How did this case get to court? (Lawyer & teachers comment please.)http://www.law.co

[Weird Harold]

How did this case get to court? (Lawyer & teachers comment please.)http://www.law.co

http://www.law.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/A...pc=0&pa=0&s=News&ExpIgnore=true&showsummary=0

Partial C&P from the linked article:
---
A dispute in the U.S. Supreme Court over students' grading each other's tests and homework papers may emerge as the "sleeper" case of the term with potential ramifications for much civil rights litigation.

The Court is asked whether allowing students to grade one another's classwork while the teacher reads the answers aloud violates a federal law that bans the release of "education records." Owasso Independent School District v. Falvo, No. 00-1073, to be argued Nov. 27.

The federal Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act has been on the books since 1974, but the justices are examining it for the first time.

The challenge appears to require the justices to engage in a classic exercise of statutory interpretation: Are student-graded homework and classroom work "educational records" under the law?

---

Teachers: How will an adverse ruling affect the way you manage your classrooms.

Lawyers: Can you explain how such a trivial issue got to any federal court, let alone the US Supreme Court?

Everyone else: Comments?

 

[Siren]

It is not trivial, even if it appears at first glance to be

 

[Guest]

edited

 

[lavender]

 

[Siren]

GOOD topic WH my man.

 

[Calamity Jane]

As someone with absolutely no legal knowledge, this bothers me. Does it open the school districts/teachers that have used this form of grading to lawsuits?

If I remember an embarrassing moment when someone graded a spelling test and I did poorly on it, and they made fun of me, can I go back and sue the school or teacher now that the action has been deemed against the law? Or is this a case of 'it used to be ok, but now it's not'?

I don't see any problems with students grading each other's tests. I also see no problem with students seeing other's grades.

Would it have been a violation when my AP Science teacher in high school pulled me aside and told me that one student was having serious problems with the Cell Biology and Genetics portions of the classes, and asked me to tutor him? The kid never would have asked for help on his own, but because the teacher chose to address the problem, the kid did ok and managed to maintain the AP status required for the scholarship he needed.

So I guess the question is, where's the line?

 

[Siren]

No Pagancow moo you can not go back and sue

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: It is not trivial, even if it appears at first glance to be

it is the age old problem of Federal law vs State Law and which takes precedent....

and it about what qualifies as an educational record for privacy rights and for evidentuary rules in court.
...
If those qualify as privacy violations then the teacher and the school, school district can be liable for all sorts of lawsuits from privacy violation actions...and emotional distress actions etc....

so drawing a clear line in the sand will eliminate all that bullshit.

Does that clear it up?

No, not really. I read the full article and another article at the same site -- both explained the ramifications that extend beyond this one case.

What I don't understand, is why this mother chose to file suit over her learning disabled child being taunted and teased when there are so many other remedies available to her.

I did note a comment that the rutherford institute "took up her cause" and (IMHO) is blowing it out of proportion as a constitutional privacy issue. This is an issue of a teacher not maintianing control of her classroom and allowing the teasing and taunting to happen and a school administration that failed to respond to a parent's reasonable concerns about her child's welfare.

If the lower court ruling stands, things like Student of the month, honor societies, and similar acknowledgements of achievement could conceivably be banned also. (Or so alleges the article.)

I'm sure that the law needs to be challenged, but this particular case should have been thrown out as a waste of taxpayer dollars by the first judge to see it.

BTW, neither article I read on this case makes any mention of "moolah" being involved, just the cessation of the practice of swapping papers for grading.

Enchanted said:
In all my years of teaching, I've never practiced that type of grading. Treating all students fairly was much more important to me than trying to get "work" finished in a more timely manner. What I found to be most true was that privacy for students is a very necessary thing and one that is not practiced all that frequently in the classroom.

This was a very common practice throughout my schooling (back in the dark ages) and I never saw it as being done to ease the workload of the teacher. Rather I always saw it as providing more timely feedback to the students so their failings could be covered. Granted, we seldom called out the scores so only the student who checked the answers knew what I scored. I NEVER experienced this practice applied to essay questions -- only spelling lists and multiple guess quizzes.

Both of may daughters and my eldest granddaughter have all experienced this practice as well. (My younger daughter is learning disabled, BTW) None of them see anything wrong with the practice or have had any problems with it.

If they had experienced problems with this or any other "invasion of privacy" I doubt very much that I would have allowed the courts to get involved or let it go to the Supreme Court if it did go to the court system.

Of course, having spent 21 years dealing with the military bureaucracy, I generally get results from recalcitrant bureaucrats without resorting to legal assistance. I have very little sympathy with parents who do need legal assistance to deal with teachers and administrators.

 

[LadyDarkFire]

With this case, I think they are talking about Teacher's Aids, PCG, and the fact that alot of teachers (at least at the High School I went to) use these aids to grade papers, balance grade books, and this means that the select students get looks into parts of another student's transcripts. I was a TA for 3 out of the 4 years of my student life and I can tell you, as certain Aid positions, I had access to WAY too much information for a student. As a Councling Office Aid, I had access to fellow students' entire school records, IEP Forms, 504 testing, and Mental Health records in a private room with plenty of time to read them. I was set to shreading documents without supervision, and this was personal and private information. I also wrote passes to get people out of class, and had a stamp of signitures for all the councelors. As a Nurse's Office Aid (2 out of the 3 years) I had access to Medical records, had a daily job of transcribing highly personal information into the database, had the support group rosters with me, and helped run them, and I was also responsible for the password to the computer and alot of things having to do with it, including keeping it running and updated with information you would only expect the nurse to see. I, again, wrote out passes, and this time, my signiture was all that the teachers needed for admitting a kid back into class. As a PE TA (Teacher's Aid) I was in the office with all the grading, would often go through reports, grade them, record them, and figure out the grades on grade master. I was responsible for attendance, doctor's notes, and other such Private information. I was, once again, responsible for hall passes, and this time, the teacher put me completely in charge, they would be written at my discression, and my signiture was as good as the teachers, again. I was also the one that the students would ultimately come to with personal problems, and I had alot of access to the database (Again, I was the one who knew how to run the computer). I was allowed to pull more terms of Aid than I should have had by district policy (You are only allowed 2 terms of TA, and never with the same teacher, I did 4, and the nurse had me twice), because the teachers and administration knew that I was responsible. I'm glad this issue is getting addressed, because there is alot of blabbering that goes on, and for certain students, I found out that a fellow TA (in the Councling office) was telling ALL of their transcripts around the school, and I had to turn the person in. It still got around school, and the student ultimately transfered into a private school, because the Trauma of having everyone know his personal life was too much.

 

[Siren]

I doubt very much that this mother isnt suing

 

[RisiaSkye]

This is a tough call. On one hand, I'm all for the right to privacy. On the other hand, in the case of public schools for minors, it gets really tricky in a variety of ways.

As I see it, here are the big questions:

First: is the right to privacy equally applied to minors as adults?

Second: is this an issue of federal jurisdiction or state mandate?

Third: are public schools under different sets of requirements than private? This links to the state/fed question also.

Fourth: what can be called "privacy protected" documents?

Fifth: what do we consider "reasonable" attempts to keep information confidential?

Is a single quiz a sealed record? I don't think so, as it doesn't have anything more than transitory impact on the student's grade, class standing, etc. But, I gotta agree with WH--this never should have reached this level.

The paranoia about children being teased has reached epidemic levels since Columbine and Santana. I think we're missing the point, profoundly. Kids get teased. It's part of childhood. In case you don't remember, kids are cruel. But that's not what's new, teenagers with shotguns are the new thing. We live in the environment we create.

Instead of dealing with our own failings as the adults responsible for teaching children (in various roles) how to behave, we attempt to legislate niceness. Isn't that what this is really about? Making sure that the kids who struggle academically (or who excel, musn't forget the social stigma of high performance) don't get teased? Wouldn't we be better off teaching in a cooperative learning environment, and working to foster understanding of individual differences, rather than legislating a broad-band "don't ask, don't tell" policy for even the most inconsequential of education-related documents?

Sometimes we are so stupid, as a species, it actually hurts.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: I doubt very much that this mother isnt suing

Only the ACLU does that or some other special interest group......
but an individual........wants

M-O-N-E-Y.

Bet there is money behind this.

I'd take that bet. The Rutherford Institute is backing this suit, and they make the ACLU look like petty despots.

LadyDarkFire, This case is about "Trade papers with the student next to you" to correct pop quizzes and then reproting the score to the teacher when called on so the whole class can hear it.

 

[Siren]

I bet the initial suit before backing was for money

 

[LadyDarkFire]

Re: Re: I doubt very much that this mother isnt suing

LadyDarkFire, This case is about "Trade papers with the student next to you" to correct pop quizzes and then reproting the score to the teacher when called on so the whole class can hear it.

Color Me Embarrassed, but the issue should be brought up in my opinion. It's my opinion that you have the right to expect that the teacher is the one doing the grading.

 

[Moridin187]

Siren, you never know. When I was struggling in high school due to bad attendance because of sleeping problems my mom wanted to sue the entire school district. Not because of the money. It happens sometimes, mothers get filled with this righteous fury and they lay waste to anyone who is messing with their kid.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: I bet the initial suit before backing was for money

backers take it up for lobbying of causes........
but the womans lawsuit was for MOOLAH>

And the others are taking it on as a cause celeb.

Find out if you could please Harold.

I would be very curious to see.

Thanks.

Neither of the articles at law.com mention anything about money.

You're more likely to know how to access the actual case (Owasso Independent School District v. Falvo, No. 00-1073) than I am. I had to search for fifteen minutes just to find the two articles I read after seeing it mentioned on HNN.

 

[Siren]

Might have to research for the underlying trial case

 

[ExLimey]

Part of me understands this a little the other part of me asks what's next?

Suing because the teacher asked a question out loud and the student didn't know the answer. Thus he was embarrassed and the teacher violated his privacy!?

Once you draw any line, you create a grey area near that line. Then you start to 'ban' other things in progression. Where does it stop? (Shouldn't really get started)

 

[Guest]

edited

 

[Mischka]

Re: Might have to research for the underlying trial case

So the underlying case could be 2 or 3 cases behind this one.
this one only gives a summary of facts and underlying procedures......but wont give us the award that was sought or the remedy asked for.

Maybe our Law review students could do the research for us.

Well, this case is just a mess. Found eight decisions on this case, half of them later withdrawn and reported elsewhere. Couldn't find specific numbers, but plaintiff did seek both monetary and injuntive relief at the trial level (District Court for the Northern District of Oklahoma). The district court granted summary judgment against both, and the Court of Appeals affirmed summary judgment for monetary but reversed for injunctive (claiming that the practice was not unconstitutional but that it violated FERPA). That's when the Rutherford Institute took up the cause.

 

[morninggirl5]

WH,

I have known about this case for over a year. It was brought up in one of my grad school classes as a warning against allowing any person other than a student and his/her parents access to their educational records.

One point I'd like to make about this case, it probably got as far as it did because the student has a learning disability. The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) has very strict provisions concerning confidentiality.


I understand why teachers, particularly at higher levels use the swap papers method to grade quizzes. With 150 or even more students, they could easily spend 3 hours grading papers at night. From a student's standpoint, getting feedback immediately is also preferred.

My concern is with the potential extensions of this case. Student of the Week or Month and Honor Roll have been mentioned already. Will the prohibitions extend to any display of students' work? What about our classroom celebrations for students' success?

My students do not "grade" each other's papers. But we do cheer for those that have hair on their smiley faces.

Will I change any of my practices due to this lawsuit? Not until I'm given specific guidelines. This lawsuit reeks of the "don't do anything that will hurt their self-esteem" and "everyone succeeds no matter what" philosophies that I refuse to accept.

 

[SimplySouthern]

The problem as I see it

The legal system is open for "use" by any and every person without discrimination as to how many functional brain cells the individual person may have command of.

Second, we are living in a "sue happy" society. People base their claims on what they "heard from a friend" and also what they've seen in the media and believe to be the norm. This means that by the time they get to a lawyer's office...they are already of the midset that they have a multi-million dollar action to bring against some "wrongdoer".

For example, ask any attorney who practices personal injury law and they will tell you that after the Mconald's-hot-coffee awarding people rolled in off the funny farm truck claiming they had been scalded by hot coffee.

Often, the people that sue over seemingly ridiculous things are those that have no other life and have run from friend to friend telling them their story. Being friends, most people don't want to make fun of the other person and tell them how utterly ridiculous they are being, so they, in essence, egg them on into filing suit.

By the time they reach the lawyer's office they are convinced of the outcome and all of heaven and hell combined couldn't talk them out of filing suit. So you file the suit and hope you aren't made out to be a fool -- either way, that's what lawyers are there for.

 

[Siren]

Re: Re: Might have to research for the underlying trial case

 

[Weird Harold]

...
This lawsuit reeks of the "don't do anything that will hurt their self-esteem" and "everyone succeeds no matter what" philosophies that I refuse to accept.

This is the aspect of this case that bothers me the most -- If the Supreme Court upholds the appeals court decision, then it is virtually legislating that children must be protected from their peer's ridicule.

Test results will be known to fellow students. They may not be publically announced, but the student grapevine will find out and spread the info somehow. Instead of teaching children to deal with teasing and mockery, this precedent says we have to protect and coddle anyone who is different.

Both the teacher and the parent failed this boy in not helping him to deal with the teasing. Something a simple as praising him for improvement on a score that is lower than the other students but better than he had been doing would reinforce his self-esteem enough to deal with life.

Enchanted said:
What is right for someone else is not always right for another. We tend to forget that because sometimes we become hardened to the needs of others. What was good for you and your children, is not what is necessarily good for me or mine.

I have argued eslewhere, that school is functionally equivalent of a child's first "job" and part of the educational experience should be how to deal with life out from under a parent's protective wing.

I can't say that the practice in question was "good" for me and my children. I can say that it didn't harm any of us -- not even my learning disabled daughter who was in much the same circumstances as the subject of this case. She learned to accept that her best effort was all her teachers and I expectd from her, and that taunting from her peers was more an indication of their immaturity than it was an indication of her failings.

(I on the other hand, learned the folly of gloating and the bad effect it had on how I was perceived by my peers.)

What works for you and yours is indeed different from what works for me and mine. Hopefully what works is that all of us learn to deal with the bad parts of life as well as the good parts with good grace and self-respect intact.

 

[Siren]

Hey you didnt answer me WH