How do I take criticism?

[El Folo]

I'm never satisfied with what I write. It's too short, and it just feels amateur. If you hold up my shit and Stephen King's shit, I feel you'll be able to tell whose shit comes from bulls.

The only problem is, when I do get critique(honest critique, not just "I love it" or "it sucked"), I can't help but defend anything I put in the story, and anything I didn't put in the story. Like in "On the Road Again" (To date my only story on Literotica), someone brought up a valid point, and somewhere in my mind I recognized what he pointed out, and said,

"Oh, thank you, that actually is a little bit of a plot hole, isn't it?"

But see, then, as always does, another part of my brain said something that at the time seemed equally valid. It said,

"FUCK. YOU."

Needless to say, the latter won out, and while I never curse anyone out who has questions or criticisms, I had a defense ready. But, I don't really want to always have a defense ready, I want to learn how to improve my writing so it isn't quite so godawful. So, is there any way to do that?

Oh, but also, how do you wade the genuine criticism from the stuff that really wouldn't help your story? I'm aware that this post is a form of headbutting the wall, but that's a great American passtime, so I'm sticking to it.

 

[sr71plt]

What were your motivations for posting the story? Maybe they weren't really what you thought they were.

 

[El Folo]

Well, being a horror nut, I wasn't to at least subtly creep someone out. One person, I'd be happy.

Other than that, I wanted to see what people thought. On the scale of good to garbage, I wanted to see where I stood.

 

[JackLuis]

Let it ride for a while and make up your own mind about it's "quality".

I have found that "it's good" or "It sucked" is about the range of comments you get, very little literary criticism will come from comments, so you have to read between the lines.

Even on AH, you'll get little literary criticism, or pointers. For all the discussion of what there is to discuss here very little is actually oriented to writing and even less to helping newb's.

The good news is, you're on your own, the bad news is, you're on your own. Be your own worst critic, then you have no defense.

 

[PennLady]

Well, being a horror nut, I wasn't to at least subtly creep someone out. One person, I'd be happy.

Other than that, I wanted to see what people thought. On the scale of good to garbage, I wanted to see where I stood.

If you want criticism, seriously, you have to be open to it. I seem to be one of a small group of writers that wants people to beta read and poke holes and find problems. A number of writers -- and I've edited/beta read some -- don't want much besides praise, or a correction of their mechanical errors. You can't say you want reaction and critiques and then get defensive when you receive it.

Of course you worked on your story, and you put in what you wanted and hopefully got to the goal you wanted -- but sometimes, it doesn't work as well as you hoped.

Pardon the broken record, but feedback on Literotica is a) sporadic and b) not peer review. If you want editing, you'll need to poke around and find someone to edit and work on a relationship. What do you want, what do you need, and what can they give you?

If you have a plot hole, fix it. That doesn't mean your story is ruined, it just means it needs more work.

It's hard for me to say how you get over this block, because it's never been a block for me. Maybe you need to recognize that just because you threw in everything you wanted, that doesn't mean you did it right. Hell, I rewrote Chapter 5 of Numbers Game at least twice, and I think Chapter 7 or 8 had multiple do-overs as well. What did I get out of it? A better story.

Realize that the criticism and critiques can make you a better writer, then use them to that end.

 

[sr71plt]

I think a problem is that the feedback is so often peer review. Often a matter of the blind leading the blind.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I'm never satisfied with what I write. It's too short, and it just feels amateur. If you hold up my shit and Stephen King's shit, I feel you'll be able to tell whose shit comes from bulls.

The only problem is, when I do get critique(honest critique, not just "I love it" or "it sucked"), I can't help but defend anything I put in the story, and anything I didn't put in the story. Like in "On the Road Again" (To date my only story on Literotica), someone brought up a valid point, and somewhere in my mind I recognized what he pointed out, and said,

"Oh, thank you, that actually is a little bit of a plot hole, isn't it?"

But see, then, as always does, another part of my brain said something that at the time seemed equally valid. It said,

"FUCK. YOU."

Needless to say, the latter won out, and while I never curse anyone out who has questions or criticisms, I had a defense ready. But, I don't really want to always have a defense ready, I want to learn how to improve my writing so it isn't quite so godawful. So, is there any way to do that?

Oh, but also, how do you wade the genuine criticism from the stuff that really wouldn't help your story? I'm aware that this post is a form of headbutting the wall, but that's a great American passtime, so I'm sticking to it.

Hi, EF. Your attitude toward your work is normal. I am never fully satisfied with what I write, and I doubt anybody else is either. There is always the feeling I should have said something else or done another edit, or otherwise did more than I was satisfied with. I also get somewhat defensive about even constructive criticism, even when I know it's right.

The way to improve your writing is to do more of it. Personally, I look back now on stories I posted five years ago or so and say something like: "My god, how could I have turned in a piece of crap like that?" Of course, nobody else better say that about my work.

 

[sr71plt]

Hmmm. I usually like how my stories turn out better than I thought I would.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

If you want criticism, seriously, you have to be open to it. I seem to be one of a small group of writers that wants people to beta read and poke holes and find problems. A number of writers -- and I've edited/beta read some -- don't want much besides praise, or a correction of their mechanical errors. You can't say you want reaction and critiques and then get defensive when you receive it.

This is excellent advice. (And so were the parts I trimmed to save bandwidth.)

I teach for a living---not writing, but mathematics. The students who do poorly by and large say they want my help. But what they really want is my approval (without having to work for it).

What they don't recognize is that "help" means "criticism". (And, initially at least, less than optimal grades). But, largely, they do not want criticism. (Especially if that criticism involves a suggestion that they work harder. This is relevant here because writing well is hard work.)

It's very natural to respond to criticism defensively. Recognize that and resolve to analyze the criticism you get carefully, in spite of your defenses. This means you must discipline yourself.

Some of the criticism you get will be bullshit; you'll know it when it pisses you off, but you can give a good defense for what you've done. Some of it will not be bullshit; you'll know it when it really pisses you off because you can't find a good way to defend what you did. The catch is that you have to learn to be honest with yourself about the difference between a good defense and a rationalization. That's the hard part (Damn! More discipline!), and it's the most rewarding part.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think a problem is that the feedback is so often peer review. Often a matter of the blind leading the blind.

Here we go again.

No one has to be a qualified editor or professional writer or work in the publishing industry to say "liked it, didn't like it"

Many people reading here have been here for a long time and I think are qualified to render an opinion. If someone has read hundreds of stories here I would welcome their opinions.

What you should remember is people like this are who are buying your e-books maybe you should post somewhere how unqualified they are to read your work.

El Folo is obviously a horror fan as am I. From the time I was until now I can't count the stories/books I've read or the movies I 've seen. I think I am qualified to say "you know that was pretty could, I liked it because or That was pretty lame here is why.

Unfortunately what you will, as someone else here said, get is either the overly effusive "you're the best ever!" or the "you suck you sick freak!"

However in between I and others have recieved some more thoughtful comments.

For example if you want to go slumming here is a link to comments off of one of my chapters. It is 38 meaning I won't get a lot of negeative as this is "core audience" but read through these. People are following the plot and thinkig through they are not one sentence beavis and butthead remarks.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/members/comments_moderate.php?id=546685

Course everyone here knows the reason you always insult everyone else's right to criticize is that you think you're the only one that can. More of your ego being used to put others down.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Back in the early 70s I spent 4 years learning how to make patterns on sheet metal. Some of its simple but most patterns are complex; its pure geometry where the rubber meets the road. But there's method to the madness, and if you perform each step correctly, things come out okay at the end.

Consequently there's no need for scolding and ridicule. My teacher knew where to look for errors, found them, pointed them out, and demonstrated how to fix things.

Most activities come with a tried & true process for success. Student, master, and critics need to know the way. If they know the way there's no need for ridicule, you simply note the error and move on.

 

[Spacefender]

Hi, EF. Your attitude toward your work is normal.

Very true. I think most of us have that feeling of not being a very good writer but still aren't able to take criticism from others without feeling defensive about it. Or rather, the more we are unsure of our own abilities, the more we feel defensive about any criticism we receive.

For me, how I react to criticism depends on the spirit in which it's given. One of the harshest critiques I've received is the one I probably appreciate the most because the person who gave it took the time to really break down the story and show me elements that really needed improving.

When someone takes the time to give you an honest and thoughtful critique, appreciate it. They didn't have to and most people won't take the time to do that.

Finally, I'm going to echo some previous statements in this thread. Literotica is not the best place if you're looking for honest and detailed critiques of your stories. Though you'll probably have some luck if you post to Story Feedback.

 

[PennLady]

It does help, of course, if the editor or reviewer points out what's wrong. Such as "I don't think Sarah would say 'I hate you' because so far she's given no indication that she would ever say such a thing out loud."

One thing you should look at -- and a lot of people do this -- is look at your story and see if you're forcing your characters into situations that don't fit. I've seen a lot of stories where the writers are determined that X or Y will happen, no matter what else is going on. So they will make their characters meet up on the top floor of a building when one of them is afraid of heights or something -- a silly example but I think you get what I mean.

And again, criticism doesn't mean your story is bad. It just means parts of it need work.

 

[AmberRoseThompson]

One thing I keep in mind is that when my editor gives me critique he does it because he thinks I do have merit and wants to bring that out better. Critique that guides to improvement means the person wants to help you improve.

 

[theblackflame]

Although I just officially signed up because I am going to take the plunge and start trying my hand at story telling myself, I would like to chime in as someone who has been reading and commenting here as the infamous "any mouse". Since 2008

I, myself try to make thoughtful comments in both negative and positive situations. If I like it, I take a second to say why, "Great character development" or "nice attention to detail"

When I dislike it I say why as well, but try to give them some hope l such as. "Great premise, but need some help with grammar" or "Good idea, but the characters seem shallow"

I have read enough feedback to know that the average person does not do that which is a shame.

I also take offense to the poster saying no one here has the right to critique. I know whether or not I like a story and feedback was put in place to give me the chance to voice that opinion.

What the author needs to know is that what I say is strictly my opinion and needs to make up their minds of how serious they would like to take me. Although I post anon. on the site when I e-mail feedback I leave a return address and have found many authors quite receptive to constructive feedback and have had many interesting discussions with some of them.

It is like the adage "Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean" People are receptive to other reasonable people. It is the "you suck" trolls that give feedback a bad rap and make it so others are not taken seriously.

 

[LucyH]

Yeah, my knee jerk reaction has been to get defensive as well, but the more experience I get responding to constructive criticism, the easier it gets. I see how much better my writing gets when I take advice, and I like it.

(And there's no rule that says you can't consider constructive criticism after you've said whatever defensive thing it is that you want to say.)

 

[MicKay]

I read it, let it hurt my feelings, vow to quit, and then come back some time later with an appreciation for anything I could understand from the criticism. But I've learned to read it and walk away before reacting.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Very true. I think most of us have that feeling of not being a very good writer but still aren't able to take criticism from others without feeling defensive about it. Or rather, the more we are unsure of our own abilities, the more we feel defensive about any criticism we receive.

For me, how I react to criticism depends on the spirit in which it's given. One of the harshest critiques I've received is the one I probably appreciate the most because the person who gave it took the time to really break down the story and show me elements that really needed improving.

When someone takes the time to give you an honest and thoughtful critique, appreciate it. They didn't have to and most people won't take the time to do that.

Finally, I'm going to echo some previous statements in this thread. Literotica is not the best place if you're looking for honest and detailed critiques of your stories. Though you'll probably have some luck if you post to Story Feedback.

Boot camp immunizes most people to any future criticism about anything. Drill sergeants find every blemish and almost blemish, and make a BIG DEAL of it publicly. On one occasion the fold in a handkerchief faced the wrong way in my foot locker, and I then went before the whole outfit to freely confess my porcucine ancestry and OINK for several minutes.

 

[estragon]

Boot camp immunizes most people to any future criticism about anything. Drill sergeants find every blemish and almost blemish, and make a BIG DEAL of it publicly. On one occasion the fold in a handkerchief faced the wrong way in my foot locker, and I then went before the whole outfit to freely confess my porcucine ancestry and OINK for several minutes.

JBJ, does that bring back memories! Doing push-ups in a sandpit at dear ol' Fo't Jackson South Ca-lina while some asshole acting jack with three PX stripes yells "Ya look like a monkey fuckin' a fo'ball!" After that, who gives a fuck about trolls.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

<snip> and somewhere in my mind I recognized what he pointed out, and said,

"Oh, thank you, that actually is a little bit of a plot hole, isn't it?"

But see, then, as always does, another part of my brain said something that at the time seemed equally valid. It said,

"FUCK. YOU."

Needless to say, the latter won out <snip>

It might help to accept that it's OK to feel both things, to want to curse while at the same time recognizing your own faults. You're human, and humans have egos. Perhaps if you accept that it's OK to think FUCK. YOU. in the back of your mind, you'll be able to better accept the criticism?

When I dislike it I say why as well, but try to give them some hope l such as. "Great premise, but need some help with grammar" or "Good idea, but the characters seem shallow"

See, this wouldn't help me much. If I've submitted, say, a fourteen thousand word story and you tell me I need help with grammar, it might help if you point out the mistakes I'm making. If there are a ton of mistakes, point out a few (i.e., you are confusing "that" and "which", you need to spell out your numbers, your comma goes before the quotation mark in dialogue, etc). Otherwise, I won't know where to start.

And if I wrote the characters, then chances are they don't seem shallow to me; you need to tell me why they seem shallow, since apparently, the full characters in my mind are not translating to the page. Is there a particular interaction you can point to? A trait? A thought? Give me something to work with, and that will help me as I work through the story once more or turn to my next project.

Contrast your advice to PennLady's advice about Sarah, and you can see the difference.

It does help, of course, if the editor or reviewer points out what's wrong. Such as "I don't think Sarah would say 'I hate you' because so far she's given no indication that she would ever say such a thing out loud."

With that advice, I could actually work on the troubling spots.

What they don't recognize is that "help" means "criticism". (And, initially at least, less than optimal grades). But, largely, they do not want criticism. (Especially if that criticism involves a suggestion that they work harder. This is relevant here because writing well is hard work.)

<snip>

Some of the criticism you get will be bullshit; you'll know it when it pisses you off, but you can give a good defense for what you've done. Some of it will not be bullshit; you'll know it when it really pisses you off because you can't find a good way to defend it. The catch is that you have to learn to be honest with yourself about the difference between a good defense and a rationalization. That's the hard part (Damn! More discipline!), and it's the most rewarding part.

I think this is good advice.

Or rather, the more we are unsure of our own abilities, the more we feel defensive about any criticism we receive.

As is this. I think there's a thin line between having enough confidence to accept criticism, and having so much that you aren't able to. I find that humble confidence works best.

I read it, let it hurt my feelings, vow to quit, and then come back some time later with an appreciation for anything I could understand from the criticism. But I've learned to read it and walk away before reacting.

As is this.

I received a really long email from a reader a while back. At first, I was really annoyed with his feedback, and wanted to fire off pissy reply. I sat on it for a while, and realized that he had valid points that I'd overlooked, and sent a thoughtful email back to him, with vows to address his points in an upcoming chapter. But man, that was hard.

 

[theblackflame]

See, this wouldn't help me much. If I've submitted, say, a fourteen thousand word story and you tell me I need help with grammar, it might help if you point out the mistakes I'm making. If there are a ton of mistakes, point out a few (i.e., you are confusing "that" and "which", you need to spell out your numbers, your comma goes before the quotation mark in dialogue, etc). Otherwise, I won't know where to start. And if I wrote the characters, then chances are they don't seem shallow to me; you need to tell me why they seem shallow, since apparently, the full characters in my mind are not translating to the page. Is there a particular interaction you can point to? A trait? A thought? Give me something to work with, and that will help me as I work through the story once more or turn to my next project.

I should have added that I follow up all of my public comments with more specific e-mails. I don't like to leave extremely long comments on the public board. I would say about two thirds of the authors respond to my positive remarks. As you can imagine far less respond to any critique

It is ironic that many authors complain about the "Fuck you, you suck!" comments, but trust me I have had authors reply "Fuck what you think" back to me if I point out what I feel could have made their story more enjoyable.

Like everything else in life feedback works both ways and sometimes the authors can be just as ignorant as the trolls they despise.

For example several weeks ago, I sent a feedback to an author that has not posted a chapter n months. I was reading his update which said he was busy editing another of the site's authors work and would finish his when he was done. I emailed him a comment about the last chapter I read( a positive one) then finished by saying that I felt it was foolish to put someone's work in front of your own (for free anyway)

His response was that I was a fucking bitch for calling him a fool (I did not call him that) and that I, like all other cowards, was hiding behind the net and luckily for me, he could not find out who I was or he would show me no one should fuck with him.

Cute. Obviously an anomaly here, but still real cute. Especially as I signed my name and he knew he was threatening a woman. So it's not always worth it for the reader to take the time many authors claim they would like us to.

 

[sr71plt]

Yes, well, when you send unsolicited negative comment, you can expect negative response from story authors who weren't posting because they wanted a writing "lesson" from some stranger.

What most are looking for--especially those who haven't asked for a critique--are a connection with likeminded folks and affirmation. That's just the reality of it.

 

[theblackflame]

Yes, well, when you send unsolicited negative comment, you can expect negative response from story authors who weren't posting because they wanted a writing "lesson" from some stranger.

What most are looking for--especially those who haven't asked for a critique--are a connection with likeminded folks and affirmation. That's just the reality of it.

But there is a far cry from "you suck" to someone pointing something out in a respectful adult manner. I always throw in the positive as well.

The "reality" of it is that many authors in their notes to the readers and their bio pages all but beg for feedback. Feedback and comments "appreciated". So remarks are by far not unsolicited. If a writer truly does not wish comments they will disable that feature.

What it comes down to is it is human nature to bask in the "you're the best ever" but to want to think "hey look you could make this better" is of course totally mistaken.

 

[sr71plt]

But there is a far cry from "you suck" to someone pointing something out in a respectful adult manner.

Not really. Unsolicited vigilante criticism is more about the ego of the criticizer than about the story criticized.

If they specifically, directly ask for criticism, yes. Even there, though, you are deluding yourself in thinking most of them want negative criticism. This is a pleasure-driven reading site, not a creative writing site.

You usually don't know this author from Adam/Eve. You might ask yourself--honestly--why you are giving a critique that wasn't requested to begin with. If you're honest, I suggest the answer will have more to do with you than with this unknown author.

 

[beatrice_dreams]

Oh, but also, how do you wade the genuine criticism from the stuff that really wouldn't help your story?

I think I've been pretty lucky with some of the feedback I've received in the past - its been helpful and really hit on things that needed changing.

At the end of the day, even the average Joe instinctively knows what entertains them and what elements should be present in a story. However, they often aren't able to articulate exactly what they think needs changing if there's something wrong/missing though.

Regardless of who gives you the criticism, I think you can trust it if it connects with something in your own mind that you weren't entirely happy with/bothered you when you were writing it - even if it was just on a subconscious level. We all have parts of our stories we know aren't quite right but at a certain point we just have to move on and finish the story anyway in hopes it will come out in the wash. If the criticism homes in on that sort of thing, I tend to do something about it - you noticed it and the reader noticed it, so it needs to be dealt with.

And at the end of the day, while there is a definite 'doh!' moment when you realise you got it wrong, there also has to be the great satisfaction of making it right and making it better.