Helpful feedback vs Creative hijacking

[DarkCosmos]

I've been seeing a lot of posts recently about "how can I do X so people stop posting X about my writing?" and while I'm not discouraging anyone from trying to improve their writing styles and seek out constructive criticism, I will say as someone who's been posting his work fairly regularly to multiple sites for years now, I feels it's important to address an issue I don't often see talked about enough when it comes to commenters.

Are they truly critiquing your work? Or are they trying to take control of it?

This is something I don't often see addressed when someone posts asking for help and advice on their writing. Before you go making drastic changes to your writing style or story, consider asking yourself if the person commenting or sending you feedback may not have their own agenda.

I'm not trying to say all critiques are bad or that the comment section should be a place for thoughtless praise only. But more often than not, I'll find that whenever I see someone posting for help regarding their writing it's usually in direct response to something one of their readers has said. Which can be a slippery slope in my opinion.

I think it's important to distinguish between helpful feedback and those who are just trying to attack/hijack your work. Which is why I want to open a thread of discussion on the subject. To all my fellow authors on lit. What are some examples of good critiques you've recieved versus stuff that's clearly got an agenda behind it? I'll go first.

Good critique: I recently posted the first chapter of a new story where one of the main characters is a Mexican woman who occasionally breaks out into Spanish. I had one commenter post that while they enjoyed my writing they found certain ways I would portray her use of Spanish as a Mexican woman to be inaccurate. To me, these are the sorts of critiques that warrant your attention.

Bad critique: I've had several anons that were clearly just projecting their own insecurities on my writing style. But the one that most prominently sticks out in my mind was the commenter who posted "I can tell by the way you write that English is your second language." That one genuinely bugged me for awhile, I can't lie. But I've since come to the realization that anyone who would just assume that is being completely disingenuous.

But what are some examples you all have? In your opinion what separates good criticism from bad criticism? And how can you personally tell if a commentor on your work is being disingenuous or manipulative in their words or not?

 

[Voyeurkenneth]

It's hard to truly know, imo. But from recent experience, I received a 600-word comment from Anonymous expressing how a T/I story of mine could've resonated better with the commenter, and by extension, the T/I readership at large. The commenter even offered suggested rewrites of certain plot points. Personally, I found the feedback insightful; I still wouldn't have written the story any other way though. I think the fact that they left a lengthy comment, sprinkled in with their caveat that they weren't judging the story's kinks, convinced me they weren't trying to be manipulative. Sometimes, the way a comment is framed goes a long way to interpreting it (e.g. compliment sandwich).

(To Anonymous, if you happen to be reading this post, thanks for taking the time and energy to comment!)


To your bad critique example, if that's the extent of the comment they'd left, that's a bummer. I'm guessing they didn't provide a constructive example that could've helped you improve for next time.

 

[THBGato]

I always worry about this whenever I'm beta-reading - will my feedback and advice take the writer away from the story they want to write? I try to hedge everything with caveats and warnings to this effect ("please ignore anything I say that doesn't chime with your vision") but I still worry.

 

[DarkCosmos]

To your bad critique example, if that's the extent of the comment they'd left, that's a bummer. I'm guessing they didn't provide a constructive example that could've helped you improve for next time.

Yeah, I tend to be very skeptical of comments like that purely because they don't offer any sort of example as to what they mean. But this one in particular felt more like an attack than anything else. Maybe I'm just not as thick skinned as I thought, but it didn't feel genuine. More like they pulled an insult out of a hat and posted it.

I also agree that critiques can be insightful even if you wouldn't change anything. You might approach a new story a little differently based on what they offer you. Or it could spark new ideas for a different project.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Helpful vs unhelpful:

• Feedback received before the story is published, vs. feedback received later. (Obviously most readers don't get an opportunity to do the former.)
• Feedback that's coming from a position of "what was the author trying to do here, and how can that be enhanced?", vs. "I wanted to read a different kind of story and I think this author should oblige me with that".
• Feedback that is specific and actionable, vs. feedback that's vague.
• Feedback from readers who know what the fuck they're talking about, vs. feedback from those who don't. (The number of people who'll take it upon themselves to chide an author for something that's actually correct...)

 

[iwatchus]

Helpful vs unhelpful:

• Feedback received before the story is published, vs. feedback received later. (Obviously most readers don't get an opportunity to do the former.)
• Feedback that's coming from a position of "what was the author trying to do here, and how can that be enhanced?", vs. "I wanted to read a different kind of story and I think this author should oblige me with that".
• Feedback that is specific and actionable, vs. feedback that's vague.
• Feedback from readers who know what the fuck they're talking about, vs. feedback from those who don't. (The number of people who'll take it upon themselves to chide an author for something that's actually correct...)

The first two I really like.

The third is always nice, but some of the most useful advice has been things like "I didn't understand why they did that" or "this section didn't feel right to me"

Advice from non-writers can be really useful to see how average readers will react. I was just watching Brandon Sanderson's lectures and he is a big believer in getting average readers to beta read for him. (He has a huge fan base and can afford to pay readers, so different world from us.) It lets him see when the pacing is right, when people pick up foreshadowing, when they get lost, etc. Some of the comments I get would be useful feedback if I had gotten them in advance (point number 1)

 

[DarkCosmos]

Helpful vs unhelpful:

• Feedback received before the story is published, vs. feedback received later. (Obviously most readers don't get an opportunity to do the former.)
• Feedback that's coming from a position of "what was the author trying to do here, and how can that be enhanced?", vs. "I wanted to read a different kind of story and I think this author should oblige me with that".
• Feedback that is specific and actionable, vs. feedback that's vague.
• Feedback from readers who know what the fuck they're talking about, vs. feedback from those who don't. (The number of people who'll take it upon themselves to chide an author for something that's actually correct...)

That last one in particular, I find, is a special kind of frustrating.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Is English your second language? I ask because sometimes you absolutely can tell. We've had some discussions here about helpful tips for ESL writers precisely for that reason.

That said, we also have a very dysfunctional relationship with feedback here in the AH. We moan about the lack of comments, then we complain about the comments we do get.

If someone comments that "they didn't understand" something, people here invariably jump to the conclusion that the fault is with the reader.
If you are teaching a class, and your students don't understand your lecture would you just excuse it as "the students are too dumb to learn" or would you examine your teaching style?
Writing is no different. We assume our point is getting across because we completely understand it, but feedback often suggests otherwise.

A good example from another thread, one of our writers mocked a commenter for saying that the characters actions didn't fit their personalities by observing that the characters were in fact based on real people.
That doesn't mean the commenter is wrong, the thoughtful way to look at that is to consider what aspects of those characters' personalities you didn't convey to the reader to make their actions consistent.

 

[iwatchus]

Is English your second language? I ask because sometimes you absolutely can tell. We've had some discussions here about helpful tips for ESL writers precisely for that reason.

That said, we also have a very dysfunctional relationship with feedback here in the AH. We moan about the lack of comments, then we complain about the comments we do get.

If someone comments that "they didn't understand" something, people here invariably jump to the conclusion that the fault is with the reader.
If you are teaching a class, and your students don't understand your lecture would you just excuse it as "the students are too dumb to learn" or would you examine your teaching style?
Writing is no different. We assume our point is getting across because we completely understand it, but feedback often suggests otherwise.

A good example from another thread, one of our writers mocked a commenter for saying that the characters actions didn't fit their personalities by observing that the characters were in fact based on real people.
That doesn't mean the commenter is wrong, the thoughtful way to look at that is to consider what aspects of those characters' personalities you didn't convey to the reader to make their actions consistent.

I'm not sure if this is directed at DarkCosmos or me.

No, English is my native tongue and the only language I have ever been truly fluent in. I was getting close in French many decades ago.

I agree strongly with two of your points (not a common state between us )

I also find the dichotomy between our wanton craving for comments and many complaints about them to be odd. I guess at the extremes, it is more consistent -- lovecraft is blasé about all of his comments and I value every one because they are so rare, they are precious.

I also find the comments about not understanding really useful, although sometimes hard to accept at first.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'm not sure if this is directed at DarkCosmos or me.

No, English is my native tongue and the only language I have ever been truly fluent in. I was getting close in French many decades ago.

I agree strongly with two of your points (not a common state between us )

I also find the dichotomy between our wanton craving for comments and many complaints about them to be odd. I guess at the extremes, it is more consistent -- lovecraft is blasé about all of his comments and I value every one because they are so rare, they are precious.

I also find the comments about not understanding really useful, although sometimes hard to accept at first.

I agree those comments aren't always fun to accept, but that's why it is so important to do so. At least assuming you actually want to get better at your craft.

There was a bit on the radio after Glenn Frey died, they played a clip of an interview with Bob Seger talking about him. Apparently they knew each other back in Detroit before either of them was famous. They were driving around one night and a song came on the radio they both hated. Bob Seger said he reached for the radio to change the station and Glenn Frey stopped him. Told him they needed to listen to the song and figure out why this song was on the radio and they weren't.
It's a really powerful idea, there is a frequent theme with many artists that they are doing great work, people just don't appreciate them, or they just need to be "discovered". We would often be better served by taking a more critical eye to our own work.

Edited to add: It was directed at DarkCosmos, since he brought that up.

 

[DarkCosmos]

Is English your second language? I ask because sometimes you absolutely can tell. We've had some discussions here about helpful tips for ESL writers precisely for that reason.

That said, we also have a very dysfunctional relationship with feedback here in the AH. We moan about the lack of comments, then we complain about the comments we do get.

If someone comments that "they didn't understand" something, people here invariably jump to the conclusion that the fault is with the reader.
If you are teaching a class, and your students don't understand your lecture would you just excuse it as "the students are too dumb to learn" or would you examine your teaching style?
Writing is no different. We assume our point is getting across because we completely understand it, but feedback often suggests otherwise.

A good example from another thread, one of our writers mocked a commenter for saying that the characters actions didn't fit their personalities by observing that the characters were in fact based on real people.
That doesn't mean the commenter is wrong, the thoughtful way to look at that is to consider what aspects of those characters' personalities you didn't convey to the reader to make their actions consistent.

I guess for me it comes down to context. This person who sent me that comment was an anon who never bothered to elaborate on what they meant by that. So even if they were being sincere (which I am still highly doubtful of) there's nothing I can really "do" with a comment like that. Nothing thoughtful I can take away from it. No insight into how I might improve that can be found. It's just a general statement. One I have never received before and never recieved sense on any of my other writings.

And to answer your question, no, English is not my second language. It's my first.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I guess for me it comes down to context. This person who sent me that comment was an anon who never bothered to elaborate on what they meant by that. So even if they were being sincere (which I am still highly doubtful of) there's nothing I can really "do" with a comment like that. Nothing thoughtful I can take away from it. No insight into how I might improve that can be found. It's just a general statement. One I have never received before and never recieved sense on any of my other writings.

And to answer your question, no, English is not my second language. It's my first.

Certainly an odd comment then.

 

[XerXesXu]

There was a bit on the radio after Glenn Frey died, they played a clip of an interview with Bob Seger talking about him. Apparently they knew each other back in Detroit before either of them was famous. They were driving around one night and a song came on the radio they both hated. Bob Seger said he reached for the radio to change the station and Glenn Frey stopped him. Told him they needed to listen to the song and figure out why this song was on the radio and they weren't.

It was because the radio stations were paid to play songs because plays created sales. At first, recording artists complained that radio stations breached their copyright by playing their records for free and pay per play was introduced. Artists were then scandalised that their work didn't get played, but those artists who paid the radio stations to play their records got plays and sales. This is the market model now used on the internet.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It was because the radio stations were paid to play songs because plays created sales. At first, recording artists complained that radio stations breached their copyright by playing their records for free and pay per play was introduced. Artists were then scandalised that their work didn't get played, but those artists who paid the radio stations to play their records got plays and sales. This is the market model now used on the internet.

This was well after the Payola Scandal.

 

[XerXesXu]

This was well after the Payola Scandal.

We're not 'after the Payola Scandal', we're still in it.

 

[DarkCosmos]

Certainly an odd comment then.

But I absolutely agree with what you said earlier about needing to take a critical eye to my own work. I don't do this professionally. It's more like a passionate hobby of mine. It would be wonderful if I could write professionally someday, but I'm very realistic in my expectations regarding my work. That said, I do want to improve my craft. I do want to write stories that are as fun to read as they are to write. And I love writing stories that just about anyone can enjoy, or at least find approachable. Which is why I appreciate all forms of feedback, not just the positive stuff.

But I also want to make it clear to others, especially those like me who tend to be their own worst critic, that not all feedback you get is necessarily "good" of "helpful" feedback. Especially on Lit. I suppose I just worry about newer authors who haven't had a chance to thicken their skin yet being discouraged by a few bad apples. That's all.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

We're not 'after the Payola Scandal', we're still in it.

The internet is a different animal, and admittedly messy. But the radio environment that they were discussing in that era was still getting tremendous regulatory scrutiny in the aftermath of that scandal.

 

[XerXesXu]

The internet is a different animal, and admittedly messy. But the radio environment that they were discussing in that era was still getting tremendous regulatory scrutiny in the aftermath of that scandal.

Regulations are made to be worked round. The market always prevails. If people give me money I don't care if they give it directly or indirectly; so long as I get it, I'll do it.

 

[Jmanchu]

I've been seeing a lot of posts recently about "how can I do X so people stop posting X about my writing?" and while I'm not discouraging anyone from trying to improve their writing styles and seek out constructive criticism, I will say as someone who's been posting his work fairly regularly to multiple sites for years now, I feels it's important to address an issue I don't often see talked about enough when it comes to commenters.

Are they truly critiquing your work? Or are they trying to take control of it?

This is something I don't often see addressed when someone posts asking for help and advice on their writing. Before you go making drastic changes to your writing style or story, consider asking yourself if the person commenting or sending you feedback may not have their own agenda.

I'm not trying to say all critiques are bad or that the comment section should be a place for thoughtless praise only. But more often than not, I'll find that whenever I see someone posting for help regarding their writing it's usually in direct response to something one of their readers has said. Which can be a slippery slope in my opinion.

I think it's important to distinguish between helpful feedback and those who are just trying to attack/hijack your work. Which is why I want to open a thread of discussion on the subject. To all my fellow authors on lit. What are some examples of good critiques you've recieved versus stuff that's clearly got an agenda behind it? I'll go first.

Good critique: I recently posted the first chapter of a new story where one of the main characters is a Mexican woman who occasionally breaks out into Spanish. I had one commenter post that while they enjoyed my writing they found certain ways I would portray her use of Spanish as a Mexican woman to be inaccurate. To me, these are the sorts of critiques that warrant your attention.

Bad critique: I've had several anons that were clearly just projecting their own insecurities on my writing style. But the one that most prominently sticks out in my mind was the commenter who posted "I can tell by the way you write that English is your second language." That one genuinely bugged me for awhile, I can't lie. But I've since come to the realization that anyone who would just assume that is being completely disingenuous.

But what are some examples you all have? In your opinion what separates good criticism from bad criticism? And how can you personally tell if a commentor on your work is being disingenuous or manipulative in their words or not?

I try to see it in two ways when I deal with any feedback.

First with good feedback, exactly as you say, if it's clear, and it gives you ideas on how you could either improve or have something interesting to do next time as food for though, whether next draft or next story. All gucci.

Sometimes it's good feedback but it can be not what you're going for in the scope of your story, or what you really want to write. Fine too. Sometimes they'll be like "ooo! What if you did this idea I just came up with!?" or "I like that but... I have THIS specific idea where you should take it instead! I think it's better!" If it works, and it sounds cool, that's gucci too. But it's not necessary everytime. It's my story, right?

But when people are like that-- even the more "overzealous" ones that really, really want you to do this instead-- what it really means is "your story is so cool it really inspired me to get my imagination and excitement going! It's so cool to be a part of this process, even as a reader of your draft/published piece!" Even if sometimes, some of them not always the most smooth with it. Or get a little too insistent on what they want to see(possibly trying to hijack it whether they mean to or not). I just take it like it is. Excitement or engagement. Whether or not I take any of their ideas? Up to me. Either way, I learned quick to take it as flattery, even when sometimes a reader tries to hijack it. Know what I mean?

But unhelpful feedback? Just putdowns or unconstructive criticism? If they can't tell me why something is bad aside from "you suck" or that it's "bad" or in your case, just some random snark on questioning your primary language, it's just not worth the effort to waste any energy on it.

They could just be taking it out on you whatever bullshit they're dealing with, they could just be trying to play the Simon Cowell or Gordon Ramsay of literature on you. Some people just want to bring others down or just play the snob to feel important. Or sand got in their crack when they sat down on their seat that day. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter.

If it's unhelpful,, then i ignore it. Or I might laugh if it's actually a clever zinger. You feel me?

 

[Cagivagurl]

One of my personal concerns is agreeing to help others by beta reading...
I do it unconsciously, not maliciously, or with intentions of insulting, or denigrating. While reading and making hopefully helpful suggestions to their work. My suggestions often run as if I were checking my own story, not helping somebody else...
Without thinking, I am converting their story to read like mine....
It's why I don't offer. I help if asked, but I'm selfconscious about stealing their voice...
Every writer has their own unique style and voice... They are precious and should be preserved at all cost...
Regardless, if it's right or wrong...

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I try to see it in two ways when I deal with any feedback.

First with good feedback, exactly as you say, if it's clear, and it gives you ideas on how you could either improve or have something interesting to do next time as food for though, whether next draft or next story. All gucci.

Sometimes it's good feedback but it can be not what you're going for in the scope of your story, or what you really want to write. Fine too. Sometimes they'll be like "ooo! What if you did this idea I just came up with!?" or "I like that but... I have THIS specific idea where you should take it instead! I think it's better!" If it works, and it sounds cool, that's gucci too. But it's not necessary everytime. It's my story, right?

But when people are like that-- even the more "overzealous" ones that really, really want you to do this instead-- what it really means is "your story is so cool it really inspired me to get my imagination and excitement going! It's so cool to be a part of this process, even as a reader of your draft/published piece!" Even if sometimes, some of them not always the most smooth with it. Or get a little too insistent on what they want to see(possibly trying to hijack it whether they mean to or not). I just take it like it is. Excitement or engagement. Whether or not I take any of their ideas? Up to me. Either way, I learned quick to take it as flattery, even when sometimes a reader tries to hijack it. Know what I mean?

But unhelpful feedback? Just putdowns or unconstructive criticism? If they can't tell me why something is bad aside from "you suck" or that it's "bad" or in your case, just some random snark on questioning your primary language, it's just not worth the effort to waste any energy on it.

They could just be taking it out on you whatever bullshit they're dealing with, they could just be trying to play the Simon Cowell or Gordon Ramsay of literature on you. Some people just want to bring others down or just play the snob to feel important. Or sand got in their crack when they sat down on their seat that day. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter.

If it's unhelpful,, then i ignore it. Or I might laugh if it's actually a clever zinger. You feel me?

A lot of people like to disregard the, "I wish they'd done this..." as the commentor just wanting wish fulfillment.
I tend to think of it was what the reader THOUGHT would happen. Try to examine it from the perspective of what created that expectation.
Sometimes there isn't much there, "She need to get pregnant" isn't helpful, but, when what they are asking about makes sense in the context of the story, it's worth asking, "Why didn't I do that?"
I mentioned in the Trivia thread Robert Kirkman of the Walking Dead admitted the characters didn't go to the CDC in Atlanta because he didn't know it was there. If someone here had gotten the feedback "Why didn't they go to the CDC?" the response would be a defensive, "I didn't want them to, that's not the story I was writing!" rather than an acknowledgment that there are alternatives that might have made more sense than what you did.

 

[SkyBubble]

I've had readers like a story because it fulfills some kink or idea of theirs, then offer extensive rewrites that I "should have" put in.

 

[Erozetta]

One of my personal concerns is agreeing to help others by beta reading...
I do it unconsciously, not maliciously, or with intentions of insulting, or denigrating. While reading and making hopefully helpful suggestions to their work. My suggestions often run as if I were checking my own story, not helping somebody else...
Without thinking, I am converting their story to read like mine....
It's why I don't offer. I help if asked, but I'm selfconscious about stealing their voice...
Every writer has their own unique style and voice... They are precious and should be preserved at all cost...
Regardless, if it's right or wrong...

6. Feedback may be kind, critical, or both, accept that any criticisms are offered only when asked for and the intent of all such feedback is meant to improve your writing, whether you accept and act on that criticism is always in your discretion! The same goes for offering feedback, not all writers will agree with your suggestion and that’s not an affront to your knowledge or experience.
7. Please accept that writers have a personal style that may go against common writing conventions and that shouldn’t be seen as a writing flaw.

This is part of the rules of the Discord I help run.

This is how I approach beta reading and editing.

The majority of the time, I'm only correcting typos, significantly distracting grammar errors, or pointing out repetition. I'm unwilling to change a writer's words unless the meaning of the sentence isn't clear. Even then I only point out the possible interpretations and offer suggestions on how to lean it toward one interpretation or the other.

 

[Jmanchu]

A lot of people like to disregard the, "I wish they'd done this..." as the commentor just wanting wish fulfillment.
I tend to think of it was what the reader THOUGHT would happen. Try to examine it from the perspective of what created that expectation.
Sometimes there isn't much there, "She need to get pregnant" isn't helpful, but, when what they are asking about makes sense in the context of the story, it's worth asking, "Why didn't I do that?"
I mentioned in the Trivia thread Robert Kirkman of the Walking Dead admitted the characters didn't go to the CDC in Atlanta because he didn't know it was there. If someone here had gotten the feedback "Why didn't they go to the CDC?" the response would be a defensive, "I didn't want them to, that's not the story I was writing!" rather than an acknowledgment that there are alternatives that might have made more sense than what you did.

Yeah, I hear ya on what the readers might be expecting. If they catch a case of the "wish fulfillments" from your story, that means you gave them more than enough expectations and investment to get them something to wish for. Even if that wish don't come true, too bad for them right? But they'll eventually get that the wish-master only gives out wishes at his or her leisure, not theirs, but they're more than welcome to stick around, ya know? Or they can be surprised if that spicy story don't go the way they think they do. Maybe pleasantly so. Maybe not. Their choice. You serve the food YOU give em. They want other dishes they can go somewhere else or go hungry, if they want, after working up that appetite, but your spicy aromas got em hungry either way.

And that "why didn't I do that?" Yeah. Been there, done that. Or the comment of "I thought this story was great, but it seems kind of weird when this character reacted this way. If the setting or place is like that, wouldn't that be something that would be on their minds at that moment?" Which can kinda be a bummer when you realize that oversight.

And I've been at least once or twice a little defensive, a little more than I'd like to admit, over feedback by a beta reader or two, before I swallowed my pride and try to objectively accept that they might have a very valid point.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Yeah, I hear ya on what the readers might be expecting. If they catch a case of the "wish fulfillments" from your story, that means you gave them more than enough expectations and investment to get them something to wish for. Even if that wish don't come true, too bad for them right? But they'll eventually get that the wish-master only gives out wishes at his or her leisure, not theirs, but they're more than welcome to stick around, ya know? Or they can be surprised if that spicy story don't go the way they think they do. Maybe pleasantly so. Maybe not. Their choice. You serve the food YOU give em. They want other dishes they can go somewhere else or go hungry, if they want, after working up that appetite, but your spicy aromas got em hungry either way.

And that "why didn't I do that?" Yeah. Been there, done that. Or the comment of "I thought this story was great, but it seems kind of weird when this character reacted this way. If the setting or place is like that, wouldn't that be something that would be on their minds at that moment?" Which can kinda be a bummer when you realize that oversight.

And I've been at least once or twice a little defensive, a little more than I'd like to admit, over feedback by a beta reader or two, before I swallowed my pride and try to objectively accept that they might have a very valid point.

One of my stories a commenter called me out because the characters ended up doing anal fairly quickly. My first thought was to say, well they did, get over it.
But then I thought it over a little more and realized, they were right, it didn't really flow well. The reason I had done it was the MMC was written with someone in mind and I was writing to his kink.