hey, bible boy

[seXieleXie]

i've got a question for todd, who prides himself on being lit's biblical expert. the question is about homosexuality. what does the bible have to say about it? how do you interperate those verses?

actually i'd love to hear from anyone else who feels comfortable answering this question about any holy book or religion.

lexie is a curious cat tonight ^_^

 

[heterotic]

I believe it's only forbidden in the same book that forbids wearing a garment made of two different types of fabric. So, if you're going to hell for being gay, you're also going there for wearing a poly/cotton blend.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

i've got a question for todd, who prides himself on being lit's biblical expert. the question is about homosexuality. what does the bible have to say about it? how do you interperate those verses?

actually i'd love to hear from anyone else who feels comfortable answering this question about any holy book or religion.

lexie is a curious cat tonight ^_^

I am no expert and I take no pride in it. I am human of flesh blood, bone and cum like anyone else here

I have answered this before but I can't get the serach to find it so I am going to give my Todd's Cliff's Notes Version.

Yes, the bible is against and codemns the sin of homosexuality but it also commands the christian to love the sinner despite thier sin. that is the hardest part to do to be able to seperate the sinner from the sin. Rev. Phelps of GHF.com and his church do not understand it nor see it. Jerry Falwell only partially understands it. Billy Graham is the only one who I have ever seen publically understand and speaks it.

I can expand that if you like, I was very brief.

 

[seXieleXie]

I believe it's only forbidden in the same book that forbids wearing a garment made of two different types of fabric. So, if you're going to hell for being gay, you're also going there for wearing a poly/cotton blend.

actually i'm about 80% sure i've seen it in the new testiment too... mark maybe? i don't know... it's been too long...

 

[Starblayde]

"I've done everything the Bible's told me...Even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff... I've even stayed kosher just to be on the safe side" - Ned Flanders



MAN: "Wel, the Babel Fish is an obvious giveaway isn't it. It proves you exist. Proof denies faith. Without faith God is nothing."

GOD: "Oh, i didn't think of that"

*GOD promptly vanishes in a puff of logic*

 

[Moridin187]

Actually, I'm curious about a part of this question.. Where exactly does it talk about homosexuality being a sin? I've had christians argue with me before that some of the laws and rules put forth in the bible aren't valid because of who wrote them..

Like the one about women braiding their hair being a sin
Or the one about wearing gold jewelry being a sin...

 

[heterotic]

"That was easy" says man, goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed at the next zebra crossing.

 

[Starblayde]

Like the one about women braiding their hair being a sin
Or the one about wearing gold jewelry being a sin...

Some christians say that 'sins like these should be ignored, 'cos it was 2000 years ago that they were written... well...wouldnt that apply to all the commandments too?

 

[seXieleXie]

Re: Re: hey, bible boy

I am no expert and I take no pride in it. I am human of flesh blood, bone and cum like anyone else here

i find it hard to believe you're not proud of your knowledge since you take every opportunity to display it, but i'm sorry for making that assumption.

Yes, the bible is against and codemns the sin of homosexuality but it also commands the christian to love the sinner despite thier sin. that is the hardest part to do to be able to seperate the sinner from the sin. Rev. Phelps of GHF.com and his church do not understand it nor see it. Jerry Falwell only partially understands it. Billy Graham is the only one who I have ever seen publically understand and speaks it.

I can expand that if you like, I was very brief.

todd i'm not trying to start a fight, i'm not going to verbally assault you for telling me what you believe. i just want to have a calm rational conversation about this. please don't shy away. if you don't have time or just don't want to i understand, but i'm interested in talking about this a little.

do you believe homosexuality is a choice or something that can be changed with faith and prayer? do you believe god created homosexuals, that they are under demonic/satanic influence, or simply flawed people?

 

[Moridin187]

Oh, and by the way, in case anyone might be curious.. According to the ancient pagan/druid traditions which I practice, there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. But on the flip side, sex with someone you don't care for Is wrong.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Re: Re: Re: hey, bible boy

i find it hard to believe you're not proud of your knowledge since you take every opportunity to display it, but i'm sorry for making that assumption.

todd i'm not trying to start a fight, i'm not going to verbally assault you for telling me what you believe. i just want to have a calm rational conversation about this. please don't shy away. if you don't have time or just don't want to i understand, but i'm interested in talking about this a little.

do you believe homosexuality is a choice or something that can be changed with faith and prayer? do you believe god created homosexuals, that they are under demonic/satanic influence, or simply flawed people?

I don't know if it's taking every opportunity to show it off or sticking with what I know. I talk about the bible cause I know the bible, I don't talk about quantum mechanics of singularities cause well, I don't know about it.

I understand your question, I was not taking it as an attack or assault. I'll try to answer anything you like , to the best of my ability. i just didn't want to start a verse by verse posting cause some here would start a flame war, that was the only reason for keeping it short, my apologies for that. I will expand on anything you would like, the best I can.

Yes, I believe that some homosexuality is by choice, the bible does speak of people giving themselves over to it. I do believe that also some are by demonic influence. The bible speaks of such. I also believe that it is partly because of manmade chemicals. There are a lot of studies now on the nonalfenials{sp} and other chemicals that are in the plastics we use everyday and the unseen chromosone{sp} genetic damage. A lot of the studies are headin in the direction that a pregnant woman using these plastics long term can chemically alter the X&Y chroms{sp}. I do not however believe that God intentionally created little johnny to be straight and little bruce to be homosexual.

I do believe that prayer and faith can over come and change one. But one has to want to change, they will not be forced to change against thier will.

 

[lavender]

 

[seXieleXie]

Re: Re: Re: Re: hey, bible boy

Yes, I believe that some homosexuality is by choice, the bible does speak of people giving themselves over to it. I do believe that also some are by demonic influence. The bible speaks of such. I also believe that it is partly because of manmade chemicals. There are a lot of studies now on the nonalfenials{sp} and other chemicals that are in the plastics we use everyday and the unseen chromosone{sp} genetic damage. A lot of the studies are headin in the direction that a pregnant woman using these plastics long term can chemically alter the X&Y chroms{sp}. I do not however believe that God intentionally created little johnny to be straight and little bruce to be homosexual.

I do believe that prayer and faith can over come and change one. But one has to want to change, they will not be forced to change against thier will.

are those who are not homosexuals by choice still responsible for that sin? what would you say about those who genuinely try to become straight and fail? did they not pray enough, not believe enough?

is there such a thing as unforgivable sin in god's eyes? can a gay person who has a lifelong partner go to heaven?

and if you're reluctant to post the verses, could you give me a reference so i can look them up?

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Re: Re: hey, bible boy

Todd,

How much do you think the social atmosphere at the time the Bible was written influenced the text of the documents? Do you truly think these men, who wrote under the supposed command of God, were able to completely disregard their personal social and moral preferences?

Do you believe that the Bible should evolve and change to fit within a society? Is it a breathing document that should have room for societal change? Or is it a document that should be strictly construed through the ages?

The good ole paint himself in the corner question, eh?

To a point the 1611 was somewhat influenced by society but what was there in the maesoretic{sp} texts did have a strong anti homosexual tone. An intersting study I have been doing has been showing that the ancient hebrews and jews never strayed into homsexual tendancies until after they intermingled with other cultures and it was not until then that God started handing out the admonishions{sp} against homosexuality, indicating it was not even considered until brought to attention from the ungodly influences, but the study I have been reading are not complete yet and have only been going on for 10 years so I imagine there is much more the research team has to do.

Yes I beleive these men were able to write under the control of God using thier own words and vocabulary and were able to do so and disassociate themselves from the social and personal influences.

No I do not see any need for the Bible to have to change or evolve with society. Truth does not change, though our interpretations of such have been known to.

I believe it is a breathing yet unchanging document. the biggest problem it seems withthe bible and understanding it seems to be the understanding of dispensations and ages that are dealt within the 66 books. It is not an easy thing to do and something not many churches are willing to take the time to do.

Yes, I think it should be strickly and literally be construed throughout the ages.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: hey, bible boy

are those who are not homosexuals by choice still responsible for that sin? what would you say about those who genuinely try to become straight and fail? did they not pray enough, not believe enough?

is there such a thing as unforgivable sin in god's eyes? can a gay person who has a lifelong partner go to heaven?

and if you're reluctant to post the verses, could you give me a reference so i can look them up?

the ones not by choice, I pressume you means those I mentioned by demonic or chemical reasons, responsible for that sin.

The demonic yes fully because they allowed themselves to fully be taken in sin, from what I have read and understand in the bible one cannot become demonically possessed/oppressed without a consent of sorts. hard to explain here but its basically that person has so willingly wallowed in sin that they have given themself over to it.

For chemical reason not entirely but an effort has to be made to change and I feel and have seen that those genuinely wnating to change can and have, though it will be a life long struggle. but if genuinely wanting to change and over come.

We all fail, christians are humans flesh, bone, blood and desire like anyone else. Sure they may fail, but what and where they go from that failure will show through thier true heart and intentions.

Unforgivable sin, I think its suicide, but there are many deabtes on what it truely is but it seems to come down to sucide and lying to the holy ghost. I believe suicide cause its wasting a life.

I don't believe a 'reformed' gay christian can go to heaven even if he only has one partner and waits till marriage and lives with them lifelong. by conitinuing to live in the sin clearly identified as an abomination to God shows no remorse or effort to change.

 

[seXieleXie]

what about lesbians?

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

what about lesbians?

Lesbianism is the smae thing as homesexuality or dd I miss the definition boat somewheres?

If I didn't I believe the same would hold true for them as well.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Actually, I'm curious about a part of this question.. Where exactly does it talk about homosexuality being a sin?

I believe the first mention of a prohibition against male homsexuality in the Bible was in Leviticus 18:22; "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination".

Leviticus is full of detailed laws about what people were allowed to eat, how they were allowed to sacrifice, treat slaves, women during their menstrual periods, etc.

I've had christians argue with me before that some of the laws and rules put forth in the bible aren't valid because of who wrote them..

I think what they meant was a comparison between Mosaic law (such as in Leviticus and Exodus) and laws of the "New Covenant".

There is a theological theory, that I probably won't do justice to here but will attempt to explain anyway, that the earlier Mosaic laws were those of a covenant between God and the early Hebrews, whereas the convenant between God and Christians is basically that Christians did not have to go obey all of the ritual sacrifice laws, etc. (i.e., most of Leviticus and Exodus), and that Christians were basically supposed to obey the Ten Commandments, what Jesus said to do, and what the New Testament said to do.

Does that allow Christians to ignore the Levitican laws regarding sexuality? Most Christians would say these laws come under the New Testament general prohibition about sexual immorality, but if that is so, then I would ask why that one chapter and not the others also?

Do I believe that homosexuality is a sin? Definitely maybe - but nowhere near as much a sin as adultery, which I strongly consider to be a sin.

A lot of teachings in Christianity assume a lot; for a long time Sodomy was assumed to be anything except Missionary position sex (oral sex, doggie position, etc.) and by some (St. Augustine?) even enjoying sex was considered to be a sin. Then Sodomy was narrowed down to its current legal definition which is anal sex. But nowhere in the Bible will you find a definition of Sodomy, or if it was even sexual.

 

[JazzManJim]

Hi leXie...being an Assistant Bible Boy, I can chime in with some relevant cites here.

The New Testament reference to Homosexuality most often used is found in Romans 1: 24-27.

"[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

The strongest statement against it, though, come from Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, which specificaly cite male homosexuality, call it an "abomination" and requires a penalty of death.

There's a large split between interpretations of both of these passages. I, personally, believe in as literal a translation of the Bible as can be made, In that sense, from Leviticus, homosexuality is wrong. But what strikes me as odd is that only male-male homosexuality is explicitly condemned. There are other places where homosexuality in both sexes is obliquely referenced and condemned by inference, but it's not black and white.

But as for the New Testament reference, it seems clear to me that homosexuality is a definite no-no. That's how I read it. Some scholars, though, would say to take the reference in context. Paul was talking there about certain idol worshipers common in the area of the Roman church, and their conduct. It is clear that they reached a point with God where he "gave them over" - allowed them to pursue the final act which put the nail in their condemnation coffin: homosexuality. What Paul is condemning, they say, is the unnaturalness of their worship - the idolatry which had led them farther and farther from God with the homosexual practices being the farthest extreme. I'm not sure that their interpretation differs fundamentally from mine. In each, we would agree that homosexuality is wrong, but for different reasons. Their would be a sin, not because of the act itself, but because of the motive behind the reason. Mine would be a sin because of the act itself.

That's how I see it anyhow. I think it's important to say, though, that I subscribe to a belief that many Christians often forget (and some don't even believe, though Todd does as well): hate the sin and love the sinner. We are all, to my belief, sinners. We have an essential nature that can't help but transgress and only Jesus' sacrifice can cover our transgressions and pay for them sofficiently to allow us entry to Heaven. Even after that, though, we remain sinners and struggle every day between acts of right and wrong. That doesn't make us any less loved in the eyes of God, nor any less worthy of Jesus' sacrifice. That we continue to do wrong, even as Christians, only tells us that life will be a struggle between doing right and not doing right. That I am a Chrstian gives me no warrant at all to treat others as less than I. We're all in the same boat. I only have the advantage of accepting the gift I was given, but not worthy of earning. To treat people poorly because I disagree with their lifestyle; to be hostile and horrible toward them is unacceptable, if for no other reason than my behavior casts Christians in a bad light and makes it much less likely that the person to whom I've been mean will become one.

Did that last part make sense? I do hope so. It's been kind of a long day. I hope I answered the original question.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Some christians say that 'sins like these should be ignored, 'cos it was 2000 years ago that they were written... well...wouldnt that apply to all the commandments too?

Actually, it was 3400 years ago (1400 years before Christ), but who's counting?

Read my previous post.

 

[PacificBlue]

I don't believe a 'reformed' gay christian can go to heaven even if he only has one partner and waits till marriage and lives with them lifelong. by conitinuing to live in the sin clearly identified as an abomination to God shows no remorse or effort to change.

I'm going to try and not instigate a flame war with what I'm about to say but here goes...

All sin is the same in the eyes of God in my understanding of the bible. There aren't levels of sin where one sin is worse than another. I realize some religions do say there are but that's a whole different ball game, we are talking the bible here...not different denominational takes on passages in the bible. Therefore if that is a true statement, that all sin is the same, than we will all be in hell with lots of company cause I don't know one single person walking on the face of the earth that is without sin on a daily basis, weekly, or monthly basis.

 

[patient1]

i've got a question for todd, who prides himself on being lit's biblical expert. the question is about homosexuality. what does the bible have to say about it? how do you interperate those verses?

actually i'd love to hear from anyone else who feels comfortable answering this question about any holy book or religion.

lexie is a curious cat tonight ^_^

Hi Lexie-
I'm sensing Todd isn't telling you what you're searching for, so I'll try to help. I should point out that Pride is a cardinal sin, so you may have innocently accused Todd of wrongdoing , putting him on the defensive.

As for unforgivable sin , the only references to that I remeber are Mark 3:29, & Luke 12:10 which say that blasphemy against The Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin , & Mark's account of Jesus words says those who do it are in danger of eternal damnation.
It doesn't say it's a guaranteed one-way ticket.

Old & New Testaments are different deals. The Old is a contract, full of regulations& stipulations.
The New is a different system. Faith-based Forgiveness. It is less specific. It says love the Lord, your God with your all, & your neighbor as yourself. It says judge not , lest ye be judged.

I Corinthians 5:10, it equates sexual sin with greed, drunkeness, etc., but differentiates between those within the church & those without. Judging those outside the church is to be left to God.

Look it up, read it over.I'm summarizing, Does that help?

 

[Natalie Nessus]

I believe it's only forbidden in the same book that forbids wearing a garment made of two different types of fabric. So, if you're going to hell for being gay, you're also going there for wearing a poly/cotton blend.

I am a sinner much more than i thought

 

[seXieleXie]

okay. thanks everyone. how utterly depressing. i spent so long struggling with my faith and sexuality (since i'm sure bisexuals are in the same boat as homosexuals) and eventually i gave up. i can't control how i feel about women, i can't stop it and i never asked for it.

hate the sin and love the sinner is a good philosophy for us here on earth, but it doesn't change where i stange with God, if He exists. i cannot call myself a christian because i cannot accept that my sexuality is a choice i should be damned for.

JMJ, so are you saying you think homosexuality is wrong?[edited to add] or are you just giving the christian perspective?

patient1, so what does a christian do with the old testiment? is it a whole new game? do they live by both?

 

[JazzManJim]

I'd like to go off-topic for just a moment with a very small nit-pick about what I consider the most mis-quoted parts fo the Bible.

I'm talking about the "Judge Not lest ye be not judged" thing.

Most folks take this to mean "Don't be judgemental", but that's not the point of what was said. In fact, the entire thought, paraphrased is a bit different. "If you judge someone, you're going to be judged yourself, and moreover, the standard you use when you judge people is going to be exactly the same standard God uses to judge you."

In other words, it's an adminition to Christians to be careful how you judge people because God will give you a taste of your own medicine.