Honesty Vs. Transparency

[policywank]

So much of it does come back to judgment, something that many people lack in adequate measure.

Obviously Aspergers is a very specific condition that affects how you perceive the world and take in information. I’m not an expert and don’t claim to be do please forgive me if I’m characterizing it wrong. I just mean that it involves some degree of disconnect from social norms of how people respond. But what are social norms really aside from made up conventions?

As Nezhul noted there is a certain amount of lying that is, for lack of a better word, “normal”. It is how we get through life while managing our interactions and anxieties. The judgment comes in to when to use those lies and making sure that you are using them for the right reasons.

Where is the line between I lied because “Ididn’t want to hurt that person” vs “I lied to avoid owning up to my own actions”. It isn’t always as clear as we would like to imagine and sometimes selfish people use this excuse to let themselves off the hook.

The same happens with honesty. Where is the line between “I told you the truth because it was the right thing to do” and “I just say whatever I want no matter how hurtful and hide behind the notion of truthfulness.” Honesty is not the same thing as having a ready made excuse for being an asshole.

And we all value “niceness” in different degrees. Where is the point at which being nice drifts into making relations unproductive. In a work setting I generally think that civility is very important but I’ve seen it drift to the point that people can’t say what needs to be said.

In any event, I think judgment is required. And that is contextual. Virtue is more than a one dimensional view of honesty or transparency.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think you are one of my new favorite people and I'm dreadfully sorry we won't have more chance to talk.

I can't PM you, but happy to give you an email address if that would be helpful.

I don't have people like that irl who can just take me at face/word value. Here Autism carries a HUGE stigma that would not only affect **me** in my professional capacity, but also my children. Even if they end up NT it would be impossible to get them into schools, or later on in relationships. It is messed up, but true. So no one around me can know. I spend a goodly portion of my day just trying to not let anyone be aware. Last year was the first time anyone near me knew. Sadly, her life moved her away from me. Prior to the day before yesterday I had TWO people who understood. Today I'm down to zero .

Ugh, that's hard :-/

I'm lucky enough to work in a workplace that aims to be inclusive of neurodiversity, with an autism/Asperger's support group, and my obsessions/interests happen to be useful - I win employee awards and stuff. But when it comes to things like job applications, management systems, ... all those seem to be designed by and for NT folk, and I struggle with them.

And, yeah, passing takes so much energy. This is a big part of why I dislike the language of "high-functioning"/"low-functioning" autism. It classifies us according to how "burdensome" we are to the society around us (indeed, as I understand it the distinction originated in 1930s Germany where that was a life-or-death judgement) and not according to what it takes out of us to fit in.

We have laws that provide protection against discrimination based on race or gender and are thankfully starting to see improvements in other areas such as LGBTQ rights. So why then is it considered ok to discriminate based on other areas we have no control over such as autism, or for that matter any form of mental or physical difference.

Depending on where you are and on individual specifics, autism can fall under disability protections. However, I'm reluctant to invoke those for myself because it implies difference=disability. It's like saying a left-handed person is "disabled" because they have difficulty using tools that were designed solely for right-handers - it certainly is a situational disadvantage, but "disability" assigns that problem to the person, rather than the situation.

(Sorry, that's complex and I don't know how well I articulated it.)

Obviously Aspergers is a very specific condition that affects how you perceive the world and take in information. I’m not an expert and don’t claim to be do please forgive me if I’m characterizing it wrong. I just mean that it involves some degree of disconnect from social norms of how people respond. But what are social norms really aside from made up conventions?

As Nezhul noted there is a certain amount of lying that is, for lack of a better word, “normal”. It is how we get through life while managing our interactions and anxieties. The judgment comes in to when to use those lies and making sure that you are using them for the right reasons.

Noting that what counts as normal/acceptable lying (not necessarily the same thing!) isn't the same for everybody. I have less tolerance for it than most folk, partly because I need to know when there's a problem but also because I need to know when there isn't a problem. When somebody says "this is okay" I don't want to be solving a social Rubik's puzzle of "is it REALLY okay, or are they trying to spare my feelings?"

I'd also note that "made up conventions" are not to be dismissed lightly. Money is a made-up convention but if it suddenly disappeared we'd probably collapse into chaos. The fact that people in USA drive on the right-hand side of the road is also a made-up convention, but a very important one that allows y'all to get around without crashing into one another very often.

At the risk of stretching the metaphor... some countries drive on the left, and that works for them. Somebody from the USA shouldn't expect that the same convention will apply everywhere, and countries that drive on the left aren't inferior because their convention is different. When drivers from left-hand countries meet drivers from right-hand countries, somebody has to recognise and adjust to the difference in norms.

The same happens with honesty. Where is the line between “I told you the truth because it was the right thing to do” and “I just say whatever I want no matter how hurtful and hide behind the notion of truthfulness.” Honesty is not the same thing as having a ready made excuse for being an asshole.

Oh, absolutely. One of my pet peeves is people who invoke autism as an excuse for being a jerk. In my experience, most autistic people put a lot of effort into not hurting others, even if we sometimes struggle with how best to do that.

(It's one of the reasons I write here, even though writing sometimes feels like a huge effort - I'm very interested in exploring how people interact with one another.)

I've even seen some people take pride in being hurtfully "honest" to others, under a logic that goes something like this:

- autism = smart
- autism = rude
- the ruder I am, the smarter I must be

which is rubbish, but that doesn't stop people from doing it.

 

[policywank]

I can't PM you, but happy to give you an email address if that would be helpful.



Ugh, that's hard :-/

I'm lucky enough to work in a workplace that aims to be inclusive of neurodiversity, with an autism/Asperger's support group, and my obsessions/interests happen to be useful - I win employee awards and stuff. But when it comes to things like job applications, management systems, ... all those seem to be designed by and for NT folk, and I struggle with them.

And, yeah, passing takes so much energy. This is a big part of why I dislike the language of "high-functioning"/"low-functioning" autism. It classifies us according to how "burdensome" we are to the society around us (indeed, as I understand it the distinction originated in 1930s Germany where that was a life-or-death judgement) and not according to what it takes out of us to fit in.



Depending on where you are and on individual specifics, autism can fall under disability protections. However, I'm reluctant to invoke those for myself because it implies difference=disability. It's like saying a left-handed person is "disabled" because they have difficulty using tools that were designed solely for right-handers - it certainly is a situational disadvantage, but "disability" assigns that problem to the person, rather than the situation.

(Sorry, that's complex and I don't know how well I articulated it.)



Noting that what counts as normal/acceptable lying (not necessarily the same thing!) isn't the same for everybody. I have less tolerance for it than most folk, partly because I need to know when there's a problem but also because I need to know when there isn't a problem. When somebody says "this is okay" I don't want to be solving a social Rubik's puzzle of "is it REALLY okay, or are they trying to spare my feelings?"

I'd also note that "made up conventions" are not to be dismissed lightly. Money is a made-up convention but if it suddenly disappeared we'd probably collapse into chaos. The fact that people in USA drive on the right-hand side of the road is also a made-up convention, but a very important one that allows y'all to get around without crashing into one another very often.

At the risk of stretching the metaphor... some countries drive on the left, and that works for them. Somebody from the USA shouldn't expect that the same convention will apply everywhere, and countries that drive on the left aren't inferior because their convention is different. When drivers from left-hand countries meet drivers from right-hand countries, somebody has to recognise and adjust to the difference in norms.



Oh, absolutely. One of my pet peeves is people who invoke autism as an excuse for being a jerk. In my experience, most autistic people put a lot of effort into not hurting others, even if we sometimes struggle with how best to do that.

(It's one of the reasons I write here, even though writing sometimes feels like a huge effort - I'm very interested in exploring how people interact with one another.)

I've even seen some people take pride in being hurtfully "honest" to others, under a logic that goes something like this:

- autism = smart
- autism = rude
- the ruder I am, the smarter I must be

which is rubbish, but that doesn't stop people from doing it.

I can relate to all of that. I am sure that being on the spectrum makes it more difficult, but I think those are legitimate points for all of us.

As you said, there is a wide range of social conventions. Some are very necessary and helpful. Some vary substantially from one place to the next. Although I might argue that which side of the road you drive on is a rule more so than a convention. There is overlap between the two concepts but I tend to think of conventions as more like unwritten rules. They are practices and habits that we conform to because we want to fit in.

Nevertheless some of those conventions are entirely reasonable and positive elements of society. The basic decorum we show towards others and our manner of greeting one another are conventions. For the most part they are the grease that keeps social interactions running smoothly. But sometimes they drift into a means of making people conform or allowing people to cloister themselves in exclusivity or nurture a sense of grievance. You can't be in my club - figuratively or literally - if you don't dress this way and know the secret handshake (so to speak). Or I will be insulted if you don't abide by my custom even if you are trying to do so and do it wrong.

These days I think one of the biggest issues we face is our expectations around how we say things. Don't get me wrong I think it is always better if we can be polite with one another. But even that means different things to different people. Politeness is more than the use of specific language and the tone of your voice. I know people who will say the most awful gossipy, intolerant, passive aggressive things to or about each other in hushed voices and without foul language....but if I see something a like and say "that is fucking great" I'll be chastised for my language. While I agree that maybe I could have made the same statement without the word "fuck" I see that as less of a failing than I do their nastiness. We have taken the niceness factor one step too far by not only expecting niceness but accepting its veneer as acceptable excuse for being an asshole.

In my opinion it is far more important to not BE an asshole than it is to not say asshole. Right now our conventions seem to be drifting the other way.

As for the when is it ok I sometimes whether I am on the spectrum. Maybe I just wasn't born into the right part of society to know the right convention. If you want X then you are supposed to ask this way and not that way. Well ok, but if you have a grain of sense you know what I was getting at and you know there was no ill intent so maybe just clarify your preference instead of judging me for not knowing the right way. These types of conventions are not the grease - they are the sand that mucks up the gears of anyone not on the inside.

Like I said all requires a lot of judgment. While this is no doubt especially hard for people on the spectrum there are lots of others who don't feel in sync with society's conventions either.

 

[ChasingAnna]

Here's an example of honesty vs transparency.

On this site, I'm transparent about my kinks. I'll readily discuss anything that gets me off. I will NOT discuss anything about my real life. Not name, age, location, marital status, gender, nothing. I won't lie about it, but I'll simply decline to comment.

In real life, I'm obviously transparent about who I am,but would not readily talk about my proclivities with people I know professionally.

I would consider myself fully honest both here and in real life.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Nevertheless some of those conventions are entirely reasonable and positive elements of society. The basic decorum we show towards others and our manner of greeting one another are conventions. For the most part they are the grease that keeps social interactions running smoothly. But sometimes they drift into a means of making people conform or allowing people to cloister themselves in exclusivity or nurture a sense of grievance. You can't be in my club - figuratively or literally - if you don't dress this way and know the secret handshake (so to speak). Or I will be insulted if you don't abide by my custom even if you are trying to do so and do it wrong.

Indeed. Conventions can be good or very, very bad. But sometimes I hear people saying "that's just a made-up social convention" as if it meant "that's not real, it doesn't matter", and that's what I was arguing against - made-up social conventions can be titanically powerful!

These days I think one of the biggest issues we face is our expectations around how we say things. Don't get me wrong I think it is always better if we can be polite with one another. But even that means different things to different people. Politeness is more than the use of specific language and the tone of your voice. I know people who will say the most awful gossipy, intolerant, passive aggressive things to or about each other in hushed voices and without foul language....but if I see something a like and say "that is fucking great" I'll be chastised for my language. While I agree that maybe I could have made the same statement without the word "fuck" I see that as less of a failing than I do their nastiness. We have taken the niceness factor one step too far by not only expecting niceness but accepting its veneer as acceptable excuse for being an asshole.

Person A: *stomps on B's toe*
Person B: fuck, that hurts
Person A: well there's no need to be RUDE, you don't see me swearing do you?
Person B: you're still standing on my fucking toe!
Person A: I'm not going to discuss this until you can be more civil about it.

I see that dynamic playing out more and more these days. It strikes me as a kind of Prisoner's Dilemma thing - many conventions can be beneficial if both sides follow them, but very quickly become harmful when one side decides to exploit them.

Back when I was a kid, my parents had a copy of Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Polite Behaviour. I don't remember how she worded it, but part of what I got from that book was that politeness (as she applied it) was basically an aspect of kindness, and if "politeness" is making people feel bad then it's missing the point.

 

[SissySalina]

Here's an example of honesty vs transparency.

On this site, I'm transparent about my kinks. I'll readily discuss anything that gets me off. I will NOT discuss anything about my real life. Not name, age, location, marital status, gender, nothing. I won't lie about it, but I'll simply decline to comment.

In real life, I'm obviously transparent about who I am,but would not readily talk about my proclivities with people I know professionally.

I would consider myself fully honest both here and in real life.

Good for you and nothing wrong with this.

It is best to be yourself but keep in mind that there are good and bad people out there. In most places it is best to keep professional and personal life's separate. This reduces stress on most people.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It is best to be yourself but keep in mind that there are good and bad people out there. In most places it is best to keep professional and personal life's separate. This reduces stress on most people.

Some separation is good, but it can be taken too far.

My co-workers don't need to know what gets me off. That would be uncomfortable for all of us, and I think that's the kind of thing you had in mind there? But there is other "personal life" stuff that's important for work. Stuff like "my partner is ill so I may need to take time off without notice, and I'm going to be a bit distracted at work" - it's much better for everybody if I can share that sort of info when needed.

 

[ChasingAnna]

Some separation is good, but it can be taken too far.

My co-workers don't need to know what gets me off. That would be uncomfortable for all of us, and I think that's the kind of thing you had in mind there? But there is other "personal life" stuff that's important for work. Stuff like "my partner is ill so I may need to take time off without notice, and I'm going to be a bit distracted at work" - it's much better for everybody if I can share that sort of info when needed.

Where personal life and professional life intersect, yeah. That becomes important. I think we are both talking about keeping none-of-your-business stuff private.

 

[SimonDoom]

Honesty is a more important character trait than transparency. I believe in being honest with people, although I agree with Nezhul that there are many situations in life where full and complete honesty probably is not the best policy. If you are asked in a job interview what is your worst quality, it's best to be prepared to answer it with a plausible and prudent response and not necessarily give the answer you think is the right one. "Do I look fat in this dress?" is not a question that necessarily calls for an honest answer, especially if the two of you are halfway out the door and she has no time to change it.

There are many situations in life in which transparency is not called for. There's a lot of value in discretion, and withholding information others do not need to know. I am not a "what you see is what you get" sort of person, never have been, never want to be. Nobody who knows me IRL is aware of my Literotica persona, or even knows that I write these stories. I like it that way, for now.

 

[DVS]

Transparency for one is TMI for another. The demands of honesty are in collision with expectations of privacy, dishonesty is oftentimes another way of saying MYOB. There are no "rules", and that makes it exceedingly difficult for folks on the spectrum.

I've had a difficult time meeting willing women in the past and I've become close to being transparent as a result. Actually, I'm very far from being transparent, but these women think I'm spilling my life story to them and they feel they can't reciprocate.

I've tried to tell them that I don't care what they tell me and don't tell me, but I just wanted them to understand a few things about me. But, of course, they don't believe me and find it is too much information.

They feel they are required to be open with me and I think that might stem from them being less then faithful in past relationships and either feel guilty about it or just don't want anybody to know about their past. I guess this opens up their pure instincts and they don't like what they see.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Honesty is a more important character trait than transparency. I believe in being honest with people, although I agree with Nezhul that there are many situations in life where full and complete honesty probably is not the best policy. If you are asked in a job interview what is your worst quality, it's best to be prepared to answer it with a plausible and prudent response and not necessarily give the answer you think is the right one. "Do I look fat in this dress?" is not a question that necessarily calls for an honest answer, especially if the two of you are halfway out the door and she has no time to change it.

I don't think I could last long in a relationship with somebody who asked questions like that but expected me to answer dishonestly. It just seems like way too much work trying to figure out when I'm meant to be telling the truth, let alone coming up with the required lies.

 

[policywank]

Indeed. Conventions can be good or very, very bad. But sometimes I hear people saying "that's just a made-up social convention" as if it meant "that's not real, it doesn't matter", and that's what I was arguing against - made-up social conventions can be titanically powerful!



Person A: *stomps on B's toe*
Person B: fuck, that hurts
Person A: well there's no need to be RUDE, you don't see me swearing do you?
Person B: you're still standing on my fucking toe!
Person A: I'm not going to discuss this until you can be more civil about it.

I see that dynamic playing out more and more these days. It strikes me as a kind of Prisoner's Dilemma thing - many conventions can be beneficial if both sides follow them, but very quickly become harmful when one side decides to exploit them.

Back when I was a kid, my parents had a copy of Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Polite Behaviour. I don't remember how she worded it, but part of what I got from that book was that politeness (as she applied it) was basically an aspect of kindness, and if "politeness" is making people feel bad then it's missing the point.

I agree that we do seem to see that dynamic playing out more these days. Or maybe I am just offside of conventions more so I notice it more. I can’t say that I have read Miss Manners but I agree with that notion of taking a convention out of context. There was a time when politeness was seen as an antidote to crude or boorish behaviour - all other things being equal reducing the volume and taking out the crude language would make a statement more kind. But all other things are not equal. Someone being unkind can do so without swearing and someone swearing can be quite kind.

What was well intended simply became not only a veneer but an excuse. I was raised in a strict religious environment. Some of the nastiest people I have met were taught that they could be total bitches as long as they abided by a preordained set up rules. We see more and more of that these days. The rules have changed since I was younger but the basic premise remains - define virtue to suit your purpose then feel free to use it as a cudgel to pummel anyone who doesn’t agree.