Homophobic or Honest?

[Weevil]

I had another heated discussion(fight?) with the ol' ball and chain today about my inability(or refusal) to say if another man is attractive. She says that it is a pointless, macho, BS statement of my confirmed heterosexuality. I've heard this a lot in my life. Guys who can admit another guy is attractive are comfortable with their sexuality whereas guys who can't are repressed homophobes.


However, I think that is nothing but crap. I've always felt that each and everyones idea of attractiveness is a subjective matter, that it is a personal thing that can't be "correct" or "incorrect". I am not attracted to men and therefore how can I say whether or not one is attractive? What would I be basing it on? Hollywoods(Or madison avenues) idea of what attractive is? I've never bought that for women, why would I for men?

So any thoughts out there? Am I homophobic or is Erin nuts?

 

[Kuddles]

Hmmmmm....

I'm not going with whether or not homophobic...

But...you don't have to be attracted to someone to acknowledge that they are nice looking, handsome or pretty or beautiful...

I am definitely NOT a lesbian but, I can acknowledge another woman being pretty. JMHO...

On the other hand if you went around going WOW that guys a hunk then I'd say you might not be straight...LOL!

[Edited by DrEaMwEaVeR GaL on 04-17-2001 at 10:33 PM]

 

[Willing and Unsure]

i wouldnt say homophobic or that Erin is nuts.... more that you would rather have an honest opinion instead of one based on a societal thing that is extremely superficial. and as always... honesty is the best policy

 

[Weevil]

Re: Hmmmmm....

I'm not going with whether or not homophobic...

But...you don't have to be attracted to someone to acknowledge that they are nice looking, handsome or pretty or beautiful...

Don't you?

I'm just not sure what I'd be basing these qualitative judgements on.

 

[Weevil]

i wouldnt say homophobic or that Erin is nuts.... more that you would rather have an honest opinion instead of one based on a societal thing that is extremely superficial. and as always... honesty is the best policy

Fair enough. Erin is indeed nuts though.

 

[Whispersecret]

Perhaps you have a different definition of what 'attractive' is. To me, and I think to most people, if someone is attractive, it's like saying they're pretty or handsome. "Being attracted TO" and "being attractive" are two different things sharing a common root word. Admiring physical beauty doesn't necessarily have anything to do with physical attraction.

Like Dreamweaver said, I am not sexually attracted to women at all, however I can easily name many women who I think are attractive. I think horses are beautiful, but that doesn't mean I want to fuck them.

I don't think you're necessarily homophobic, but I do think it's a tad strange if you can't name at least one male on the face of the earth that you think is handsome.

 

[Whispersecret]

Re: Re: Hmmmmm....

I'm not going with whether or not homophobic...

But...you don't have to be attracted to someone to acknowledge that they are nice looking, handsome or pretty or beautiful...

Don't you?

I'm just not sure what I'd be basing these qualitative judgements on.

Hell. No one knows where exactly they get their own personal definitions of beauty. If I had to guess, I'd say I got mine from 38 years of living in America and being bombarded with the media. However, it doesn't really matter where I got the basis for my judgement. I am still able to view both males and females as attractive.

Question for the Bollman: Why does your definition for physical beauty only apply to females? You feel free enough to base qualitative judgements in regard to women, but why not men?

And please, I'm not attacking you. I'm just curious.

 

[Weevil]

Perhaps you have a different definition of what 'attractive' is. To me, and I think to most people, if someone is attractive, it's like saying they're pretty or handsome. "Being attracted TO" and "being attractive" are two different things sharing a common root word. Admiring physical beauty doesn't necessarily have anything to do with physical attraction.

But once again. There are certain types of women that I'm atrracted to. I think these women are "pretty" or "beautiful". I have yet to feel attracted to men, so what would I be basing these statements on? Your opinion of what makes a handsome man? Someone elses? I don't think I can do that. I've never gone for the bullshit hollywood version of beauty so how could I possibly say another man is handsome.

Is Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise handsome? To some, no doubt. Are they more handsome to me than Oddibe McDowell? No.

 

[Kuddles]

Well...let's say Erin commented that some guy that walked by and said, "he's handsome.' You could say...yeah, he's a nice looking chap or I could see why some women would be attracted to him.

That's not drooling over him just acknowledging that he isn't unattractive. *shrugs* You asked...

 

[Weevil]

Re: Re: Re: Hmmmmm....

Hell. No one knows where exactly they get their own personal definitions of beauty. If I had to guess, I'd say I got mine from 38 years of living in America and being bombarded with the media. However, it doesn't really matter where I got the basis for my judgement. I am still able to view both males and females as attractive.

Question for the Bollman: Why does your definition for physical beauty only apply to females? You feel free enough to base qualitative judgements in regard to women, but why not men?

And please, I'm not attacking you. I'm just curious.

It would simply be one of those things that I couldn't tell you. When I see a woman there is something that simply says if I really like the way she looks. When I meet men I simply don't have an inkling of that feeling one way or the other.

For instance, In high school I was both the Assistant captain of the schools hockey team(For you americans, the equivalent might be co-captain of the football team) and part of a fairly nerdy group that fixed the schools computers. Now in general there were differences in the way the two group of guys looked(Both in facial features and body types) and I can acknowledge the differences.

But could I say whether the in shape, always have a girlfriend Hockey players were more pleasing to the eye than the over/underweight guys who I knew? No. I could tell you who were nicer guys. I could say who were smarter. But guys are simply guys to me.

I don't judge women solely on physical attractiveness either, but their are some who simply give me a pleasing chemical reaction



Its just not there.

[Edited by EvilBollWeevil on 04-17-2001 at 10:58 PM]

 

[Weevil]

Well...let's say Erin commented that some guy that walked by and said, "he's handsome.' You could say...yeah, he's a nice looking chap or I could see why some women would be attracted to him.

That's not drooling over him just acknowledging that he isn't unattractive. *shrugs* You asked...

Yeah well I think her judgement is pretty skewed. She enjoys my company, after all.

But she could say that about a lamppost and she would get the same input from me.

 

[Whispersecret]

Perhaps you have a different definition of what 'attractive' is. To me, and I think to most people, if someone is attractive, it's like saying they're pretty or handsome. "Being attracted TO" and "being attractive" are two different things sharing a common root word. Admiring physical beauty doesn't necessarily have anything to do with physical attraction.

But once again. There are certain types of women that I'm atrracted to. I think these women are "pretty" or "beautiful". I have yet to feel attracted to men, so what would I be basing these statements on? Your opinion of what makes a handsome man? Someone elses? I don't think I can do that. I've never gone for the bullshit hollywood version of beauty so how could I possibly say another man is handsome.

Is Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise handsome? To some, no doubt. Are they more handsome to me than Oddibe McDowell? No.

Okay, I see your point and where you're coming from. BUT, here's a couple of other things to discuss.

1. I'm attracted to Alan Richtman (sp?) and would love to jump his bones. HOWEVER, I don't think he's handsome. I think Pierce Brosnan is very handsome indeed, but he doesn't turn me on sexually. (I only use Hollywood personalities because that way we all have a common frame of reference. If I named my Uncle Bernie, you'd have no image to go on.)

I gave those examples to illustrate that, to me, sexual attractiveness and physical attractiveness are two different things. True, sometimes they merge, but they can be separated in my mind.

Can you do the same with women? Are you able to think of women who are beautiful, but who don't turn you on?

If not, why? Is this an inherent male thing? Does physical beauty mean an automatic physical sexual response?

2. I actually believe there was a study done on what constitutes beauty. The researchers looked at celebrities that were generally considered beautiful/handsome and analyzed dozens of proportions in their faces. They came up with some formula of regularity that our society found to equal beauty. I'm sure it differs for different cultures, and the study might even have included other countries. I can't remember though.

 

[Weevil]

Can you do the same with women? Are you able to think of women who are beautiful, but who don't turn you on?

If not, why? Is this an inherent male thing? Does physical beauty mean an automatic physical sexual response?

2. I actually believe there was a study done on what constitutes beauty. The researchers looked at celebrities that were generally considered beautiful/handsome and analyzed dozens of proportions in their faces. They came up with some formula of regularity that our society found to equal beauty. I'm sure it differs for different cultures, and the study might even have included other countries. I can't remember though.

Well, there are women who I think are physically attractive that I have no romantic interest in. There have been women I've known that have been drop dead dorgeous that I've hated with a fierce passion(Which is where I first heard the term "Hatefuck"),who I couldn't stand to be around. But would I pass up the chance to have sex with them? Well, I would now but as a teenage virgin? No.

Consequently, are there women who don't do it for me who I'd love to be with? Yeah, probably. But not with a real consuming love. Happily all the women I've been in good relationships(That being just one) have worked on all fronts

[Edited by EvilBollWeevil on 04-17-2001 at 11:10 PM]

 

[Jester90RS]

...

This is a very simple situation. There is nothing wrong with not being able to say another man is attractive, while women can often say that about other women. The simple reason is, men are hideous, women are not. Take it from any neutral, non gender predisposed viewpoint, women are attractive, men are not. Men are hairy, sweaty, clumsy, uncouth creatures. Women are soft, cuddly, curvy, sexy, etc, etc, etc. I'm a reletivly attractive young male, but if I were a woman I'm never fuck me. I'd be a lesbian.

Women that like men have the excuse of being raised that way for being attracted to men. Gay men are just fuck'n crazy.

 

[Weevil]

Well as articulate as that was he raises a funny point. He says something that a friend of mine put better once.

"I don't know why women could like any man. We're all disgusting"

Well it was funny at the time. Must have been the drugs. Still why are the features you mention attractive? why are the male ones unattractive? Is there a correct definition of attractiveness?

 

[Unclebill]

Originally posted by EvilBollWeevil
So any thoughts out there? Am I homophobic or is Erin nuts?

Is Erin nuts? Don't have nearly enough info to make that call. I'll take your word for that one.

Are you homophobic? If, as you say, you can't/won't acknowledge that any male is attractive/handsome/good-looking by whatever standard you use, then I'd at least have to entertain the possibility that she might be onto something.

When it comes to looks, I make similar judgements about the person whether it be male of female. I can't easily quantify the factors that lead to an "attractive" decision beyond a symmetry of features which seems to be the basic human standard of attractiveness.

And when it comes to males, I have no sexual interest but I can usually concur with a woman's evaluation of a man as handsome/attractive. One exception seems to be Bill Clinton. Supposedly many women find him irresistible but I see him as having a nose seriously out of proportion to the rest of his face and head and therefore fairly unattractive.

On the other hand, a notably well known figure I regard as handsome was Rock Hudson. Likewise Cary Grant and Clark Gable.

As you said, everyone's perception is filtered through their own eyes and experiences so someone I judge attractive, you might not to the same degree. But research has shown that there seems to be a basic standard of "beauty" that is based on symmetry of features which crosses societal boundaries yielding a fairly uniform perception. So a lot of the perception may be biologically predetermined.

But your response to it is likely psychologically tempered which may account for the subject of your recent enthusiastic discussion.

 

[Whispersecret]

Re: ...

Women that like men have the excuse of being raised that way for being attracted to men. Gay men are just fuck'n crazy.

Now, that statement seems harsh, but we all have different levels of acceptance. In particular the use of the terms "excuse" and "fuck'n." By saying that women have an excuse, you imply that men who find men attractive need a similar excuse.

Personally I think people who fuck animals are crazy and sick, but I don't think homosexuals are. It's all a matter of opinion.

Now, as to taking a "neutral, non gender predisposed viewpoint," I don't think you are. Your viewpoint is just as gender predisposed, just from the opposite side.

BollW., after having discussed this subject with you in detail, and without knowing any other information about you personally, such as your relationship with your father, etc., I am willing to say that I don't think you're homophobic. Unless, you share Jester's vehement belief. Then I'd have to reconsider.

 

[Jester90RS]

I would define attractiveness as that quality which makes a person deisre to be close to it.

Think of those gender specific qualities I mentioned in a general context, not nessecarily attached to a type of person. The male qualities make one think of a gravel pit, not something anyone on thier right mind wants to be close to.

The female qualities on the otherhand make one thing of..sitting in front of a warm fire with a glass of 18yr old scotch in a comfortable chair. Or of a sleek sports car. OR any number of things that all of us, both genders, hope to be a part of at the end of the day.

 

[Whispersecret]

Goin to bed to curl up with the latest from Michael Crichton. But I wanted to say that I really enjoyed this discussion. Thanks, y'all!

 

[Weevil]

Is Erin nuts? Don't have nearly enough info to make that call. I'll take your word for that one.

Are you homophobic? If, as you say, you can't/won't acknowledge that any male is attractive/handsome/good-looking by whatever standard you use, then I'd at least have to entertain the possibility that she might be onto something.

Well she is nuts. She hates Hard Boiled for chrissakes.

Am I homophobic? Not in the least. I have no problem with homosexuality or homosexuals. Jeezus as long as its consenting adults I could give two shits what people do to each other.

The standard I use however, is simply my own. Guys are fairly non descript to me. Are the guys you mentioned good looking? To you, fine. But I can't see it.

 

[Jester90RS]

Re: Re: ...

I am willing to say that I don't think you're homophobic. Unless, you share Jester's vehement belief. Then I'd have to reconsider.

I should clarify. I am not homophobic. Despite my complete lack of understanding for how or why gay men do what they do, I am grateful that they do. Gay men are the single greatest social boon to the modern straight men since deoderant.

But that....is a completely different thread

 

[Whispersecret]

Damn. I just had to read that last post of Jester's

Okay. I still maintain that you're looking at things from a distinctly male POV, Jester.

Thinking of a man's attractiveness doesn't bring to mind a gravel pit to me. Not at all. No way. When I think of a man's torso, lean and tapered; a man's buttocks, tight, flexing; a man's arms, strong, defined; a man's chest, hard, hairy...Oh yeah, baby. Mmmmm. Makes me want to be close to them for sure.

Okay, I scrolled back to the specific qualities you mentioned.

hairy--If it's not excessive (like making the guy resemble a gorilla) this can be a plus to me. I like hairy chests.

sweaty--Hey, we all sweat. I love sweaty sex.

clumsy, uncouth --not all men are clumsy or uncouth. Besides, these are qualities that don't really affect physical beauty, if you're looking at it from a photographic point of view.

You haven't proved to me at all that men can't be attractive.

Okay, NOW I'm going to bed. G'night, all.

 

[Jester90RS]

...

lol..I was just rereading the past page and I saw a something worth mentioning

The female qualities on the otherhand make one thing of..sitting in front of a warm fire with a glass of 18yr old scotch in a comfortable chair. Or of a sleek sports car. OR any number of things that all of us, both genders, hope to be a part of at the end of the day.

Shortly followed by:

Goin to bed to curl up with the latest from Michael Crichton. But I wanted to say that I really enjoyed this discussion. Thanks, y'all!

just a sort of funny coincidence

 

[bluntforcemama]

There was something I researched not too long ago about beauty, how it's all based proportions of the facial features and their place on the face. I think this is true for men and women, and readily recognizable by both. Most people deter from this by about 1 or 2 "points," whereas Lyle Lovett would deviate more like 4 points. This links us to Sociobiology, all the way back to evolution. Your feelings on attractiveness should be inherent. I don't think you're homophobic, it's probably just a matter of your upbringing.


An Example:
http://personal.centric.net/natasha/locoface/img7small.gif

Why: Algorithms
http://personal.centric.net/natasha/locoface/img9.gif


Now this is technical, and not always the case. This is something you need to talk to "Erin" about. If it bothers you, tell her not to talk to you about it anymore.

 

[Unclebill]

Originally posted by EvilBollWeevil
The standard I use however, is simply my own. Guys are fairly non descript to me. Are the guys you mentioned good looking? To you, fine. But I can't see it.

That's an interesting declaration, i. e., guys are fairly non descript.

Do you have difficulty keeping straight which of the males you encounter are new contacts and which are long standing contacts? If you draw no particular identifying characteristics which nondescript implies (they all look alike), it must be a chore associating names with faces of personal and business friends and acquaintances.