history lesson

[MysteryWriter]

A while back there was a history lesson involved with the new york attacks posted on this board. At the time I thought it was pretty raw but chose not to jump in with both feet since it was just too damned painful. this quote showed up in my mail today. It does not say a lot but says it all for me,...
...
In a recent interview, General Norman Schwartzkopf was asked if
he didn't think there was room for forgiveness toward the people
who have harbored and abetted the terrorists who perpetrated the
9/11 attacks on America.

His answer was classic Schwartzkopf.

He said, "I believe that forgiving them is God's function. Our job
is simply to arrange the meeting."



I think understanding and forgiveness are interchangable here.

 

[wildsweetone]

my opinion

it is up to a higher power than us to judge those who have done wrong in this world and this lifetime.

for my own part, i think there's been enough needless killing and the death of one more person due to terrorism in any form is one death too many.

but then, the death of starving children, the rape of women, the selling of young girls bodies, etc. all these are wrong too. perhaps it's time we stopped pontificating and got out into the real world and really made a difference.

yes MW i agree, understanding and forgiveness are interchangable in this day and age, and they're certainly achievable - if we choose them to be.

 

[LivingUnicorn]

Re: my opinion

understanding and forgiveness are interchangable in this day and age, and they're certainly achievable - if we choose them to be.

I don't think they are interchangable

LU

 

[wildsweetone]

oops i read it wrong

MW are you saying that understanding and forgiveness are God's functions, not ours?

now if that's what you're saying then i have to disagree, at least in part.

isn't that where we come in on this kind of atrocity? surely if we ourselves learn how to understand and/or forgive others then that's a big step to respecting our differences?

not being able to forgive or willing to learn to understand means we are sitting in judgment, does it not?

 

[Quint]

I agree with Unicorn's terse reply. I see a world of difference between the two, especially when used by other people. If someone tells me I have any sort of obligation to forgive somebody, my face goes blank and I tune them out. This is regardless of whether they explicitly say "You should forgive me," or if they imply it by appealing to my "human nature," in the classic style of ad misericordiam (appeal to pity).

However, I have no problem understanding people. I'll go cold shoulder on you if you pull the obligation thing, but to myself I admit that I owe it to myself to understand you. Forgiveness has to be earned. Understanding is pretty much what I live for.

I could go on about why we even need God to forgive them, so on and so on, but I thought the quote was really funny and I didn't particularly take it seriously. So I'll just laugh and move on.

 

[MysteryWriter]

it was funny

that was the only point. Except that I dont need to understand or forgive anyone. It was a dastardly act. Suicide doesn't make it any less dasdardly. However suicide is preferrable to hiding in a religious shrine.

My heroes have always been cowboys not cowards.. Now that should start a firestorm.

 

[Ray Dario]

Re: it was funny

My heroes have always been cowboys not cowards.. Now that should start a firestorm.

My heroes have always been Indians, oh wait I bet I know why! Let's see, the cowboys came and stole our land, murdered us by the thousands, raped our women and tortured our children. We fought back and were labeled savages. Now we live on the poorest land the U.S. Government could find and yet we are prospering, learning to adapt and survive, and finally building an economy. Yeah, my heroes are my people. No not the Umpa-Loompas!

----------------------------

Okay, I'll put in a short little redneck rant here.

Understanding and forgiveness are two very different things. Like MW said, I can certainly understand someone without forgiving them.

I understand the cowards that attack civilians in terrorist attacks. They are evil. They enjoy doing evil things. They hate all that is good and beautiful. This goes as much for those who are sponsored by a government as those who are freelancing. IRA, PLO, Timothy McVeigh, Osama, etc. The list could go on and on. What all these people have in common is evil. I understand them, I know what motivates them.

As to forgiveness. Even God does not forgive unless he is asked. Osama has not asked for forgiveness, nor is it likely he ever will. Why should we treat him better than God treats us?

That said I loved the quote from Schwartzkopf. It was humorous and, like all good humor, had a strong basis in truth.

I was going to say more, but it became too much so I'll stop here. I could type pages on this though.

Ray

 

[MysteryWriter]

yes but

Indians doesnt rhyme as well.

 

[wildsweetone]

so, i guess that the world will still go on revolving while us humans will still go on disagreeing.

the key is to learn to respect each other in those disagreements.

aren't we lucky we have differences?

aren't we here to make the world a better place for our children?

how do we arrange for others to meet God? isn't this something that others cannot do for us?

 

[Ray Dario]

how do we arrange for others to meet God? isn't this something that others cannot do for us?

If you do if for yourself they call it suicide

Of course if you are an athiest, I guess you don't meet God. Or maybe it's just a surprise meeting

And if you are Hindu , do you meet a cow?

This could get confusing fast.

Ray

 

[MysteryWriter]

just between us

between you and me ray we have offended about everyone...

 

[wildsweetone]

ray,
so you are saying we cannot meet up with God unless we're dead?

just a side thought... perhaps by repeating remarks geared up to stirring trouble is not really much better than being at the wheel ourselves?

 

[Whispersecret]

Judgement is necessary and good. Forgiveness is earned. Understanding is a goal.

The evil should be punished. I don't need to understand them, beyond knowing that they are evil. The only people in a position to forgive are those who have been directly affected by their evil acts.

 

[Ray Dario]

Re: just between us

between you and me ray we have offended about everyone...

Yeah, I'm pretty good at that

By the way, about my earlier comment about cowboys. Please understand that I do NOT hold anyone alive today responsible for what happend in the 1700's and 1800's. I don't think that just because your grandfather did something terrible that you are to blame. And if you were alive and old enough to do something terrible in the 1800's then just the fact you have lived this long should be punishment enough!

I also understand that my people commited some down right nasty acts as well and the whole bloody mess was just a big cluster fuck! Sorta like the middle east today.

I love America and I think that today it is the greatest country on Earth. So please don't construe my remarks to think that I'm one of those whiny, pity me cause your grandpa dis'd my grandpa kinda people.

And WildSweetOne, I'm afraid you just don't get redneck humor and the last thing I want to do is spoil life for you. So hey, next time you see God hangin' down at the adult bookstore, tell him hi for me. And you might mention that I didn't really mean what I said the other day when that priest cut me off in traffic. He'll know what you mean.

Ray

 

[wildsweetone]

aaah but...

who is to say what is evil? who is to be judge?

those we vote to sit in judgement of us are merely human and therefore open to mistakes, bribery or errors.

those who drove the planes into buildings believed they were in the right. what's more, they believed it in their very soul.

forgiveness... is this not a word which we use when we ourselves find a different perspective? it doesn't have to be earned, but it does have to be 'learned'.

for me, a direct effect of those particular acts of terrorism (this word is fast becoming overused) is to look into the sky with fear when i hear a plane. i didn't know anyone who died. but my emotions were as highly charged as if i was in one of the planes, or standing at one of the windows 70 floors up watching the nose come straight at me.

that however, gives me no right whatsoever to sit in judgment. i am not perfect, nor do i ever claim to be. my mistakes therefore are open for others to judge. it's not fair, it's not right, but it's life.

and sometimes, life sucks. but still, i will not judge others.

 

[wildsweetone]

Ray, i get the humour dear.

trouble is i also get the emotional crap that runs alongside. maybe i should just get it out in a story and file it somewhere and let you guys enjoy yourselves.

i didn't/don't go looking for god and i certainly dont pass on messages, do your own work if you feel the need. lol i have enough of my own.

i apologise.

(i must be learning or conforming or something. i have written about four more paragraphs and deleted each after writing. it's a bigger topic than i'll ever be able to impart my thoughts and feelings on.)

having respect for differences is so easily achieved.

 

[MysteryWriter]

god forbid anyone conform

please if we get any subject with total agreement we are all probably on the verge of meeting god. Diversity makes this place fun. Being unique is about all any of us really have. I am sorry some of you are probably rich and famous. In my case being me is all I can take pride in.

So the difference in opinion is healthy.

 

[Hitchhiker]

If someone does you a dirty you must ask yourself what did I do wrong.
If someone kills themself getting their point of view over they must feel truly offended and also consider you evil.

The answer to the question just proves the arrogants and is the totaly wrong attitude to obtaining world peace.

Everone is right it depends on your point of view. When a powerful nation takes what you believe is rightly yours what would be your reaction? Anger, then when you ask for justice and you get none. What is your reaction protest. When that protest goes ignored . What is your reaction anger and violence.

We must learn listen to the grievancse of others. Then find a common ground for peace and dialogue.

Put water on the fire and it goes out!!!!and the earth is ready to come back into bloom.

 

[MysteryWriter]

interesting point of view

I have heard the arguement before and there is some merit in it. But for me I am not geopolitical nor a historian. I see only the actions of the men. I make my judgements based on what I see as right and wrong. Taking innocent lives is wrong no matter who does it.

I know people see my country as a bully but I would like to point out the extreme lenghts we have gone to not to kill innocent people in spite of the innocents who lost their lives in the dasdardly attacks in new york.

My main complaint now is that we are telling another soverign nation they should not be doing what we are doing. that is hypocritical at the very least.

I am not jewish, I am not muslem, I am not christian. I am an american. I have shed blood in the defense of this country so I invoke my right to be a patiotic fool.

 

[karmadog]

terrorism

At the level of an individual terrorist, no understanding is required. The only thing necessary is to remove him from the society of others so that they may do no harm. However, on a larger level, I believe that it is essential to understand how someone can come to believe that it is right and good to kill the innocent.

 

[its Leslie]

The world will be a safer place when all the radical christians, jews, muslims, hindus, budhists, cultists, new age quasi reality nuts, scientologists all figure it out collectively.

I was by the way born christian, became mormon about 4 years ago for about 2 years, and then I figured it out.

The truth is a hard pill to swallow and most will just say you "lack faith" (like that is somehow the unified theory to all religions eh).

But they are all wrong.

If there is a god, and I believe in something called God, this "God" has nothing in common with what is written in any of the worlds "great" books (although I have yet to see whats great about them).
The world's religions all worship concepts that would get a scientist heckled out of a room and told that they were either fucking stupid, or hadn't learn to proofread yet.

No I am not a mindless devotee of science. But when a scientific theory is proven to be full of it, the scientist isn't able to fall back on, "well you just don't understand my theory".

Sept 11 was about one thing and one thing only. All those people died from the mindless intolerance of one group twisting the teachings of a belief system, that is in direct conflict with another equally intolerant belief system. We both believe the other is entirely evil. On the one side we have the Great Satan (thats us apparently), and on the other we have the evil Terrorists (who think that martydom is a free ticket to heaven).

If heaven is only open to those with a clear conscience, those that follow the teachings basic concepts of any of the worlds main religions, without getting anal, then heaven is going to be very lonely. And hell might already be a no vacancy option.

I am proud to say I have no interest in being called christian, muslim, or by any other "established" religious denomination.

I am just Leslie, a person that lives by only one rule.

Do good always.

Just those three words people, dont mistake me for saying "do as you would have done unto you". I am not being that generous. Forget freedom to choose.

DO GOOD ALWAYS!!! no room for interpretation.

 

[wildsweetone]

...and there was me thinking there was a definate common thread amongst all the world's belief systems. *smacks palm on forehead* duh

btw leslie, isn't the defination of 'good' open to different interpretations. who's to say what is good and what isn't?

 

[MysteryWriter]

I agree les

smart bomb good...

 

[Ray Dario]

Well here I am, just a stupid redneck (btw this is a pun that I don't think anyone is getting, probably my fault) but I strongly believe there is Good and Evil and absolute values that should apply to all.

Not to say that everything I think is good is good for everyone, but there are some absolutes.

Killing innocent people is evil. I don't care if it was done by a crazed muslim martyr wanna-be or by George W sending a B-52 to Afghanistan for a weekend boom party or by Janet Reno burning 80 some people in a compound in Waco or by an IRA pawn setting a bomb in a London subway. Killing innocent people is evil. I will never question that as an absolute.

If you twist the killing of innocent people into something you call good, then you are evil. That makes Osama Bin Laden evil.

At least George W knew he was doing an evil thing and wishes he could have found a way to avoid it. Or at least give the public appearance of wishing it.

Sometime good people have very difficult choices to make. Sometimes there are no good answers to problems. It still does not make the action right or good.

Believe me, Americans are very aware of the shortcomings of our great nation. But we stand accused of many crimes that not only did we not commit, but the crime itself was never committed.

When, before September 11, 2001, did we take something, by force, from Osama Bin Laden? You accuse us, but you couch it vague ambiguites and violent rhetoric. Truth is it is only jealousy crying out. He hates us because we put troops in Saudi Arabia to force Iraq to give back territory it gained through force. We took nothing from him. We were invited in and supported by the government in place in Saudi Arabia. He, like so many other hate mongers, uses hate to increase his power. And that is EVIL! Hatred is evil, even my own hatred of the terrorists and rapists is evil. That is an absolute.

well I've ranted long enough, for now anyway.

Ray

 

[Guest]

Well by "good" I am naturally not referring to the christian version of good any more than the canadian legal code version of good.

I see women in burkkas and I find it disgusting. But that's my western bias showing. Some of those women see those burkkas as their "right". I am perfectly willing to let them have the right if they insist.

I know that women suffer female circumcision in some african countries. A barbaric practice as far as I see it. But that too might be my western bias. It's done to women by women. So I can't tell if that qualifies as male domination or not.

Then there is places like India where a woman has more in common with my luggage than a fellow human being. And if they are of the wrong caste, they might just not be "good enough".
But they all go about supporting the caste system quite willingly over there.

All of the above failed my definition of good.

But my definition of good is partly tainted by culture.

The definition of good as described in the dictionary....

good......satisfactory/considerable/desirable/well behaved , kind or virtuous/benefit

Thats not much to go on I suppose.

You can't just go with the flow. Sometimes the flow is wrong. You can't just say well its the way it's done, it doesn't have to be. Quoting it as a legal limitation is also no basis. Some laws are wrong.

I have only one basis of testing whether something is good.

If the people you influence around you, smile from your actions words and deeds, perhaps you have done good. This is no firm rule though. If your actions words and deeds are incapable of harm perhaps thats a further positive aspect. If you are comfortable with people knowing they were your actions words and deeds, and you are incapable of suffering harm from them that helps too.

So thats my test.

A smile,
no harm dealt to others,
no harm dealt to me
good candidate for it being "good"