How do you help the environment?

[SeaCat]

Okay this is inspired by Carsons thread.

How do you help the environment? What do you do in your daily life?

Cat

 

[rgraham666]

Okay this is inspired by Carsons thread.

How do you help the environment? What do you do in your daily life?

Cat

Don't drive. Use public transit.

Make sure I recycle everything possible. Any that can goes into the composter.

Try to keep my electricity consumption to a minimum. That's one of the reasons I like my new Mac.

Too poor to do too much other damage.

 

[neonlyte]

Cat,
We installed a water meter about eighteen months ago. The water company couldn't believe how little water we use - less than 20 cubic metres a year for a 2 person family. My wife is a water demon. She once did an arts residency on Cape Verde islands (off Africa), volcanic islands, little water. She got one bucket of water a day for washing, cleaning, cooking, toilet and the donkey (don't ask).

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I live in America where I pay high taxes to support several layers of expensive government, and also support a civic culture that maintains the rule of law and a sense of good citizenship, all of which combines to create an environment where it does not pay to crap on your neighbor's lawn, so to speak. In general, this system is highly effective at protecting against environmental degradation compared to what does or has existed in other places, such as the pre-1991 communist world, many corrupt and economically stagnant parts of Latin America, and desperately poor Third World nations. Additional actions taken by individuals are for the most part purely symbolic, and have no substantive effect on the environment.

The most important factor in establishing high environmental protection standards is wealth; rich nations got 'em, and poor nations don't. It's not the primary reason I do so, but this is a good reason to support supply side tax cuts that have the effect of lowering the disincentives to wealth creation.

Yeah I know, I'm a spoil sport and a smart-ass, but these are the facts.

 

[neonlyte]

Roxy,
I really don't have the energy to reply to your post.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Roxy,
I really don't have the energy to reply to your post.

No need, darling. When I'm done, there's nothing left to say.




Um, seriously, I suspect that there is a lack of unanimity (sp) regarding some of the things I stated, and that to a certain extent some of them refer to matters that are intrinsically ambiguous, and so ever subject to different interepretations. However, perhaps an interesting discussion might be had about the genuine efficacy vs. purely symbolic 'feel good' aspect of individual actions. On that subject, I submit (this):

Is Global Warming a Sin?
Alexander Cockburn in The Nation, May 14, 2007

In a couple of hundred years historians will be comparing the frenzies over our supposed human contribution to global warming to the tumults at the latter end of the tenth century as the Christian millennium approached. Then as now, the doomsters identified human sinfulness as the propulsive factor in the planet's rapid downward slide. Then as now, a buoyant market throve on fear. The Roman Catholic Church sold indulgences like checks. The sinners established a line of credit against bad behavior and could go on sinning. Today a world market in "carbon credits" is in formation. Those whose "carbon footprint" is small can sell their surplus carbon credits to others less virtuous than themselves.

The modern trade is as fantastical as the medieval one. There is still zero empirical evidence that anthropogenic production of carbon dioxide is making any measurable contribution to the world's present warming trend. The greenhouse fearmongers rely on unverified, crudely oversimplified models to finger mankind's sinful contribution--and carbon trafficking, just like the old indulgences, is powered by guilt, credulity, cynicism and greed.

(more)

 

[SeaCat]

I live in America where I pay high taxes to support several layers of expensive government, and also support a civic culture that maintains the rule of law and a sense of good citizenship, all of which combines to create an environment where it does not pay to crap on your neighbor's lawn, so to speak. In general, this system is highly effective at protecting against environmental degradation compared to what does or has existed in other places, such as the pre-1991 communist world, many corrupt and economically stagnant parts of Latin America, and desperately poor Third World nations. Additional actions taken by individuals are for the most part purely symbolic, and have no substantive effect on the environment.

The most important factor in establishing high environmental protection standards is wealth; rich nations got 'em, and poor nations don't. It's not the primary reason I do so, but this is a good reason to support supply side tax cuts that have the effect of lowering the disincentives to wealth creation.

Yeah I know, I'm a spoil sport and a smart-ass, but these are the facts.

Roxanne,

While I disagree with you I have no numbers to back me up, and yet I can't help but wonder.

I do as much as I can and find it to be no hardship.

Driving. I have a car that averages 23 miles per Gallon. I limit my driving. I drive to and from work. It is on my way home from work that I stop at the stores to get what I need. We rarely drive on our days off.

Electricity. Lights are turned off when not in use. The A/C is set at 80 degrees. All but four of the light bulbs in our house are either Flouresants or LED's. (Those four that aren't are the bulbs in the Frdge, The Microwave, the oven and the range hood.) My Hot Water Heater and stove are both high efficency Propane.

Water- Both Shower Heads are low volume heads with shut off valves. Both toilets are low volume. The water from the sinks and showers is piped into a holding tank to be used in watering the lawn and plants. (My wife and I both use Bio-degradable soaps and shampoo's.) (I also have two 55 gallon plastic drums I salvaged from the trash and cleaned out. These are anchored in place beneath two downspouts to catch rain water which, if it ever rains here, will also be used to water the plants.)

Cans, bottles, glass and plastic jugs are placed in the recycle bin. The same with paper products.

Plastic bags from the stores are either usd as trash bags or they are loaded into another bag and saved. When I have a bag or so full they are turned in to a local store that recycles them.

Food scraps as well as yard wastes are placed in another 55 gallon drum for composting. (This is a drum on a spindle with a cap. You add the scraps and such then roll the drum a couple of times to mix it all together.)

I have received letters from both the Electric Company threatening legal action if it was found I was getting Electricity illegaly because our bill is consistantly so low. The same from the Water Utilities. I had to have reps from both utilities come out and see what we were doing before they left us alone.

Cat

 

[neonlyte]

Is Global Warming a Sin?
Alexander Cockburn in The Nation, May 14, 2007

In a couple of hundred years historians will be comparing the frenzies over our supposed human contribution to global warming to the tumults at the latter end of the tenth century as the Christian millennium approached. Then as now, the doomsters identified human sinfulness as the propulsive factor in the planet's rapid downward slide. Then as now, a buoyant market throve on fear. The Roman Catholic Church sold indulgences like checks. The sinners established a line of credit against bad behavior and could go on sinning. Today a world market in "carbon credits" is in formation. Those whose "carbon footprint" is small can sell their surplus carbon credits to others less virtuous than themselves.

The modern trade is as fantastical as the medieval one. There is still zero empirical evidence that anthropogenic production of carbon dioxide is making any measurable contribution to the world's present warming trend. The greenhouse fearmongers rely on unverified, crudely oversimplified models to finger mankind's sinful contribution--and carbon trafficking, just like the old indulgences, is powered by guilt, credulity, cynicism and greed.

(more)

Hmmm... do you think he knew sea levels were a couple of metres higher at the end of the tenth century?

GW (not Bush) is in danger of becoming the next 'religion', largely due to belivers and non-believers. I'm reducing my energy footprint 1) because I can; 2) because it hurts no one; 3) I save money; 4) in the lack of firm evidence either way, what I'm doing seems prudent.

I also planted 3,500 trees two years ago, they are about 40cm high and will be for my daughter's family and I'm trying to get permission to build 'zero energy' houses on land we own. I do these things for the reasons 1) - 4). Nothing else.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Roxanne,

While I disagree with you I have no numbers to back me up, and yet I can't help but wonder.

I do as much as I can and find it to be no hardship.

Driving. I have a car that averages 23 miles per Gallon. I limit my driving. I drive to and from work. It is on my way home from work that I stop at the stores to get what I need. We rarely drive on our days off.

Electricity. Lights are turned off when not in use. The A/C is set at 80 degrees. All but four of the light bulbs in our house are either Flouresants or LED's. (Those four that aren't are the bulbs in the Frdge, The Microwave, the oven and the range hood.) My Hot Water Heater and stove are both high efficency Propane.

Water- Both Shower Heads are low volume heads with shut off valves. Both toilets are low volume. The water from the sinks and showers is piped into a holding tank to be used in watering the lawn and plants. (My wife and I both use Bio-degradable soaps and shampoo's.) (I also have two 55 gallon plastic drums I salvaged from the trash and cleaned out. These are anchored in place beneath two downspouts to catch rain water which, if it ever rains here, will also be used to water the plants.)

Cans, bottles, glass and plastic jugs are placed in the recycle bin. The same with paper products.

Plastic bags from the stores are either usd as trash bags or they are loaded into another bag and saved. When I have a bag or so full they are turned in to a local store that recycles them.

Food scraps as well as yard wastes are placed in another 55 gallon drum for composting. (This is a drum on a spindle with a cap. You add the scraps and such then roll the drum a couple of times to mix it all together.)

I have received letters from both the Electric Company threatening legal action if it was found I was getting Electricity illegaly because our bill is consistantly so low. The same from the Water Utilities. I had to have reps from both utilities come out and see what we were doing before they left us alone.

Cat

See my followup post, Cat.

You do those things because you believe in good citizenship. Notwithstanding my smart-alecky original post, I do much the same, for that reason, and because most of these are sensible and I'm a sensible person. I drive a car comparable to yours because it's comfortable and fits my needs, and anything larger would be superfluous.

I have mostly switched over to those fancy light bulbs because they make economic sense. (To those who expect big nationwide savings, I notice that I tend to use more lights knowing that each one is now cheaper, and I'll bet I'm typical in that.)

I don't conserve water, because I live in a place where people need pumps to keep it out of their basements. I don't really want to get into a debate about recycling, but most of it really is just symbolic. I recycle the bottles and cans that have a deposit, and the newspapers because my city charges me a tax for the service so I might as well use it. The bleach bottles and all that other stuff? Really just symbolic. Plus, there's an "aesthetic" aspect to it, which is also symbolic, I suppose.

On really hot days I generally turn off the AC between 3 and 7 pm, the peak hours, because my house can easily 'coast' during that period and stay comfortable. Actually, that's probably the most individually signifigant thing I do, and the one that is done purely out of good citizenship. One of the genuinely signifigant public policy changes we could make in this nation is to remove legal restrictions on utilities charging different rates at different times.

We don't do that for political reasons - the pols don't want to tick off the grandma who wants to do laundry at 4:00 pm on the hottest day of the year. Dumb. The result is the need for more power plants that are used inefficiently.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

We consume as much local and organic food as possible
We recycle and avoid buying things in non-recyclable packaging
We don't use incandescent lightbulbs
We conserve water
We use rechargeable batteries
I use cloth pads
We use cloth napkins
We use cloth grocery bags
I don't use toxic cleaners or herbicides
We compost
We're planning on installing solar panels next year
We live as unplugged as we can
We plant trees with the kids every year
We use energy efficient appliances
We replace our heating/cooling filters every year
We take community showers
We hardly ever fly


We're working on the eating less meat thing :x DH isn't thrilled about that part. And he commutes a LONG way to work, which isn't good... we're looking for a way he can work from home, actually. But for the moment, he IS carpooling, so that's good.


And we've signed hundreds of petitions, written lots of letters to Congress, belong to several conservation groups, etc...

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Hmmm... do you think he knew sea levels were a couple of metres higher at the end of the tenth century?

GW (not Bush) is in danger of becoming the next 'religion', largely due to belivers and non-believers. I'm reducing my energy footprint 1) because I can; 2) because it hurts no one; 3) I save money; 4) in the lack of firm evidence either way, what I'm doing seems prudent.

I also planted 3,500 trees two years ago, they are about 40cm high and will be for my daughter's family and I'm trying to get permission to build 'zero energy' houses on land we own. I do these things for the reasons 1) - 4). Nothing else.

Other than the saves money, what you describe is mostly an aesthetic preference. That's cool. Personally, mine is not all that different. My only caution is the social cost when that preference is translated into public policy that signifigantly raises the cost of energy and the cost of living. See "Here's an extra $50 billion for good works: How will you spend it?"

And we've signed hundreds of petitions, written lots of letters to Congress, belong to several conservation groups, etc...

Before you sign any more you also should check "Here's an extra $50 billion for good works: How will you spend it?"

 

[Black Thunder]

I skateboard mostly everywhere I go.

 

[neonlyte]

We consume as much local and organic food as possible
We recycle and avoid buying things in non-recyclable packaging
We don't use incandescent lightbulbs
We conserve water
We use rechargeable batteries
I use cloth pads
We use cloth napkins
We use cloth grocery bags
I don't use toxic cleaners or herbicides
We compost
We're planning on installing solar panels next year
We live as unplugged as we can
We plant trees with the kids every year
We use energy efficient appliances
We replace our heating/cooling filters every year
We take community showers
We hardly ever fly


We're working on the eating less meat thing :x DH isn't thrilled about that part. And he commutes a LONG way to work, which isn't good... we're looking for a way he can work from home, actually. But for the moment, he IS carpooling, so that's good.


And we've signed hundreds of petitions, written lots of letters to Congress, belong to several conservation groups, etc...

And I must say, you're looking good on it

Seriously, it's not difficult and no one suffers. People need examples to follow, yours are good.

 

[SeaCat]

See my followup post, Cat.

You do those things because you believe in good citizenship. Notwithstanding my smart-alecky original post, I do much the same, for that reason, and because most of these are sensible and I'm a sensible person. I drive a car comparable to yours because it's comfortable and fits my needs, and anything larger would be superfluous.

I have mostly switched over to those fancy light bulbs because they make economic sense. (To those who expect big nationwide savings, I notice that I tend to use more lights knowing that each one is now cheaper, and I'll bet I'm typical in that.)

I don't conserve water, because I live in a place where people need pumps to keep it out of their basements. I don't really want to get into a debate about recycling, but most of it really is just symbolic. I recycle the bottles and cans that have a deposit, and the newspapers because my city charges me a tax for the service so I might as well use it. The bleach bottles and all that other stuff? Really just symbolic. Plus, there's an "aesthetic" aspect to it, which is also symbolic, I suppose.

On really hot days I generally turn off the AC between 3 and 7 pm, the peak hours, because my house can easily 'coast' during that period and stay comfortable. Actually, that's probably the most individually signifigant thing I do, and the one that is done purely out of good citizenship. One of the genuinely signifigant public policy changes we could make in this nation is to remove legal restrictions on utilities charging different rates at different times.

We don't do that for political reasons - the pols don't want to tick off the grandma who wants to do laundry at 4:00 pm on the hottest day of the year. Dumb. The result is the need for more power plants that are used inefficiently.

Roxanne,

The recycling for me is done as a matter of course. The recycling does not end at the filling of the bins. The nice wood floors I have just finished putting in my place are maybe 10% wood. (And that is recycled wood.) The rest is recycled plastics. The same goes for the paneling I will be putting on my walls. The split rail fencing around my yard is entirely made from recycled plastics.

The only paper products in my household that are not recycled are documents with personal information on them. (These go through a shredder then into a gas fired barrel burner.)

Where my parents live there is currently a lively debate about putting into place a Plasma Generator that runs entirely off trash. I have looked into these on a couple of occasions and find them intrigueing. Think of a generator that once started runs entirely off the energy produced by it's absolute destruction of nearly everything fed into it. Not only does it run off this electricity but it produces enough to feed energy back into the net. Oh it's exhaust is non poluting.

Cat

 

[cheerful_deviant]

Interesting that this thread came up today. Here's what I did after work:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-3/1249307/Bulbs.jpg

All new lightbulbs. Hopefully I will notice a difference. Time will tell.

Roxanne, as for your post on recycling being mostly for symbolics/asthetics:

I live in an area where it costs me around, $400 a year to dispose of my trash. Local landfills are rapidly reaching capacity and there is little space to put new ones that will not impact someone, (NIMBY). So to my thinking, recycling in this neck of the woods isn't just symbolic, it's a necessity to prolong the useable life of the few landfills that are still operating.

As for the global warming debate, I'm not about to start that up. We can both sit here and pick article after article to quote on both sides of the argument forever. But I will say my own personal thoughts on the matter.

Regardless of weather the earth is actually warming, I say man's impact on the environment through greenhouse gasses etc are real and verifiable. All you need to see this is drive down a major highway in the summer when it passes through a wooded area. Notice anything? The trees are brown in the vicinity of the highway. Why? Pollution. Local? Yes. Global? Getting there. The more cars on the road, the more gasses emitted. The more roads you build (read:urban sprawl) means more distribution of the gasses. Not just here but in other sections of the world as well, places where emissions controls are not required. Look at Bombay, the city has some of the worst air quality in the world. The city looks as if it's in a fog half the time and respritory diseases are running rampant through the population. And that's spread out over hundreds, maybe thousands of square miles. That's not changing the earth we live on?

Changing the atmosphere of a system as complex and balanced as the one we live on is not something to be taken lightly. Yes, mankind has been taking measurements of the world around us for such a short time that it's impossible to be completly accurate. But we have an indication that we are or may be heading down a road that may have no outlet, or at least not a good one. Doesn't common sence dictate that we at the very least we should reevaluate out course before we drive off a cliff just because the warning signs weren't crystal clear?

 

[impressive]

We consume as much local and organic food as possible
We recycle and avoid buying things in non-recyclable packaging
We don't use incandescent lightbulbs
We conserve water
We use rechargeable batteries
I use cloth pads
We use cloth napkins
We use cloth grocery bags
I don't use toxic cleaners or herbicides
We compost
We're planning on installing solar panels next year
We live as unplugged as we can
We plant trees with the kids every year
We use energy efficient appliances
We replace our heating/cooling filters every year
We take community showers
We hardly ever fly


We're working on the eating less meat thing :x DH isn't thrilled about that part. And he commutes a LONG way to work, which isn't good... we're looking for a way he can work from home, actually. But for the moment, he IS carpooling, so that's good.


And we've signed hundreds of petitions, written lots of letters to Congress, belong to several conservation groups, etc...

You put me to shame.

I drive a hybrid.
We don't use incandescent lightbulbs.
We recycle everything that a the local recyclers will take.
We try to conserve water & energy (and drum conservation habits into the kids).
I don't use *any* pads (although that step wasn't taken for conservation purposes).
We use cloth napkins.
I do the letters-to-policymakers thing, too.

 

[Liar]

Kittyn, if I may... you list (or some of the things on it) spawned some thoughts.

We consume as much local and organic food as possible

The organic aspect aside (more of a health/lifestyle issue than enviromental), this is probably the most important thing on the list. Because it reduces unnessecary transportation. And moving stuff around is a major energy hog.



We use rechargeable batteries

I was under the impression that modern alkaline batteries were resonably environ friendly, and that the recargeable ones were the ones still containing toxic materials.



I use cloth pads
We use cloth napkins
We use cloth grocery bags

Again, good for reducing transportation. making a paper bag (almost always out of recycled paper anyway) is not a very big pollution villain. Unless you insist on bleached stuff.



We're planning on installing solar panels next year

Are they effective enough to compensate the fact that they are not environment-friendly to manufacture?



We plant trees with the kids every year

No real difference for mother nature. But a nice way to teach the kidlets about her.



We hardly ever fly

What do you do instead?



In the words of Kermit: It ain't easy being green.

 

[Nasha]

Additional actions taken by individuals are for the most part purely symbolic, and have no substantive effect on the environment.

Do you seriously believe that millions and millions of people using up plastic water bottles, styrofoam food containers and loads of other "free" disposable garbage, not to mention energy consumption for transportation and such, day in, day out, year after year has no impact on the environment?

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Do you seriously believe that millions and millions of people using up plastic water bottles, styrofoam food containers and loads of other "free" disposable garbage, not to mention energy consumption for transportation and such, day in, day out, year after year has no impact on the environment?

See my next post. Short answer: Yes, I do, in the big picture. Angst about landfills is misplaced; as someone said, this is purely a NIMBY issue, not a "real" problem or threat. Most of what you mention are hydrocarbon products; "throwing them away" is no more wasteful than burning hydrocarbons in your car. Over the next 100 years the easy-to-lift supplies will be used up, and the cost of what remains will be such this resource will be substituted for energy and materials. The energy is likely to come from nukes; the materials from bio products.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Slight threadjack, in letter but not spirit. The following is from Vella’s “Doomsday” thread, in which she worried, “What can I do” about what, as many do, she sees as “existential threats” to our – society? civilization? species? It’s usualy not specified.

"What can I do?" - an essay by Roxanne

I can be conscientious about being a good and valuable person in the sphere of my own life, performing the duties and providing the emotional support that loved ones, colleagues and members of my community count on me for. I can be a reasonable and balanced person, which may make me a source of wisdom and stability in my community.

When I see a thing that needs doing in my community I can step up and do my share. (To cite a personal example example, when it snows I shovel the elderly neighbor's sidewalk, and even clear a path past the house of the lazy deadbeat, because it’s the mailman and schoolkids who will suffer. When retired it would be good to join the little old ladies who run the polling places.)

In short, I can live what philosophers call “the good life.” Doing so makes me an asset to the community I live in – the world I actually inhabit – rather than a liability. Vella, if anyone on this board is there, I have to think it is you.


Now I must get a bit political: When there is an emergency or a tragedy within our sphere of influence, good citizens like those described above do the things they can to fix what’s broken, heal the afflicted and comfort the bereaved. One of the novel features of the modern world is that makes us powerfully aware of events beyond our sphere of influence, including distant emergencies and tragedies. This novel experience creates a psychological tension that is hard to resolve. It can create guilt, which most of us on a porn board would agree is not a healthy emotion, at least when cut off from objective personal offences (stealing my brother’s candy.)

There are good ways and bad ways to deal with this tension, and I believe finding the good comes back to reason and balance. It is reasonable to send $20 or $100 to an effective charity after the distant hurricane or tsunami; but not to shirk your own commitments to rush off and join the relief effort because of some misplaced guilt (you didn’t cause the hurricane, or even build the city on the floodplain.)


Moving to a more abstract level (and probably more political), the economic system by which we live is industrial civilization. It’s a huge new thing in the world that has brought awesome benefits – abundant food; modern medicine; well-appointed,climate controlled homes along with many other material goods; convenient short and long distance transportation (cars and airplanes); less dangerous and more interesting jobs; and much more.

It has also brought costs – pollution, mainly, and social costs – and being a new thing in the world we are still learning how to eliminate or minimize these costs. And we are learning: Every generation advances in this sphere, assisted by the growing wealth generated by greater knowledge in productive processes.

Nevertheless, we still in the “learning in progress” mode, and like the hurricane example above, the costs of industrial civilization can generate guilt in individuals. More easily even, because we do benefit from processes that create (ever smaller amounts of) pollution. And like the hurricane example, there ways to respond to the awareness of these things which are reaonable and balanced, and ways that are not.

I believe that wanting to escape the current processes of industrial civilization, or to set oneself up as an “island” outside of them is not a reasonable or balanced response. An intrinsic element of industrial civilization is the use of very large amounts of energy. The “current process” for much of this is burning fossil fuels. This particular process will be substituted with others over the next century (the most plausible alternative is an electric economy with nuclear power, which is becoming much safer and cleaner, but the details are for a different thread.) Odds are the transition will not be characterized by the “doomsday” scenarios marketed by individuals or groups who benefit from the widespread belief in such scenarios. There is nothing that requires it to be traumatic, and assuming extaordinary personal costs or sacrifices to "go outside" the current process is not reasonable or balanced.

Industrial civilization’s role in our lives is an objective and “coercive” fact – it’s there, and we can’t escape it. A rational person wouldn’t want to escape it – who wants to trade our lives for the terror, lack of comfort and drudgery that characterized those of our ancestors? (A simple wisdom tooth extraction promised the horrors of the damned.)


So what’s my recommendation to you, and others here? Relax. Be a good wife, mother, colleague and member of your community, and don’t feel guilty about things that are beyond your sphere.

Sure, send $20 to the tsunami. Sure, turn down the thermostat to 68 in winter, use a little less AC in the summer (especially during the peak hours of 3-7 pm – your house can coast for four hours), get a minivan instead of a Suburban, etc. Recycle if it makes you feel good, but in the big picture it's mostly meaningles (and making a cult of it can actually waste resources.) But don’t feel guilty about not going off to cleanse the sores of Ebola victims in some third world hellhole, or not living on the land growing organic crops with a windmill and mule.

Be reasonable, be balanced, honor your commitments to the people in your life, seek the good life, and pursue your own happiness. In my view, that is the greatest contribution you or any of us can make to the world.

 

[SeaCat]

See my next post. Short answer: Yes, I do, in the big picture. Angst about landfills is misplaced; as someone said, this is purely a NIMBY issue, not a "real" problem or threat. Most of what you mention are hydrocarbon products; "throwing them away" is no more wasteful than burning hydrocarbons in your car. Over the next 100 years the easy-to-lift supplies will be used up, and the cost of what remains will be such this resource will be substituted for energy and materials. The energy is likely to come from nukes; the materials from bio products.

Angst about landfills is misplaced? How so? Have you seen the studies about the txins that leach out of these same landfills into the ground water? How long does it tke for that styrofoam container or the used diaper to decompose? What is released into the ground water when these decompose?

Yes NIMBY is a problem, but it is an understandable response. Who wants arsenic and other poisons released into their groundwater?

There are cures to the problems though.

The first step is recycling.

Another step is, as I've mentioned above, the use of Plasma Generators. (Look them up. They are fascinating.)

Another step is education. Where do you think plastics come from? They are made from Petroleum Products. Petroleum is known to be a limited resource. It is also expensive and some of it's products are known to be dangerous. If we teach people to either limit their use of these products, or to turn them in for re-use. This limits the amount of the original product we need to use.

Another step is incentives. Make it worth while for people to recycle. In many states this is being tried with the five cent returns on cans and bottles. (Yet not here in Florida.) Make it something that is worth while for people. (Here in Florida recycling is not mandatory. I could very easily throw everything in my trash cans and nothing would be said.)

As for your comments that recycling is not worth it, again I would love to see the numbers which allow you to say this.

Cat

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Angst about landfills is misplaced? How so? Have you seen the studies about the txins that leach out of these same landfills into the ground water? How long does it tke for that styrofoam container or the used diaper to decompose? What is released into the ground water when these decompose?

Yes NIMBY is a problem, but it is an understandable response. Who wants arsenic and other poisons released into their groundwater?

There are cures to the problems though.

The first step is recycling.

Another step is, as I've mentioned above, the use of Plasma Generators. (Look them up. They are fascinating.)

Another step is education. Where do you think plastics come from? They are made from Petroleum Products. Petroleum is known to be a limited resource. It is also expensive and some of it's products are known to be dangerous. If we teach people to either limit their use of these products, or to turn them in for re-use. This limits the amount of the original product we need to use.

Another step is incentives. Make it worth while for people to recycle. In many states this is being tried with the five cent returns on cans and bottles. (Yet not here in Florida.) Make it something that is worth while for people. (Here in Florida recycling is not mandatory. I could very easily throw everything in my trash cans and nothing would be said.)

As for your comments that recycling is not worth it, again I would love to see the numbers which allow you to say this.

Cat

Re. the pollution problems you cite for landfills: Yes, where that happens it is a concern. A modern, properly designed and managed landfill does not have those problems.

I have no problem with deposits on bottles and cans. It eliminates a litter problem. It does impose a real burden on retailers (including pest problems), but on balance it's OK.

I think I dealt with the petroleum issue. Let me add to my previous point, about when it has become sufficiently expensive it will be substituted. I think that in the future, several hundred or thousands of years from now, our landfills will be 'mined.' If petroleum is the equivalent of $5,000/barrel in real terms 2,000 years from now, and specialized uses have been discovered in which it is an ingredient and still economical, that would provide the incentive, to get the plastics for the hydrocarbons.

As far as recycling, if it was worth it no subsidies or mandates would be needed. Buyers would pay enough for your stuff to cause it all to be recycled. 21st C "tinkers" would come around and collect the stuff that's inconvenient to sell yourself.

 

[hmmnmm]

Al Gore was a featured character in last night's dreams. He'd bought a house next door and was moving his stuff in, for some reason hanging paintings on the outside walls like an inverted gallery. We didn't talk, but he wasn't outright unfriendly, which surprised me. I felt some discomfort because if he found out I never watched his movie or read any of his books, that I'd never get invited over, but then I doubt he's read any of my stuff or listened to my music so we're pretty even, I reckon. Figured we'd end up amicable neighbors who didn't have much to say to each other. Also got the impression he was more of a fun-loving guy than he appears to be on television.

Other than that, I don't consciously do anything for the sake of the environment, however probably a lot of environmentalists who would review my life over the last thirty years might be surprised that I do not consider myself one of them. Although I've loved and still love many of them, dearly.