How much is too Much?

[Colleen Thomas]

I am currently working on a story that has a multi layered plot, with several plot twists. I wish to foreshadow some of them and to give the reader a chance at least to anticipate them. At the same time I don't want to just give it away.

I have never really used foreshadowing much, so I was wondering if anyone here had some general rules or ideas on what is too obvious and what is too obscure, how much needs to be shown and how much needs to be disguised?

-Colly

 

[destinie21]

I am currently working on a story that has a multi layered plot, with several plot twists. I wish to foreshadow some of them and to give the reader a chance at least to anticipate them. At the same time I don't want to just give it away.

I have never really used foreshadowing much, so I was wondering if anyone here had some general rules or ideas on what is too obvious and what is too obscure, how much needs to be shown and how much needs to be disguised?

-Colly

IT's hard to say without actually knowing the story but as a general rule, when I use foreshadowing I tend to use my judgement. Some of it I make obvious and you'd have to be not paying attention at all to miss it then on other things (like for instance foreshadowing a surprise ending) I'll slip things in on the sly so at the end the reader is like "oooooh now I see" but like I said it's a judgement call as to how cleveer the general readership is, personally I get bored if I've figured out whats going to happen at the end. I've even been known to skip to the end to see if I'm right. If so I don't bother with the rest of the read.

 

[pop_54]

I am currently working on a story that has a multi layered plot, with several plot twists. I wish to foreshadow some of them and to give the reader a chance at least to anticipate them. At the same time I don't want to just give it away.

I have never really used foreshadowing much, so I was wondering if anyone here had some general rules or ideas on what is too obvious and what is too obscure, how much needs to be shown and how much needs to be disguised?

-Colly

Tell them nothing Colly, scare the shit out of them with a surprise or two

Seriously I rarely tell anyone anything in advance, either by stealth or more direct means, but then I don't often include too many sub-plots and twists in normal horny short tales. I suppose to maintain interest one could drop a few hints, but I'd not go further than mild hints. Tell them too much and they'll lose interest, tell them a little they'll be intrigued.

If your story is very long, and includes much narrative history and detailing, you'll find that hints and foreshadowing will occur naturally as you write. I'm writing a long winded thing at the moment, it's obvious what's going to happen eventually by the second Word page, but not how it's going to happen or what it will be like.

pops

 

[Liar]

The best novels I've read have always been the ones where I have some kind of general idea of what should be happening next, and for the morepart my predictions are quite right, but they also screws me over often enough to not give me too much security about that, often on some of the more important issues. It gives the story just the right amount of suspense. I'm just assuming that the saying "a good lie is best told between two truths" applies here. Give away enough hints on some turn of events, but hide others. Give the reader enough clues to sense that he is in control, and then open the trapdoor he's standing on.

On the other hand, you're asking a question that not even published, moderately esteemed and well read authors fairly often gets wrong. Just tune the thing until the clue vs suspense gauge is somewhat balanced and it feels right to you.

#L

 

[angela146]

Hi Colly,

First of all, please enjoy a bare-breasted hug and kiss from a woman with big soft boobs, for all of the wonderful posts you contribute around here.

Now where was I.

Oh, yeah, foreshadowing.

Foreshadowing can have different purposes. Here are two of them:

Mystery: You feed the reader a bunch of little, seemingly random, clues throughout the story. None of it seems to point much of anywhere until, at the very end, it all collapses into place and ties itself up in a bow.

Those clues have to be subtle enough to be mysterious but give just enough information so that the reader will say, "Of course! How did I miss that?"

This ain't easy. It's a matter of writing the whole story and then teasing the bits and pieces of it from beginning to end a little at a time until it's just right.

Mood setting: In this case, you show the reader more of a clue but you do it metaphorically. The idea is to give them a sense of impending doom or impending happiness so that they carry the mood with them as they read the middle bits.

In this case, you can be pretty strong with the foreshadowing but the story itself could look like it's going in a completely different direction... until the end.

Think of the final scenes of Hamlet. We know that the sword is poisoned and so is the cup. But Hamlet doesn't drink from the cup and (I think it's Horatio) doesn't hit him in the sword fight.

Until... suddenly queen drinks... the swordsman cheats... and we now know for sure how it is going to end. We knew it would be death all around anyway but we had that glimmer of hope that all might turn out for the best.

The foreshadowing was blunt but the mood it created was wonderful.

The same can be said of a happy ending. Start the story with the main character telling us "We've been happy together for ten years and have a wonderful life, but it didn't start out that way..."

Then you can take us through two years of absolute Hell and make it look like her lover is going to die of fifteen different causes, but we know that somehow they are both going to be alive and happy together ten years later.

This kind of foreshadowing is blatant but it allows you to make the story truely horrifying because we *know* that they will survive it and be happy.

Does that help?

 

[CharleyH]

symbolism and metaphor - make it resonate, linger on it, make the reader wonder why the fuck it is there . . .recurring subtley until you get to it, and then they say "AH HA"

 

[sweetnpetite]

The best novels I've read have always been the ones where I have some kind of general idea of what should be happening next, and for the morepart my predictions are quite right, but they also screws me over often enough to not give me too much security about that, often on some of the more important issues. It gives the story just the right amount of suspense. I'm just assuming that the saying "a good lie is best told between two truths" applies here. Give away enough hints on some turn of events, but hide others. Give the reader enough clues to sense that he is in control, and then open the trapdoor he's standing on.

On the other hand, you're asking a question that not even published, moderately esteemed and well read authors fairly often gets wrong. Just tune the thing until the clue vs suspense gauge is somewhat balanced and it feels right to you.

#L

Now that's some good advice. I'll have to try to remember that.

One way to be subtle with your forshadowing- or 'clues' as the case may be- is to have it not be part of the main plotline. You introduce the information in regards to subplot b. or whatever, and the readers mind will put it into a category with subplot b. usually not connecting it with mainplot.

Say for instance, that later it will be important to know that my pen has a secret compartment for hiding small notes or trinkets. You want to introduce this information in a subplot, preferably something emotionaly charged or important in the life and problems of a secondary character, rather than the character the information will impact later.

Hope this helps.

 

[sweetnpetite]

In otherwords, you need to have a *reason* for introducing information. One that *doesn't* make the reader wonder why you said it, but lets then accept the information at face value. That's pretty much how you blindside them

Hope this helps.

Ment to add this in an edit, came out almost as a double post but not quite. I'm just going to leave it as a second post, but it goes with the one above it.

 

[dirtylover]

hi

Have you ever watched The Usual Suspects? It's a good example of foreshadowing. It's a film though.

 

[gauchecritic]

Colly, my advice would be to hit them over the head.

If you're going to foreshadow a lover's death, then have them partaking in base jumping. If you want a surprise twist of an incestuous man trying to make his lover into the image of his mother then make the man a plastic surgeon.

Being subtle or ingenious will work only for ten to fifteen percent of your readers.

For how to be too subtle by far try my story Abigail Slaughter.

All the clues and hints I threw into that story were obvious and pointed to the ending. That was because I knew what the ending was, and which were the clues. To date, no one else does.

Gauche

P.S If you're averse to black pudding you may not like it.

 

[Weird Harold]

I have never really used foreshadowing much, so I was wondering if anyone here had some general rules or ideas on what is too obvious and what is too obscure, how much needs to be shown and how much needs to be disguised?

There are so many ways to foreshadow coming events that it's almost impossible to deal with foreshadowing in general terms.

One of the most common kinds of foreshadowing is "ironic" -- very early on in a story, a character says, "I would never..." and circumstances start building in such a way the character has no choice but to do whatever they said the wouldn't.

Another kind of forshadowing is similar -- "what everybody knows usually isn't so." The more chracters assure me that "everybody knows" something themor eI expect it to be wrong. "Everybody knows she's a slut," repreated often enough virtually assures she's going to turn out to be a virgin.

The only practical advice I can offer has to do with the dynamics of reading rather than foreshadowing:

A typical reader will always remember what is in the first sentence of paragraph, usually remember what is in the last paragraph, and only retain a general impression of the sentences in the middle.

If you want to hide something from your readers, like a clue to a mystery or a bit of foreshadowing, put it in the middle of a relatively long paragraph. Where you place information within a paragraph gives you a measure of control over how much importance the reader places on it and how well it gets remembered.

 

[SnoopDog]

I am currently working on a story that has a multi layered plot, with several plot twists. I wish to foreshadow some of them and to give the reader a chance at least to anticipate them. At the same time I don't want to just give it away.

I have never really used foreshadowing much, so I was wondering if anyone here had some general rules or ideas on what is too obvious and what is too obscure, how much needs to be shown and how much needs to be disguised?

-Colly

I just want to mention that I have the utmost respect for writers that are able to write good plot twists.
Because if it is a good twist it can lift the story to perfection, if done poorly it an ruine what otherwise might be a good story.
And then foreshadowing the whole thing makes it even more a dance on the edge of a knife, I guess.
But I certainly wish you all the best of luck for it.
Snoopy

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Thank you all for your input.

After posting this question I let two friends look at the work and both told me the foreshadowing was heavy handed. Not because it wasn't done well, but because I am such a stickler for internal continuity in my works that any unresolved question or vagrancy stands out like a sore thumb. I am not at all sure what to do about it, although I am going to try the great suggestion from WH and bury my clues in the middle of long paragraphs, which I just happen to have plenty of

This also may not be so much a question of foreshadowing as of giving minor hints that something is amis. What I want is for the surprise to be intact, but I also want a reader to look back at what has been said when the surprise is revealed and slap their heads and go "Doh, why did't I see that coming??"

The story is long, nearly 50 word pages for what I would consider the first "chapter" and at least two to follow. I feel I need to add some forshadowing to keep the suspense up, but I have never sat down to write such a long piece and all the comments are greatly appreciated.

-Colly

 

[SnoopDog]

Thank you all for your input.

After posting this question I let two friends look at the work and both told me the foreshadowing was heavy handed. Not because it wasn't done well, but because I am such a stickler for internal continuity in my works that any unresolved question or vagrancy stands out like a sore thumb. I am not at all sure what to do about it, although I am going to try the great suggestion from WH and bury my clues in the middle of long paragraphs, which I just happen to have plenty of

This also may not be so much a question of foreshadowing as of giving minor hints that something is amis. What I want is for the surprise to be intact, but I also want a reader to look back at what has been said when the surprise is revealed and slap their heads and go "Doh, why did't I see that coming??"

The story is long, nearly 50 word pages for what I would consider the first "chapter" and at least two to follow. I feel I need to add some forshadowing to keep the suspense up, but I have never sat down to write such a long piece and all the comments are greatly appreciated.

-Colly

Well i'm looking forward to it, I just want to encourgae you to hang in and finish even a long story. Oh and as for the 'Damn, why didn't I see that coming'-part, I always LOVE it when a story does that to me. So, we'll wait and see
Snoopy

 

[raphy]

A lot of what I write has plot twists. I love writing them, and I love reading them. Foreshadowing isn't really the same thing, but maybe some of this might help you.

1) Don't be too vague. You know the story better than any of your readers are going to. Something that seems blatantly obvious to you isn't going to seem as obvious to someone else. You can get away with some absolutely in-your-face hints that people will overlook.

2) Don't make them seem like hints, make them seem like valid parts of the story. Misdirection. Houdini and the elephant. If you're going to hide, there's no place like hiding in the open. The Usual Suspects is probably the best example of this, movie-wise.

3) Red herrings. I don't mean Mickey Spillane-style red herrings, but plot red herrings. If you're trying to hide a secret from your readers, give them a solution whereby all the pieces of the puzzle fit. It won't be the right solution, but it'll be *a* solution, and if you make it semi-tricky to work out, they'll be too busy congratulating themselves to worry about whether it's actually the right solution.

4) Following from 3, think about the story from the point of view of the character that has something to hide. He or she is going to have a cover story. Let the reader figure out the cover story. Yes, that means that you have to invent two different ways of explaining the same sequence of events, one true and one false, but that's part of the fun of writing this sort of stuff.

There is a children's game that involves putting oddly-shaped plastic pieces into a square tray. There's ten pieces. If you're smart, you can fit all ten pieces into the tray, and they make a perfect square.

However, if you're really smart, you can also remove one of the pieces, and fit the remaining nine into the tray, still making (what appears to be) a perfect square.

Obviously, it's not quite perfect, but the gaps are so small, it's very hard to notice them.

THe important thing is this: If you were only given those 9 pieces, you could fit them into the square tray and you would think you had solved the puzzle

Y'see?

I think of plot twists and misdirection in those terms. I like to give my readers the 10 pieces, and let them figure out the square for themselves.. BUT .. As a writer, you get the influence what pieces are made important and obvious to your reader. If your protagonist only takes 9 to be important, and makes the square with that 9, then 99% of the time, your readers will follow him or her.

So you make the square with 9, and then at the end, you throw in the 10th that completely rearranges the pattern.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

"Little did I know it would turn out to be one of the most exciting nights of my life!"

Translation: please stick around through the deadly boring run-up to the good part.

It's impossible to answer your question without more details. In general, though, I would ne very cautious about using foreshadowing in a third-person story. It takes you right out of the story. Normally, I want the author to tell me a story, not tell me about how he's telling me a story.

---dr.M.

 

[angela146]

You might want to check out "The Little Book of Hollywood Cliches" by Roger Ebert.

He includes things like, "Any character who talks about what he wants to do after this is all over will be dead by the end of the film."

It gives some great ideas of what not to do.

 

[sweetnpetite]

You might want to check out "The Little Book of Hollywood Cliches" by Roger Ebert.

He includes things like, "Any character who talks about what he wants to do after this is all over will be dead by the end of the film."

It gives some great ideas of what not to do.

LOL, I never noticed that- but I did notice a long time ago that if a character describes his plan in detail- it will not go as planned, but if he doen't describe his plan but says, "I know just what to do..." things *will* go as he plans. I think it sort of comes from the author not wanting to restate what's already been said, and with suspence, and some with forshadowing. Even though I've figured it out, I still think it's a good techninque. It sets up the readers thinking, but also it lets the reader see for himself that things are or are not going as they should. You don't wan't to explain as you go along that things were supposed to go differently- and often, the contrast is were humor or tragedy comes in

 

[sweetnpetite]

Thank you all for your input.

After posting this question I let two friends look at the work and both told me the foreshadowing was heavy handed. Not because it wasn't done well, but because I am such a stickler for internal continuity in my works that any unresolved question or vagrancy stands out like a sore thumb.
-Colly

What you want to do here, is either leave a lot of ends loose until the end (that would require you to go back in and 'untie' them) OR, suggest an incorrect sollution so readers won't dwell on it.

If a half eaten pband j sandwich, for example, is a clue, don't even have the protagonist wonder about it. Just have him/her note it and take his assumption for granted.


"She looked at the counter in disgust. Her brother Andy had left a half eaten sandwich laying on a paper plate. Wouldn't he ever learn to pick up after himself?" Later, in the middle of a paragraph (he he) we slip in that Andy is alergic to peanut butter, or is on a no carb diet, or is against the use of disposable products. Only he mentions disposable diapers or something, not directly related to plates. Just make sure, that you have a good reason for bringing it up.

 

[Boota]

I have a clue in my book about the identity of a mystery woman. I thought it was incredibly obvious and the point wasn't to be sly, it was to show how oblivious the main character is. Still, about 75% of my readers haven't caught it early. The rest say they knew as soon as they read it. I had fun shocking them in other ways, though.

I look at it like a magic trick. Misdirection is the key. I hate a mystery that you can't possibly solve because you weren't given enough information. I like it when everything is presented that you need, but it is hidden, and you see it all clearly in the end. The Usual Suspects is a great example.

Some people won't get a subtle clue, but I never worry about that. I figure the RIGHT people will get it. LOL. And if not, at the end I will tell them.