Hey, REDWAVE, GDP grew 5.8% in the first quarter.
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REDWAVE
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Hey, WriterDom, unemployment grew to 6% in April
I turned to the New York Times and what did I see, right on the top of the front page? "Jobless Rate Climbed to 6% in April." The U.S. economy created 43,000 more jobs last month, but 565,000 people entered the workforce. Also, companies cut 21,000 jobs in March-- a huge change from the original report of a job gain of 58,000. Furthermore, most job growth is in services, generally low-paying. Construction and manufacturing both had massive job cuts. Unemployment is expected to continue to rise, even by economists who say the economy is "recovering."
The truth is: average real wages (i.e., adjusted for inflation) have declined steadily in the U.S. since 1970. That means that for most people, the economy has been in recession for OVER 30 YEARS.
And no end in sight, as the massive inequalities in wealth and income continue to grow. Or in the words of the old popular song: "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer."
I turned to the New York Times and what did I see, right on the top of the front page? "Jobless Rate Climbed to 6% in April." The U.S. economy created 43,000 more jobs last month, but 565,000 people entered the workforce. Also, companies cut 21,000 jobs in March-- a huge change from the original report of a job gain of 58,000. Furthermore, most job growth is in services, generally low-paying. Construction and manufacturing both had massive job cuts. Unemployment is expected to continue to rise, even by economists who say the economy is "recovering."
The truth is: average real wages (i.e., adjusted for inflation) have declined steadily in the U.S. since 1970. That means that for most people, the economy has been in recession for OVER 30 YEARS.
And no end in sight, as the massive inequalities in wealth and income continue to grow. Or in the words of the old popular song: "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer."
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REDWAVE
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No reply?
What's the matter, WD-- cat got your tongue? You have no reponse to my devastating refutation of your fallacious argument, do you?
Actually, WriterDom's tactic here is typical of those of right-wingers-- that is, when they do deign to attempt to reason at all, instead of just spewing bile and poison. They seize on the one isolated fact and statistic that supports their case, and ignore the mountain of evidence that proves them wrong. Ultimately, their methods are explainable by their class position. As spokespersons for the rich, defenders of wealth and privilege against the exploited and oppressed, they represent a social strata that is not used to having to persuade people. Instead, they are accustomed to barking orders, and having people jump to their commands. They feel uncomfortable with having to try to convince people they regard as inferior rabble of the truth of their positions. That is why they quickly abandon any attempt at rational persuasion, and resort instead to vile demagoguery and vicious campaigns of lies, abuse, and slander.
What's the matter, WD-- cat got your tongue? You have no reponse to my devastating refutation of your fallacious argument, do you?
Actually, WriterDom's tactic here is typical of those of right-wingers-- that is, when they do deign to attempt to reason at all, instead of just spewing bile and poison. They seize on the one isolated fact and statistic that supports their case, and ignore the mountain of evidence that proves them wrong. Ultimately, their methods are explainable by their class position. As spokespersons for the rich, defenders of wealth and privilege against the exploited and oppressed, they represent a social strata that is not used to having to persuade people. Instead, they are accustomed to barking orders, and having people jump to their commands. They feel uncomfortable with having to try to convince people they regard as inferior rabble of the truth of their positions. That is why they quickly abandon any attempt at rational persuasion, and resort instead to vile demagoguery and vicious campaigns of lies, abuse, and slander.
REDWAVE, get over it. Let people who achieve keep what they earn, and stop crying about the "inequity" of capitalism. The only way to poor nations will ever develop is through the free market system. Communism/socialism is so inefficient that there is no way to sustain a world wide economy unless it is a free market economy.
REDWAVE
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See what I mean?
Bluspoke's reply merely illustrates my point further. He doesn't even attempt to respond to the substance of my argument, because he knows what I'm saying is true. He merely demagogically attempts to change the subject and bring up totally irrelevant matters, in a desperate attempt to cloud the issue and confuse the readers.
Bluspoke's reply merely illustrates my point further. He doesn't even attempt to respond to the substance of my argument, because he knows what I'm saying is true. He merely demagogically attempts to change the subject and bring up totally irrelevant matters, in a desperate attempt to cloud the issue and confuse the readers.
WriterDom
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Your wage data doesn't included benefits, which have risen by 21% since 1980. And the consumer price index is misleading. Look at the deflation in the big items you buy. Every time I buy a computer, television, air conditioner, or stereo, for example, the new one is a lot cheaper than what it replaced and a hell of a lot better in quality.
Unemployment always lags because business people are conservative and quicker to cut costs than they are to hire new people.
I can't wait for your revolution. Workers are so much smarter that they'll completely eliminate all economic cycles and maintain 100% employment. The rich will get poorer and the poor will be rewarded for making bad decisions. I should be nicer to you so I can be one of the Worker Leaders too, and live the lifestyle of the rich and famous we both envy.
Unemployment always lags because business people are conservative and quicker to cut costs than they are to hire new people.
I can't wait for your revolution. Workers are so much smarter that they'll completely eliminate all economic cycles and maintain 100% employment. The rich will get poorer and the poor will be rewarded for making bad decisions. I should be nicer to you so I can be one of the Worker Leaders too, and live the lifestyle of the rich and famous we both envy.
Re: See what I mean?
Look , you were the one who brought up the subject of people being accustomed to barking orders and having people jump to their commands.
If you didn't want comment, why fucking say it.
Typical red, I am right and no other fucker has an opinion. Well sorry to disappoint, you write it and I'll comment.
And, incidentally, in the UK I'm left of centre.
REDWAVE said:
Look , you were the one who brought up the subject of people being accustomed to barking orders and having people jump to their commands.
If you didn't want comment, why fucking say it.
Typical red, I am right and no other fucker has an opinion. Well sorry to disappoint, you write it and I'll comment.
And, incidentally, in the UK I'm left of centre.
REDWAVE
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Reply to WriterDom
First, the source of your statistic? I documented mine by reference to an article on today's NYT, right at the top of the front page. Easy to find.
Even assuming your statistic is correct, wow, benefits have increased 20% in more than 20 years? O, boy, that's an annual average of less than 2%. Truly impressive. Meanwhile, executive salaries have risen by how much? Astronomical amounts! I notice you don't deny that inequality of wealth and income has increased GREATLY in recent years.
But I do agree with one thing you say, WD: "Unemployment always lags because business people are conservative and quicker to cut costs than to hire new people." In other words, under capitalism, business profits come first and the workers get the shaft, no matter what, in "good" times and bad. I couldn't have said it better myself.
First, the source of your statistic? I documented mine by reference to an article on today's NYT, right at the top of the front page. Easy to find.
Even assuming your statistic is correct, wow, benefits have increased 20% in more than 20 years? O, boy, that's an annual average of less than 2%. Truly impressive. Meanwhile, executive salaries have risen by how much? Astronomical amounts! I notice you don't deny that inequality of wealth and income has increased GREATLY in recent years.
But I do agree with one thing you say, WD: "Unemployment always lags because business people are conservative and quicker to cut costs than to hire new people." In other words, under capitalism, business profits come first and the workers get the shaft, no matter what, in "good" times and bad. I couldn't have said it better myself.
REDWAVE
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Price inflation
I forgot in my haste to respond to one argument of WriterDom's, which is kind of interesting. He points out correctly: "Every time I buy a computer, television, air conditioner, or stereo, for example, the new one is a lot cheaper than what it replaced and a hell of a lot better in quality." Well, I don't know about air conditioners, but it is true that electronic items in general do offer consumers a better value for their money than previously, due to advances in technology. But most people aren't spoiled yuppies, and they don't spend most of their money on electronic toys and gadgets. Instead, they spend their money mainly on basic necessities like food, rent or mortgage payments, and clothes. The prices on all such items have risen faster, in some cases much faster, than wages. People also spend a lot of money on automobiles, and expenses related to them, such as gasoline, repairs, maintenance, etc. These aren't necessities in the strict sense of the word, but for most people they're pretty close to necessities, because they need them to get to and from work. Look at how much prices have increased on cars and gas! I remember when you could buy a new car (a Volkwagen) for as little as $2,000. Now almost any decent new car will run you about $20,000! And the huge increase in the price of gas I've seen in my lifetime-- well, I don't think I need to go into detail on that. Meanwhile, wages sure haven't gone up anywhere near ten times in the same period.
I forgot in my haste to respond to one argument of WriterDom's, which is kind of interesting. He points out correctly: "Every time I buy a computer, television, air conditioner, or stereo, for example, the new one is a lot cheaper than what it replaced and a hell of a lot better in quality." Well, I don't know about air conditioners, but it is true that electronic items in general do offer consumers a better value for their money than previously, due to advances in technology. But most people aren't spoiled yuppies, and they don't spend most of their money on electronic toys and gadgets. Instead, they spend their money mainly on basic necessities like food, rent or mortgage payments, and clothes. The prices on all such items have risen faster, in some cases much faster, than wages. People also spend a lot of money on automobiles, and expenses related to them, such as gasoline, repairs, maintenance, etc. These aren't necessities in the strict sense of the word, but for most people they're pretty close to necessities, because they need them to get to and from work. Look at how much prices have increased on cars and gas! I remember when you could buy a new car (a Volkwagen) for as little as $2,000. Now almost any decent new car will run you about $20,000! And the huge increase in the price of gas I've seen in my lifetime-- well, I don't think I need to go into detail on that. Meanwhile, wages sure haven't gone up anywhere near ten times in the same period.
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WriterDom
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Re: Price inflation
You can get a Toyota Echo for under 10,000, and I'm sure it's not the cheapest car. Comparing a 1970 VW to a $20,000 car of today is a s-t-r-e-t-c-h only REDWAVE could accomplish.
I'm not saying I want a 2002 echo, but I'd take it over a 1970 brand new VW. The Echo has twice the horsepower, gets better gas mileage, and unlike the vw, doesn't burn a quart of oil every month after it gets a few miles on it.
REDWAVE said:
You can get a Toyota Echo for under 10,000, and I'm sure it's not the cheapest car. Comparing a 1970 VW to a $20,000 car of today is a s-t-r-e-t-c-h only REDWAVE could accomplish.
I'm not saying I want a 2002 echo, but I'd take it over a 1970 brand new VW. The Echo has twice the horsepower, gets better gas mileage, and unlike the vw, doesn't burn a quart of oil every month after it gets a few miles on it.
Sateema Lunasi
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My room mate bought a Kia Rio for around $8,000. It is actually a good little car. Great gas mileage and it took him cross-country with not a single problem.
REDWAVE
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Yeah, OK, there are some cheap cars, like the Kia. Generally, they're crap. And what about the price of houses? They've gone up astronomically in my lifetime. Books-- I remember when paperbacks cost 25 or 50 cents, at most 95 cents or $1.95 (for a huge volume like "War and Peace"). Now they often cost over ten bucks. Look at the cost of something as simple as mailing a letter, for cryin' out loud-- I remember when it was four cents. Sure, you can quibble about the details here and there, but the undeniable fact remains: prices, especially of basic necessities, have gone up much more than wages. Real wages have steadily declined since 1970. The rich keep getting richer, and the poor keep getting poorer. The middle class in this country has been largely wiped out.
SINthysist
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Uhhh.... REDWAVE?
I lived through your 30-year recession and prospered. So did most of America until the end of '99. We'll prosper again.
Things just keep gettin' better &
We keep gettin' richer
But we can't get out picture,
On the cover of the Rollin' Stone...
I lived through your 30-year recession and prospered. So did most of America until the end of '99. We'll prosper again.
Things just keep gettin' better &
We keep gettin' richer
But we can't get out picture,
On the cover of the Rollin' Stone...
M
miles
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Redwave
Why don't you move to Cuba?
Why don't you move to Cuba?
REDWAVE
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Figures don't lie-- but liars figure
Here's an excellent article thoroughly debunking that economic growth figure WD started this thread with:
"US growth figures don't square with business perceptions," by Nick Beams
http://www.wsws.org
Here's an excellent article thoroughly debunking that economic growth figure WD started this thread with:
"US growth figures don't square with business perceptions," by Nick Beams
http://www.wsws.org
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