. But, the Incubus DOES beat her up, and break her will, and drive her out of her mind. That's the sort of thing demons do. At what point would you guys say "okay, this isn't turning me on anymore, this is just upsetting me."???

"Upsetting" is legitimate. "Upsetting" means that you're growing as a writer and that you need to push the boundries. "Upsetting" means that you're not comfortable with allowing the rest of us to watch you grow because you're afraid you'll lose our support.

Well fuck us! And I don't mean that in the classic literotic smile and wink way, I mean it in the stand on your own two feet and stop whining about hurting feelings before you know if they're even hurt.

There are two things at work here---(1) some of us spend far too much time worrying about other people instead of getting the job done, and (2) some of us actually believe that other people give a good god damn about anybody else's work besides their own.

Your work is growing up. It's time you follow it.

 

[Laurel]

In my limited experience, it depends on how the character is portrayed. I've noticed that if the 'victim' is treated with sympathy, readers tend to be less shocked and upset. However, if the story reads like "then the little bitch was split from head to toe", I (as does the author, I'm sure) get lots of hate mail. A little scariness is fun, but if it comes across as exploitative - if the writer seems to delight in the girl's suffering and fear - many reades (particularly women) will be turned off. You may consider putting a one-line warning at the top of the story to let readers know that it contains violence.

 

[Sateema Lunasi]

I am working on a rather violent and manipulative story as well and I was wondering the same thing.

I look forward to reading Cockatoo's story.

 

[p_p_man]

It's a question you shouldn't really be asking.

If the story calls for extreme violence because you the author have led it down that path then extreme violence it must have.

If the story is written for a certain market (and consider Literotica as a market in this case) then only you would know how far that market will go - after all you're submitting to it.

If you're testing the water by asking the question in the first place to see what reaction you receive then you have two options:

Submit and see what happens or
Scrap it and start again.

But to me to ask an audience what they prefer before presenting them with the act smacks of pandering to popularism.

If you're happy with it - submit it.

And trust me when I say if Cymbidia thinks it's worth submitting it is! I look forward to reading it.

 

[Cockatoo]

I love you guys!

Okay, that's a green light! Heck, based on what you guys have said, as well as the feedback I've gotten from two of the four readers that I've sent the first draft to (thanks Cym!), I may even step it up a notch.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm out of my element when it comes to violence and non-consent, but one of the reasons I took on this assignment was to broaden my horizons. Laurel, what are the odds of making the "Survivor" contest an annual thing?

For reasons unrelated to this thread, I've also got some serious restructuring of the plot to accomplish. We're talking major surgery here, folks, so it'll be at least another week or so.

In the meantime, if you've got anything else to add on the subject, let me know, it's still a work in progress!

 

[Cockatoo]

Finished!

Sorry for the delay, everyone, but I've just now submitted "Cold Hands" as an RTF file, and it should be posted in a few days, whenever Laurel gets around to it. I'll let those of you on my mailing list know when it's officially up and running, and I'll put the link here, too.

I'd like to thank four people for their help and support: Cymbidia, especially, for pointing out some truly awful gear-grinding in the first version of the plot, and for her useful feedback and service as a reader, as well as for being a hot babe. Weird Harold also deserves special thanks for his reading and feedback (you can thank him for 3/4ths of the sex at the end) despite his full desk as an editor, and also for his support for my last magnum opus, "4678." PlayfullKitten26 has been thoroughly wonderful to me, and I want to thank her for her attention, for talking to me over message-chat for hours on end, and for being so indescribably attractive on every level. Finally, I'd like to cite the contribution of my old college roommate who doesn't have an account here, but read the thing anyway despite his discomfort with peering into the erotic imagination of a guy he's known for fourteen years.

Now that you'll be able to read the story that raised the issue in my head, you can see for yourselves how I chose to walk this particular tightrope. Too much abuse? Not enough? Still somehow erotic? Let me know, I always like to hear back from readers.

 

[peterpan]

I disagree with p_p_man. Not his logic, just a different point of view.

Pandering to Polularisim is a valuable skill. I wish more people would pander to me. It is my own darn fault for having squewed tastes.

Testing the waters to decide if your tale will hurt people here is a considerate thing.

Seeking other peoples encouragement to submit a tale that is twinging you own personal morality could be a bad thing.

---
It could be good to add a paragraph explaining your reservations of the content because there is nothing more upsetting to me than a well-written and exciting tale that gradually goes beyond what I am willing to read.

I like the erotic tension of dark danger, I think, but don't want to enjoy a girls predicament knowing she could not in some sense be enjoying or needing it herself. This is a real tricky one. I wish there were a hundred talented authors out there pandering to me

I am attempting to do something like that with my Wild Dolls universe (nothing submitted so far although there are some teasers on my website)

 

[p_p_man]

Hi Peterpan

I've just read your post before rushing out to work so the following is what has immediately come to mind in answer to it.

If everyone asked their audience how far they should go in writing a story then we would be without the the benefit of the great authors whose works were villified in their day (James Joyce, Brendan Behan, Charles Dickens). The same goes, I suppose, for other art forms. Music (Tchaikowsky, Handel, Sibeleus), Art (Picasso, Rembrandt, Salvador Dali)and the great thinkers (Plato, Copernicus).

What I was trying to say is that if the author is pleased with the work he/she has produced so far then there is no point in asking others how far the story line should go in subsequent pages. The author has taken the story to this point and should not attempt to change horses in mid-stream because of popular opinion. If the author is having some doubts about the story over personal moral grounds then the the answer to the question can only lie within the author's own self. But to ask a potential audience what they would do is a bit like continuously tossing a coin until the result you want happens.

There are enough checks and balances around to make sure that anything truly offensive does not appear.

I suppose I subscribe to the "publish and be damned" school of thought.

Anyway must go or I'll miss my bus...

 

[peterpan]

Dickens and Copernicus at least are good arguments that sometimes something needs to be said.

If you believe you have something that must be said, there cannot be a universal rule to test this by. In the case of these two the 'universe' was wrong and it changed a little, I hope.

Mainly I am instructing all talented souls on how better to pander to me.. Just if they are interested

 

[Cockatoo]

It's UP

Okay, after all that hoohaa, here it is. Now everybody can finally have some idea of what we've been talking about:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=13023

I'm glad, peterpan and p_p_man, that this little thread has spawned such a spirited discussion. I wasn't trying to "pander," but I'm very well aware that I've been writing to a market here at Lit, and I considered this my way of doing "market research." I've long since resigned myself to the fact that I don't (and CAN'T) write to please everyone, so I don't even try. Grandma will never know, that's for damn sure.

I believe that writing (when it's done right) is real communication. When you get a sense of intimacy and knowing what the author was thinking and feeling when you read a story, that's a mark of success. When you get the sense that they're throwing it in your face and not caring whether or not you can deal with it, it kinda pisses me off. There are plenty of good, productive challenges that should be made to a reader's sensibilities, and there's also plenty of pretentious, offensive, self-important crap.

That's the difference I'm shooting for, anyway. Whether or not I ever accomplish it is not for me to judge. I just want to give everybody my best effort.

Okay, I'm done spouting. Have at me.

 

[p_p_man]

Nice Piece of Marketing!

It may be that I'm jaded or that my idea of extreme is entirely different from the rest of the world but I found nothing offensive in your story at all.

It was nicely written, the description of Anna under possession was in keeping with the general story line and the happy ending left everyone with the feel-good factor.

I admit I probably wouldn't have read it unless it was for this thread. Not because of any dislike for the genre (on the contrary!) but to read every story on the site would be a full time job.

They do say that only five original stories have ever been written and that every other story in the world is really spawned from those five. I did recognise in your work bits and pieces from other things I've read. It happens, we all do it. Somewhere in the depths of our subconsious lurk those wonderful phrases which we think are all our own but are they?...

On that I've sent you a quick e-mail as I don't want to spoil other readers enjoyment of the tale.

I liked it.