Helpful Feedback wanted...

[bonnybee]

Hi,
Some of you literary critiquer's please give me some honest feedback . . . I don't need to hear "hot story" , "got my rocks off" kind of stuff. Just good solid critique of what is wrong and what is right. Basically what I need to work on.
Thanks in advance . . .
Bonnybee


http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=57411

 

[MyEros333]

Hi,
Some of you literary critiquer's please give me some honest feedback . . . I don't need to hear "hot story" , "got my rocks off" kind of stuff. Just good solid critique of what is wrong and what is right. Basically what I need to work on.
Thanks in advance . . .
Bonnybee

Hi there.

I'm enjoying your story as I type this. I know you said you wanted a literary critique, but I'm not sure if you meant overall sense, English teacher picky, or something else. So, what I'll do is give you some feedback and if it's too fussy or not what you were looking for I'll try again. And hey, I'm an author but my writing isn't perfect either...so please don't take me for a stuffed-shirt authority. (Grin) Here we go, small details first...

I believe "a month long hunting and fishing trip" should be hyphenated as "month-long" but I could always be wrong. There were a couple here and there that might have been under the same category like "palms down". But these are trivial issues.

Also, the dialogue/dialog has a couple of fussy rules that might be a pain to use (hence, I rarely use dialogue). For instance:

"Not this time, son," her husband had said, "You need to be here to...."

Should change the capitalization on the word "You" to become "you" since the everlaw of dialogue sees that as all one sentence and thus doesn't need capitalizing since it's in the middle. Crap, it looks like you only did that once, sorry for making a point out of it...dang.

The other thing I noticed, and it's not a big issue (none of what I'm saying in this message is anyways), but the thinking differs from speaking. It's intended that things thought use single quotes. So you've got: 'this story is well-written,' That is a thought, the truly fancy writers go to using the key under the ESCape key for the opening quote...but I don't believe in being as fancy as all that. A character speaking under their breath, however, can be done with either single or double quotes.

Those were all picky things, and I don't like sounding like a jerk by pointing them out. (Blush) Now for some style notes:

I like the way you throw in a description of the breasts near the beginning whilst painting the visual picture of how Marcy looks. Nicely done, it's almost like gratuitious nudity in a movie...a little flash of something that isn't vital to the story at that point but keeps the attention focused so that you don't wander off. The other technique to use is a sliding scale; the longer you set up the scene and have non-sexual storyline, you have to make the payoff for the reader bigger at the end when the sex comes into play. This builds your climax to a greater extent as well as gives a reward to encourage readers to sit through your opening credits so-to-speak. Then again, sex junkies will "jump to the best part" in your story no matter what you do anyways, but the average reader appreciates the increased payoff system.

Your use of adjectives is excellent. I can almost picture you as you write, tasting the words, seeing which combination will have greatest effect, and then writing it into the story. Some rather tasty visuals!

...at this point I started to REALLY read the story, got turned-on, and couldn't think worth a darn to finish the critique. Dang, you've got a mind and set of fingers on you, that's for sure. Fantastic fantasy...I'll just post this and go read more of your work. And hey, if you'd like you can give mine a run-through. I love to share.

Hope I helped in a good way,
Rich

 

[bonnybee]

Hi Rich,
Thanks for the feedback. Indeed I did want the picky, picky, picky kind of English teacher critique. I know that no one has the time to go through a sentence by sentence critique, but hoped that a number of people would respond, giving me just the most glaring errors that they say.

I knew better on the You versus you, but on the single quote mark rule could you tell me where I could find that rule. My little punctuation book, "Punctuation: Plain and Simple", says that in thoughts that are expressed as being said to use double quote marks (She got out of the car and slammed the door. "That should wake Mark up," she thought. versus She thought slamming the door as she got out of the car would wake Mark.
As used in narrative, no quotation marks. I don't know which is right, but I always thought that single quote marks are only used when you have quoted material inside dialog. Maybe one of the learned people reading this can shed a little light on this.

I'm glad you enjoyed the story. It must have gotten the intended response.

I read your story Dressing Down, and found it most intriguing. I have read very few stories written in the style you use, but i could follow the story pretty well....until the next to last paragraph. You switched from first person to second person (you did this in a couple of other places also, but it wasn't as confusing to me as this last one.) I had to read the next to last paragraph two or three times to get what I think you are trying to say.
I think it would be better written in first person throughout. It's a fun little fantasy, which I think a lot of us have had at one time or another.
BTW, I'm a sixty-five year old male, and the story is written to be read by a woman (I think), so that may be my proplem.

I'll go read some of your other stories now.
Thanks again. Bonnybee

 

[ladyphoenix]

Bonnybee's "Helping Mom"

Okay...you asked, so here goes:

Marcy CEE? Bonnie BEE? Cute, but maybe a little too cute.

You seem to have a love affair with commas and they’re overused in your story often. For example, in the first paragraph you have four sentences, but nine commas. Think of a comma as a break in the rhythm. Sometimes you want the break; when they’re overused, they become more like roadblocks than just accessories.

“Marcy Cee sat quietly in her SUV, parked in their driveway, desperately trying to think of something she could say to Mark to make him feel better. She’d just returned from taking Don, her husband, and John, her oldest son, to the airport. They’d just departed for a month long hunting and fishing trip to Alaska. Mark, her youngest son, was devastated that he hadn’t been asked to go, for the date coincided with his first week in college.” Okay, now try this:

“Mary Cee parked in the driveway, sitting there for a minute trying to think of something she could say to her youngest son, Mark, when she got in to the house. She’d just taken her husband and eldest son to the airport for their annual month-long fishing trip but this year Mark wasn’t able to go along. Unfortunately, the trip coincided with Mark’s first week of college.”
We don’t need all the details: what she drives, what the names of the other two men are, where the fishing trip is. They might be interesting, but in the first paragraph you’re going for the throat, not for ‘interesting’. Also, don’t say he wasn’t asked to go, and that he’s ‘devastated’; it makes him look like a ten year old. He’s an adult, going to college. Sure, he is probably down about it, but let it be an adult decision he’s made, opting to go to college rather than take the annual trip with Dad and his brother.

“I can go a week late,” he pleaded. Again, makes him look like a little boy.

There seems to be some indicators here that her husband treats Mark like a kid, and that part is okay to put in...perhaps it will give her more incentive to do whatever she’s going to do with him later (feeling bad that he’s treated like a boy, and wanting to let him know SHE thinks he’s a man, etc.) but don’t make HIM look like a kid...it’s not very erotic.

Hate to disagree with Eros, but as to “Not this time son,” her husband had said, “You need to be here...” I would put a period after ‘said’ and left the Y capitalized, so it reads,

“Not this time son,” her husband had said. “You need to be here...”

“If they brought home a ton of meat it would only have cost them eight dollars a pound.” Are you saying she’s mad because hubby spent 16,000.00 on a trip? It’s not too clear. If she were pissed about it, I’d at least use an exclamation point. Also, is this (and the way her hubby treats Mark) some indicator of marital problems? If so, I’d like to be told a bit more directly.

I could buy “she tossed her head angrily” or something, but for some reason “flipped her head” makes me think of flipping coins. And she should not slide “her legs” to the ground. She should slide her feet to the ground. Think about it.

ACTIVE VOICE...ACTIVE VOICE “Walking toward the door, the length of her well toned legs was accentuated by the cut-offs (we know cut offs are short) she was wearing (we also know she worn cut offs this morning because she is still wearing them). A sleeveless white blouse made for a pretty contrast with her tanned skin (I hope her arms are not the only tanned part of her), and beneath it’s rather sheer material, the contours of her breasts were restrained by a silky bra. Opening the kitchen door, she went inside.”

I rather think it makes Mom look kinda slutty to describe her at this point as having “bouncing globes” that are “plainly” visible (well, I know, the BRA is visible, not the boobs, but in a way, it’s the same thing)

First thing Mom does upon entering the house is call up his name, then “...honey, I’m home!” (your line went “Mark, honey,” I’m home she yelled...” and should have been: “Mark! Honey, I’m home!” she yelled...)

She comes in and calls him to breakfast....at this point I’m thinking about those little statuettes that Wal-Mart sells every Mother’s Day with the little gold-painted ladies with little gold labels that read “World’s Best Mom!”. Are you trying to make her out to be June Cleaver or is it just me? I mean, you make him out to be a baby. Then you exaggerate HER motherly qualities. I wonder if you are trying TOO hard here to make your point that this is an incest story.

Don’t get me wrong. I have two incest stories on Lit, so I’m not going to bash you because of that. I just think you’re trying too hard to make him weak and her strong. Is it HER job to make him feel better, or to make up for his father? Can making her little boy his favorite breakfast really make him feel better?

And while we’re on breakfast, I do not know anyone who says “link sausage.” They just say “sausage”.

Dialogue: “Damn,“ she muttered to herself, “syrup’s...”
Should be “Damn,” she muttered to herself. “Syrup’s...”

NOW Eros and I agree. ONE quote for thoughts....TWO quotes for speech.
‘One more try,’ she thought, ‘then I’ll get Mark to get it down.’

“Mark bounded down the stairs, taking them three AND four at a time.”

Do they really keep people in the hospital for “a few days” for minor third and some second degree burns? Damn...I wish I had her HMO.

“Of course, Mom. We’ll manage just fine.” He didn’t realize what he was saying. WHY doesn’t he “realize” what he’s saying? You are hinting at something happening in the future that he doesn’t know about yet (ie, He thinks they will be okay, but they won’t). If that is the case, then you can’t put that here....if he doesn’t know about what’s coming in the future, he can’t foreshadow it here.

“...I guess you’re going to have to feed me. Do you mind?”

Ummm.....I don’t think you meant it this way, but.....I laughed when he fed her the sausage. First, why would he feed it to her with his fingers? Most people would agree that sausage is not a finger food. Second, WHO LICKS SAUSAGE SEDUCTIVELY?

Okay, in the next paragraph you want us to think the pain meds made her do it. Not quite as effective as the pain meds, apparently.

She and Don had had wild passionate sex the night before...that tears up the idea that she’s pissed at him about the trip.

“If she asked him real nice” should be “If she asked him very nicely”

At this point, you lose my interest and upset my stomach. Okay, I can understand her needing to “pee” and using that as an excuse to get her son assisting her with her clothes, BUT I DO NOT WANT TO KNOW she needs to have a bowel movement. Geez.

I read the bathroom scene, just to see if it was over quickly.....it wasn’t. Again, she’s talking to him like he’s an idiot...as if he has no idea how on earth to wipe someone’s bottom. He even manages to get his finger in her backside “accidentally”? I’ve finished reading.

In short, you may write a great incest story, but this one isn’t it. Your grammar and punctuation are pretty clean for the most part, but as I always say, a good editor is essential.

The real problems enter in the realism of the characters and their relationship. I do NOT care how burned my hands are, or how much dope I’m on, I would NOT allow my 18 year old child to wipe my bottom. I’d grit my teeth through the pain and bear it. You used the medication as the initial reason the sex gets started, and that’s just not strong enough. The introduction of her sexual thoughts very conveniently don’t begin until she’s doped up. In other words, you bring things into the story when they are convenient for the plot, and generally that makes things ring untrue.

In most erotic stories, but I think PARTICULARLY in incest stories, you must get the characters down first, and then give them realistic motivations. Otherwise, it’s just slapping on a genre and trying to make the characters fit.

I’d be interested to see how/if your writing develops. You have some promise, so don’t stop. But work on characterization and plot. I have faith you can come up with some great, perhaps more psychological and emotional basis for familial mating.

Thanks!!

 

[bonnybee]

Thank you, Ladyphoenix, for the detailed feedback. It was what I was looking for. I'd like to try to explain where I was coming from, if I may.

I honestly wasn't trying to be cute with the names. I never even noticed them till you mentioned it. It does make me look dumb.

Your point is well taken about the comma's. I'll be more careful in the future.

I don't know where that third degree burns came from. It should have been first degree. (Another mental lapse on my part.)

I confess. When this story was first written, it was with a much younger male figure. It was rejected, naturally, for having underage characters (I should learn to read the submission rules more carefully BEFORE submitting.) I just made a few changes of get Mark to the desired age without thinking about how it made him sound.
Your point is very well taken. A quick fix is usually not a good fix.

About the sausage. In my part of the country sausage comes in two varieties, link and patty. Link sausage, like bacon, is sometimes eaten with the fingers. It may not be good manners, but it happens. I've even seen people in resturants pick up a link sausage with their fingers. Now think of someone sucking one of those link sausages into their mouth through pursed lips. Seductive may not have been the best word choice, but I think it could be provocative.

I'm sorry the bowel movement scene made you quit reading the story. If it did it defeated the whole purpose of writing it. Again, this was a quick, or easy way, to give Mark time to "play around" that area. I didn't like it myself and shouldn't have left it in the story. However I think you may be surprised at what you'd let your son/daughter do for you if you were seriously ill and couldn't take care of yourself. I guess I've just cleaned up after too many people that couldn't take care of themselves.

Your last three paragraphs are the ones that really helped. Now I know what to work on, but how to develope characters in the short space is the question I'd love to have answered.

Thanks again for the feedback. I do appreciate it.

 

[Starlight13]

Just wanted to express my own thanks, at your asking for some detailed feedback, and what it has taught me! I don’t feel confident enough to go through all of that on one of my own poor efforts.
I enjoyed your story, and I enjoyed the detailed response from “ladyphoenix” almost as much. I agree with much of what she says, (bowl movement!) but not all of it. Several things are subjective, and I can see what your getting at. The sausage works for me – call me a slob, but fingers are fine. “Mark, honey! I’m home,” sounds more logical to me. In addition, I can see where the problem with age comes in. It is clearly written about somebody younger. (Had the same problem with one of my own attempts – read submission rules more carefully BEFORE submitting!)
I would like to say how much I enjoyed the mainly female viewpoint attention to detail. Exactly the kind of thing I like, and I can never get enough “detail.” Far too many stories kind of skip the nitty gritty, and resort to rather clichéd sex phrases. You did a lovely, descriptive job. I read erotic stories to for the physical side effects and the mental stimulation they provide, not their adherence to the rules of English Grammar. (Which once you get into that can of worms is a total mess anyway.) You have the ability to fulfil my requirements wonderfully well. Keep up the good work.
My thanks to “ladyphoenix” for the lovely, detailed and rather frightening response. Almost makes me want to give up. But I won’t, since I enjoy it too much.

 

[ladyphoenix]

[QUOTEI'm sorry the bowel movement scene made you quit reading the story. If it did it defeated the whole purpose of writing it. Again, this was a quick, or easy way, to give Mark time to "play around" that area. I didn't like it myself and shouldn't have left it in the story. However I think you may be surprised at what you'd let your son/daughter do for you if you were seriously ill and couldn't take care of yourself. I guess I've just cleaned up after too many people that couldn't take care of themselves.
]


Dear bonny,
I feel I have to respond to this part of your response. As to sausages, yes, they come in patties and links in most places, but their sexual use is subjective, clearly. Perhaps it's where I live, but I've never seen anyone, except perhaps children, eat them with their fingers.
As for the above mentioned bathroom scene, you say "It was a quick, or easy way, to give Mark some time to 'play around' with that area" (I assume you mean that area of her body). Yes, I understand that's why it was used, but as you say yourself, the means should be MORE than just something "easy" to get to the end.
Moreso, you say "...I think you may be surprised at what you'd let your son/daughter do for you if you were seriously ill and couldn't take care of yourself. I guess I've just cleaned up after too many people that couldn't take care of themselves."

My grandmother, who had Alzheimer's, died in my home. She lived with us the last year of her life, and it wasn't pretty. She was completely bedridden at the end, and I am glad for people like you, who clearly give of themselves in taking care of others. I know how hard that is. But I wondered why you brought it up in your response. Yes, I know if I were TRULY sick and needed help, I would get it, from whomever was good enough to help. But how does that kind of true need have anything to do with an erotic story where the mother is not really completely helpless, and it's just being used as a vehicle to get her into bed with her son?

Maybe it's just me, but that struck me wrong somehow. I don't mean to be rude or silly, but I just wanted to mention that. I think you have a lot of potential, but I do think you need to think your stories out more before submission. Nothing wrong with checking and double-checking....we all need it.

best,
ladyp

 

[ladyphoenix]

To Starlight13

Gee, I didn't think I was scary. I'll have to work on that.

You say you "read erotic stories for the physical side effects and the mental stimulation they provide, not their adherence to the rules of English grammar". Hmm.

To me, reading something that does not flow smoothly is too jarring and hard to read. It doesn't give the kind of mental stimulation you refer to and therefore, no physical "side effects" (although I'm not so much interested in those as you are, perhaps). Therefore, I think that how well it is written DOES have a great effect on the stimulation received (mental AND physical) and that well written stories more often than not follow (generally speaking) the rules of grammar.

The synergy of writing...

 

[Guest]

Dear "ladyphoenix",
I have no wish to argue with you in any way. I can only agree whole-heartedly with everything you say. I only wish that I could write with the attention to detail and the grammatical perfection you speak of. I admire and envy those who can. I was simply, clumsily, trying to say that for me, the ‘story’ is what matters, not the grammar and the spelling errors (but I agree that it is better not to have the errors in the first place!)
And one other thing, maybe a personal quirk, but many of the slick, professional stories do seem to lack a certain, vitality? Spark or something, that many of the amateur efforts I have read seem to have.
Apart from that minor squirm, I loved your critique, and found it extremely educational, and hopefully rewarding.