How Many Dead?

[Marxist]

From FAIR.COM

How many civilians have been killed in Afghanistan since the start of U.S.-led bombing on October 7? Journalists and aid workers have limited access to the area, so it’s an admittedly difficult question to answer. But many U.S. media outlets don’t seem to be trying very hard.

Full article here:http://www.fair.org/activism/afghanistan-casualties.html


This not a thread to complain or compare the numbers killed in Afgan. versus the WTC. We've already covered that subject ad nauseum. We're all patriots in our own way. The question here is one of fair and balanced reporting and journalistic integrity.

 

[bluespoke]

A very fair question to which I do not know the answer. Strangely (not) the British media are not exactly forthcoming either.

It will be interesting to see if anyone can come up with a figure that is vaguely accurate and verifiable.

 

[Mischka]

Do you have any links for how many Afghans have died from the continuing famine? Or how many have not died because of the relief workers that have gotten through to the areas formerly controlled by the Taliban?

 

[riff]

What a great site!

Refreshing!

 

[WriterDom]

Depends. If you use Taliban sources it's around -

58575674754765487548754875487945984598459854985498549845984598598538953985398539853895983532985389538953985398539853985389538998734328742874873708537089358056439054586435430985634095436543985643986504365043564309856436504356094365430986598430639659843509843650984654039865908436540396594365094365098436594386543064365094650943543654309659438659438654365043509846509436509436534986509436584365309846590436098436509465094365094365094365094365094309843656543650943659436543650943659436509435609436594356439543650943650960943096436596509436509436509435096394943650959435094306594396543095604365094365096509436509436504350943650943650943650943650943650943509436059435094395604503463547450745074507450745075346823534278327532845238452393249853298732459328754938245983245932845983254983275832758324598327543298745983253287453279845983275498324593284598327532874532984532984982345328974598324532987459238459328754983254983245829375423798459238732897453294325949832745329845329845983274598324598324532984585756747547654875487548754879459845984598549854985498459845985985389539853985398538959835329853895389539853985398539853895389987343287428748737085370893580564390545864354309856340954365439856439865043650435643098564365043560943654309865984306396598435098436509846540398659084365403965943650943650984365943865430643650946509435436543096594386594386543650435098465094365094365349865094365843653098465904360984365094650943650943650943650943650943098436565436509436594365436509436594365094356094365943564395436509436509609430964365965094365094365094350963949436509594350943065943965430956043650943650965094365094365043509436509436509436509436509436509435094360594350943956045034635474507450745074507450753468235342783275328452384523932498532987324593287549382459832459328459832549832758327583245983275432987459832532874532798459832754983245932845983275328745329845329849823453289745983245329874592384593287549832549832458293754237984592387328974532943259498327453298453298459832745983245983245329845857567475476548754875487548794598459845985498549854984598459859853895398539853985389598353298538953895398539853985398538953899873432874287487370853708935805643905458643543098563409543654398564398650436504356430985643650435609436543098659843063965984350984365098465403986590843654039659436509436509843659438654306436509465094354365430965943865943865436504350984650943650943653498650943658436530984659043609843650946509436509436509436509436509430984365654365094365943654365094365943650943560943659435643954365094365096094309643659650943650943650943509639494365095943509430659439654309560436509436509650943650943650435094365094365094365094365094365094350943605943509439560450346354745074507450745074507534682353427832753284523845239324985329873245932875493824598324593284598325498327583275832459832754329874598325328745327984598327549832459328459832753287453298453298498234532897459832453298745923845932875498325498324582937542379845923873289745329432594983274532984532984598327459832459832453298458575674754765487548754875487945984598459854985498549845984598598538953985398539853895983532985389538953985398539853985389538998734328742874873708537089358056439054586435430985634095436543985643986504365043564309856436504356094365430986598430639659843509843650984654039865908436540396594365094365098436594386543064365094650943543654309659438659438654365043509846509436509436534986509436584365309846590436098436509465094365094365094365094365094309843656543650943659436543650943659436509435609436594356439543650943650960943096436596509436509436509435096394943650959435094306594396543095604365094365096509436509436504350943650943650943650943650943650943509436059435094395604503463547450745074507450745075346823534278327532845238452393249853298732459328754938245983245932845983254983275832758324598327543298745983253287453279845983275498324593284598327532874532984532984982345328974598324532987459238459328754983254983245829375423798459238732897453294325949832745329845329845983274598324598324532984585756747547654875487548754879459845984598549854985498459845985985389539853985398538959835329853895389539853985398539853895389987343287428748737085370893580564390545864354309856340954365439856439865043650435643098564365043560943654309865984306396598435098436509846540398659084365403965943650943650984365943865430643650946509435436543096594386594386543650435098465094365094365349865094365843653098465904360984365094650943650943650943650943650943098436565436509436594365436509436594365094356094365943564395436509436509609430964365965094365094365094350963949436509594350943065943965430956043650943650965094365094365043509436509436509436509436509436509435094360594350943956045034635474507450745074507450753468235342783275328452384523932498532987324593287549382459832459328459832549832758327583245983275432987459832532874532798459832754983245932845983275328745329845329849823453289745983245329874592384593287549832549832458293754237984592387328974532943259498327453298453298459832745983245983245329845857567475476548754875487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give or take a few

 

[bluespoke]

Mischka

With respect, I think you are missing the point. There are many experts who will tell us how many have died because of famine and also how many have been saved because of the intervention.

Nowhere, has anyone with any knowledge and information given us the figures of Afghan casualties. Its a simple thirst for knowledge, knowledge which both the USA and the UK are not supplying.

 

[Marxist]

Do you have any links for how many Afghans have died from the continuing famine? Or how many have not died because of the relief workers that have gotten through to the areas formerly controlled by the Taliban?

I expect more than that from you.

 

[Mischka]

While I agree that the major news outlets in the US (and apparently the UK?) have not reported this information, I do not consider the number of Afghan casualties a number that is easy to calculate. Even in the link provided the estimate ranged from a few hundred to 3500. My point is that there is no accurate way to measure the number of Afghan civilian deaths, given the many variables affecting the region.

As a follow up (and sincere question), is it a common practice to report the number of civilian deaths in a war? I recognize that we have not declared war on the people of Afghanistan, but on the Taliban, but the proximity of the two make it impossible to go after the latter without adversely impacting the former.

 

[riff]

I expect more than that from you.

How dare you, Marxist! Because you are asking us to look at the dark side of war, you are subverting our war effort and the general jingoistic fervor that is currently turning so many once happy consumers into patriots! As your name implies, you are pinko-commie-liberal slime.

Jesus is Lord! The Lord is God! We must all submit to God. God bless America! God bless America! God bless America!

Why, I'll bet you don't even have a flag on your car. I'll bet you don't even believe in God. I'll bet you didn't vote for Bush. God wanted Bush to be President because he wants us all to be proper 'Mericans all a-prayin' and believin' in the flag. I bet you don't believe in the flag either!

... and I'm proud to be a 'Merican where at least I know I am free....

<coughs>

Take that, you pinko-commie-falafel-eating-unpatriotic scum, you!

GOD BLESS AMERICA! WE ARE #1! Hurray! Hurray!

 

[Marxist]

How dare you, Marxist! Because you are asking us to look at the dark side of war, you are subverting our war effort and the general jingoistic fervor that is currently turning so many once happy consumers into patriots! As your name implies, you are pinko-commie-liberal slime.

Jesus is Lord! The Lord is God! We must all submit to God. God bless America! God bless America! God bless America!

Why, I'll bet you don't even have a flag on your car. I'll bet you don't even believe in God. I'll bet you didn't vote for Bush. God wanted Bush to be President because he wants us all to be proper 'Mericans all a-prayin' and believin' in the flag. I bet you don't believe in the flag either!

... and I'm proud to be a 'Merican where at least I know I am free....

<coughs>

Take that, you pinko-commie-falafel-eating-unpatriotic scum, you!

GOD BLESS AMERICA! WE ARE #1! Hurray! Hurray!

I'm having couscous and kosher ham for dinner, say about 9?

 

[Mischka]

I know the tongue in cheek questions were not directed at me, but since the dripping sarcasm was, I'm responding.

Why, I'll bet you don't even have a flag on your car.

Nope.

I'll bet you don't even believe in God.

Nope.

I'll bet you didn't vote for Bush.

Nope.

I'm not refusing to look at the "dark side" of war, I'm simply questioning the numbers and the intent behind calculating them. There are no pat answers in a war, and I find the attempt to pin x number of innocent deaths on the US to be simplistic.

 

[riff]

9PM? Eastern time?

I knew it! You are also a NY Hebe! Damn Israelies are gonna get us in war!

(laughing my ass off- you don't know me, do you?)

hehehehe

 

[bluespoke]

Marxist

Make sure you're wearing body armour, I think he could be totin' a sub machine gun just for you.

Lucky I'm in the other side of the Atlantic. With the exception of Mr Blair and New Labour , we still allow free speech.

 

[riff]

OK OK OK... I'll give

My apologies Mischka.

I have unfairly vented on on you.

To be perfectly honest-

I am tired of the propaganda on our side.
I am tired of seeing my boss TRASH the Constitution of the United States when she begins our faculty meeting by asking us to stand and join her in prayers to the Lord in Jesus's name.
I am tired of hearing GOD BLESS AMERICA and I am tired of hearing about how wonderfully right we are.
I am tired of being accused of being unpatriotic when I question the domestic policies of GW Bush.

I support what we are doing. But I am not a blind moron who is ready to march in a torchlit parade like many people I know.

You didn't do any of those things that I am tired of. I am sorry.

I'm just sick of it.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Mischka's right. Getting an accurate body count since the bombings started is difficult here. What's more is that it doesn't tell the whole story. Not only is there there the humanitarian aid now reaching virtually all of Afghanistan that Mischka mentions, you can also consider that potential future consequences of Al Qaeda attacks that won't happen now that their assets are frozen and they're facing destruction in their caves. We have no way of knowing how many lives they would've taken had there not been a military intervention.

Call me jingoistic or whatever you want, but I don't see moral equivalency between the intentional killing of thousands of innocents and the unintentional killing of innocents. I know consequentialist ethics in vogue, but intent still matters a great deal to me.

 

[riff]

Oliver

Point taken regarding the difficulty of counting.

BTW- I don't find a moral equivilent either.

 

[Marxist]

Miscka and Oliver, what should our media do? Just take it as fait accompli no matter how many die, no matter the circumstance? I want better media coverage than that and more responsible journalism.

 

[modest mouse]

Since noone else brought it up.........

What makes a civilian and what makes a soldier in this war/action? The line is not clear, there is no organized army. Many of the forces are tribes...are they civilians? Are only women and children civilians? What about 13 year olds with automatic weapons?

Honest questions for which I do not know the answers.

 

[Laurel]

While I agree that the major news outlets in the US (and apparently the UK?) have not reported this information, I do not consider the number of Afghan casualties a number that is easy to calculate.

The death toll from the WTC blast was also a difficult number to calculate, but that didn't stop the media merely hours after the fact from assessing that 20,000 people died in the collapse.

I think it's sad that people are choosing their news sources not for their accuracy but by what kind of spin they put on events. I think it's even sadder that the media is more concerned with ratings than with investigating and accurately reporting events.

 

[JazzManJim]

What I've seen a lot of in the print media, at least has been something on the order of:

The Taliban report that 100 civilians were killed in the latest US bombing raid. Townspeople put that number closer to ten, but also say that 8 were working with the Taliban, guarding the installation when it was hit.

I've seen that quite a few times in the Post and Times here in Washington, and the New York Times.

As to why the media isn't reporting the numbers of killed civilians is hard to say. My own suspicion would be that since they don't have any definite numbers, and definite numbers are hard to come by, they're not going to report on it. They seem willing to quote both sides' estimates, but as for hard numbers...well..they don't exist.

 

[LukkyKnight]

Once upon a time I would have agreed

I think it's even sadder that the media is more concerned with ratings than with investigating and accurately reporting events.

...but then I read "Killing Time" by Caleb Carr, and while I have not given in to the paranoia which that tale might inspire, I have developed an even more cynical view of the disconnect between motive and content.

So long as we are free to ask such questions, and a reasonably large fraction of the people don't simply accept what is spoon-fed to them via the so-called news outlets, we haven't yet lost the real war - but this truly is the disinformation age.

 

[Cheyenne]

Hey, Riff. You wouldn't have to stay in America and suffer all this patriotic stuff right now if you'd timed your cruise better. Remember? The one you planned to take with the tax refund you were never going to get from Bush? How was your trip, anyway? You never sent me a post card.

 

[Laurel]

What's even scarier than the network news spinning like a top is the book publishers' recent self-censorship. HarperCollins is refusing to release Michael Moore's new book because it is critical of President Bush. (Funny, I don't remember anyone refusing to release anti-Clinton books during the last 8 years.) And I believe that Gore Vidal's new book - also critical of this administration - is not being released in the US.

 

[pdx39]

Good news

It's nice to see some folks aren't brainwashed by the corporate media. I suggest going to the web pages for Public Citizen, The ACLU, USPIRG, The Nation, The Progressive, Mother Jones and indymedia.org for news with an edge.

 

[riff]

Unfortunately

Hey, Riff. You wouldn't have to stay in America and suffer all this patriotic stuff right now if you'd timed your cruise better. Remember? The one you planned to take with the tax refund you were never going to get from Bush? How was your trip, anyway? You never sent me a post card.

Quite nice. Sorry Cheyenne, but I had forgotton you existed.

As for suffering patriotism- I really don't mind so much the flags and the singing, it's the idea that some people have that if waving flags and singing isn't your thing, then you are something less than a good citizen. There's a lot of that going around and I find it saddening.