Hey Ogg, a question

[SeaCat]

I have a history/military memorabilia question for you.

I have in my possesion an old artilleery shell, discharged of course.

This shell has a brass centerfire case which is 3 3/4 inches long. (Minus the projectile.) The bottom markings are as follows:

PD.Ps 138 9.16
37-85
There is also a marking that looks like an old time round bomb.

The projectile itself is a solid iron shot with two brass bands for the rifling.

If you have any ideas I would appreciate it.

I'll attach a picture if I can get a good one.

Cat

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Pretty short case for artillery. What's the caliber? The 'bomb' on the bottom sounds like Ordnance Corps but I'd need to see more.

 

[SeaCat]

Okay here we go. Three pictures of it including the markings on the base.

The projectile has a diameter of 31mm and a length of 74mm. The case has a base diameter of 34mm (it necks down) and a height of 89mm.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj79/Seacat_01/Shell1.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj79/Seacat_01/Shell2.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj79/Seacat_01/Shell3.jpg

I'm thinking this may have been an anti-armour round of some kind.

Cat

 

[TE999]

I'm guessin' it's a round for a 37mm Anti-Tank Gun...probably armor piercing solid shot.

Here's Wiki on it...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_Gun_M3

 

[voluptuary_manque]

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Collectibles-General-Modern-684/2009/4/37-85-shell.htm

 

[Weird Harold]

I'm thinking this may have been an anti-armour round of some kind.

WWI French Infantry support; anti-pillbox/ MG nest primarily.

A picture in use:

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/jpegs/37mm_mle16_bw1.JPG
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/jpegs/37mm_mle16_bw1.JPG

History nd more pictures:
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/37mm_gun.htm

A closed auction for a similar shell (pictures and other info)
http://specialistauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=1492734

 

[oggbashan]

People who know more than I do have answered the question.

My expertise on WWI shells is limited except perhaps for the larger calibres that were used by my wife's grandfather in the Royal Garrison Artillery.

Og

 

[SeaCat]

I thank all who replied. This shell sits on a shelf in my dining room and I was curious as to just what it was. Now I know.

Cat

 

[stephen55]

I'm guessin' it's a round for a 37mm Anti-Tank Gun...probably armor piercing solid shot.

Here's Wiki on it...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_Gun_M3

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/A-FM-23-81-37mm-ammo-1.jpg

The shell casing and projectile that SeaCat has pictured doesn't match the diagram of the ammo for the 37mm Anti-Tank Gun.

My guess is that it's a WWI shell for a one pound Hotchkiss gun.

http://www.shootingcommunity.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=1110&sid=38b39b675c57a34f08eea1d5649a81b9
Re: What would these have been used for?

Postby Canburne on 11 Apr 2009, 17:38
World War 1 (hence the date) 1 pound shell for the 37/85 gun (hence the markings) the 'grenade' is the bomb inspector mark

Here is an example of a similar shell


"9313 FRENCH 37X93MM CARTRIDGE CASE AND PROJECTILE FOR THE 37/85 GUN - One of the ubiquitous Hotchkiss family of 37mm or 1 Pounder guns having a slightly longer case than normal and a distinctly French projectile with two small rotating bands on the OD painted projectile. Brass nose fuse marked with anchor, L1 24 17 so probably 1917 dated. Headstamp 37-85 (identifying the gun for which it was made) PDPS 256 1.18 and ordnance bomb inspector mark, so probably the case was made in 1918.


The first 37mm gun was the French Hotchkiss rotary cannon of the 1870s, inspired by the manually cranked Gatling (although using a different mechanism) which saw extensive international service, particularly in warships, but did not seem to be much favoured by the UK. The next significant development was the 1 PR Maxim "pom-pom", a belt-fed automatic weapon (basically a scaled-up Maxim machine gun) which used the same low-powered 37x94R ammunition as the Hotchkiss. Ammunition loadings varied but typically consisted of a 555g shell fired at a muzzle velocity of 367 m/s. This came out at the end of the 19th Century and the British first experienced it the hard way, being on the receiving end of the weapons acquired by the Boers. The gun was subsequently used by the British but suffered from the lack of an obvious role; it was too small to harm naval vessels and on land was outranged by the new quick-firing artillery pieces firing shrapnel shells, which were just as mobile. It acquired a new lease of life in WW1 as an answer to low-flying aircraft, and was employed in this role by the British as well as many other armies."

http://www.shootingcommunity.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5807

 

[Weird Harold]

My guess is that it's a WWI shell for a one pound Hotchkiss gun.

Or any of several weapons built/used by several nations that used the same 37x96R ammo.

About the only certainty is that the PDPs marking identifies an ammunition factory in Paris; either Parc d'Artillerie de Place de Paris, France OR Pinchart Deny Paris, France (Lot#138 Sep 1918). depending on who is doing the attribution. The latter seems to be the more recent research.

German "Hotchkiss" shell casings are pretty much identical except for german manufacture and armorer's acceptance marks. I found mentions but no images of Russian and English made 37x96R ammunition. Hotchkiss wasn't very discriminating in who he sold his guns to.