Help needed to change Legislature.

[Lord DragonsWing]

As many of you know, I'm a nurse. Right wing as many of you consider my beliefs but I need some help to change the laws in the state. In Alabama there is no law for the minimum or maximum of number for nurses to take care of a patient.

Here there is no law to give the facilites for a patient/nurse ratio. The last job I had I was assigned 60 patients with myself as nurse as three aides. There is no way to take care of someone when you have 59 others to worry about. This was a three story facility with one nurse on each floor. If someone coded, then all nurses in the building were expected to respond. Which left all the patients on the two floors without a nurse. This is Alabama. There is no protection for the aging population.

With the election coming up, I'm pushing for a state senator to change the law to protect the patients, nurses and aides. I would greatly appreciate any help. There should be a minumum amount of nurses to patients. 30 at the max, not 60. With a receding state law over the years to lower the amount to 25 per nurse and 15 per aide.

With the current amount each patient will see increased bed sores, less care and increased critical problems.

I'm sorry, but this is a passion I want changed in the state. I'm going to need help.

 

[Guest]

help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help help

I'm sorry. Are these enough?

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp!

 

[doormouse]

LOL!!

*giggles* and scampers back to her hole

 

[dr_mabeuse]

That sounds horrible, but what can we out-of-staters do?

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

Elect a bleeding-heart liberal for a national office.




(Sorry - I'm SORRY! But SOMEBODY had to say it!)

 

[Guest]

In all seriousness,

We have nurse-patient limits in Kansas and Missouri (where my mom is a retired Director of Nurses).

I cannot imagine any type of care facility existing without it.

 

[minsue]

Re: In all seriousness,

We have nurse-patient limits in Kansas and Missouri (where my mom is a retired Director of Nurses).

I cannot imagine any type of care facility existing without it.

It's easy, sss. In much of the country there is such a deep shortage of nurses that we wouldn't have enough health care facilities at all if there were limits to the ratio of patients to nurses. (Not that I am against the limits. I'm all for them. Just explaining why there are states without them.)

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: In all seriousness,

It's easy, sss. In much of the country there is such a deep shortage of nurses that we wouldn't have enough health care facilities at all if there were limits to the ratio of patients to nurses. (Not that I am against the limits. I'm all for them. Just explaining why there are states without them.)

Yes, that makes sense. There are many LPN's and other assistants but few true RN's on the floor at any given time.

The word from some of my mother's colleagues is that in many locations (since the level of patient care has dropped so much because of the shortage) health care professionals are suggesting a family member always be present when someone is hospitalized.

Isn't that frightening?

Just one more thing to worry about when someone is undergoing medical treatment.

 

[minsue]

Re: Re: Re: In all seriousness,

Yes, that makes sense. There are many LPN's and other assistants but few true RN's on the floor at any given time.

The word from some of my mother's colleagues is that in many locations (since the level of patient care has dropped so much because of the shortage) health care professionals are suggesting a family member always be present when someone is hospitalized.

Isn't that frightening?

Just one more thing to worry about when someone is undergoing medical treatment.

Considering how much time was spent chasing down nursing staff when my grandfather was hospitalized last year, I would agree. Those poor people must have hated us. Of course, as much as I felt for them, it didn't stop any of us from running them down when he needed something or was in pain.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

It is always a habit of mine to suggest a family member to stay. That way I know someone is able to help watch the patient since I'm busy with others who don't have family.
At one home we had 60 patients on each floor with a nurse assigned to each floor and three aides. If a patiet coded on one of the floors the other two nurses were required to respond. That left 120 patients without a nurse of any kind until the code ended. If two patients coded. Well, there was hell was to pay. This is common practice here.

What we're doing so far is organzing a letter writing campaign to the state senators to push for a law. Even if the letters come from out of state we're giving it a national focus. Letting Senators know that others are aware of these shortages and how it affects the look of the state. What company would want to locate here if the healthcare is in this shape? What family would want to move here if that's what they face when they get sick? Who would want to visit for fear if they got hurt that's what they faced in their recovery?

With the shortage of nurses and now the new overtime laws going into effect for professionals it's going to get even worse unless states start enacting laws to protect the patients and nurses.

 

[SeaCat]

Lord D,

This is a problem nation wide, as I well know. Unfortunately I have seen it rom three angles. I have had a family member as a patient, I am currently an Aide/Orderly+ in the lovely state of Florida, and I am working my way through school to become an R.N.

Some of the things which are making this even worse are the regulations we have to work under, and the loosening of the regulations to please certain groups.

Fact, here in Florida you don't have to speak English to become a C.N.A. . As a matter of fact you don't have to have a high school diploma to become one. If you of the correct ethnic minority then you will become an Aide, get raises, and get advanced.

To give you my Certs. I am a C.N.A. as well as an E.M.T. and a liscenced Psych. Tech. I have my ticket in E.K.G., and I am a C.P.R. Instructor. I have been working in the same hospital for the past three years.

Now to show you how I am affected by our states regulations and beliefs. I am paid roughly half of what the minority personell on my unit are paid, even though they are basic C.N.A.'s and have been there less than two years. My wife has been in the same hospital for the same amount of time as myself, and is paid almost half again as much as I am.

When my patients, and their family members see how I am treated they often wonder, (Often in writing to the facility director,) why this is going on. When they ask the R.n.'s on the floorthey are told that I am "only" an Aide and therefore have much less training and education therefore I am not due the respect they are. (By the way I have a B.S. in Electronics, am Bi-Lingual, and have less than one year until I have my B.S.N.)

To change the problem you are facing with staffing we have to change the attitudes towards Nurses. We also have to change the attitudes inside the nursing profession. There are places for all levels of nurses, be they C.N.A.'s, L.P.N.'s, R.N.'s, or N.P.'s.

Cat

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Lord D,

This is a problem nation wide, as I well know. Unfortunately I have seen it rom three angles. I have had a family member as a patient, I am currently an Aide/Orderly+ in the lovely state of Florida, and I am working my way through school to become an R.N.

Some of the things which are making this even worse are the regulations we have to work under, and the loosening of the regulations to please certain groups.

Fact, here in Florida you don't have to speak English to become a C.N.A. . As a matter of fact you don't have to have a high school diploma to become one. If you of the correct ethnic minority then you will become an Aide, get raises, and get advanced.

To give you my Certs. I am a C.N.A. as well as an E.M.T. and a liscenced Psych. Tech. I have my ticket in E.K.G., and I am a C.P.R. Instructor. I have been working in the same hospital for the past three years.

Now to show you how I am affected by our states regulations and beliefs. I am paid roughly half of what the minority personell on my unit are paid, even though they are basic C.N.A.'s and have been there less than two years. My wife has been in the same hospital for the same amount of time as myself, and is paid almost half again as much as I am.

When my patients, and their family members see how I am treated they often wonder, (Often in writing to the facility director,) why this is going on. When they ask the R.n.'s on the floorthey are told that I am "only" an Aide and therefore have much less training and education therefore I am not due the respect they are. (By the way I have a B.S. in Electronics, am Bi-Lingual, and have less than one year until I have my B.S.N.)

To change the problem you are facing with staffing we have to change the attitudes towards Nurses. We also have to change the attitudes inside the nursing profession. There are places for all levels of nurses, be they C.N.A.'s, L.P.N.'s, R.N.'s, or N.P.'s.

Cat

Excellent point. I'm an LPN and have trained many Rn's. It's strange how people think the word nurse associates with RN. Most don't realize that CNA's and LPN's do the majority of nursing care. The RN's do most of the paperwork. I've ran codes where the RN's had no idea. The doc looked around the room and knew me. She pointed and said the code is yours.

I could go back to school and get my RN. But I have no desire to.
I went back and got my Cisco and MS certifications. But not my RN. I've got some excellent and very close friends who are RN's. They're charge nurses. And when I work with them they give me the same the responsibilty as an RN. I've been a nurse so long it doesn't matter. Many time, my supervisors tell the young RN's to back off and follow my lead.

The sad part is all the RN's who have attitudes against LPN's and CNA's. We're all a team. Let the RN do the paperwork, let the LPN do the patient care and let the CNA give the dignity because they do the worse part of the job.

The aides I work with are excellent. I couldn't ask for better. How an aide does what they do for such low pay I'll never understand. But it's time for a change. It's time to protect the patients and protect our license. I've worked Florida. The staffing there is much better than here. You've got a law protecting the patients and nurses. Here we have none.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Wouldn't a cap require more nurses? In turn, wouldn't that raise the cost of health care?

 

[poohlive]

A cap would require more nurses. Ha ha. Joe, you are on top of everything as usual. I thought we would be able to slip that one passed you, too.


I don't know about anyone else, but for those of us not in the medical profession, and who haven't spent half of their lives in hospitals for friends of family (and I'm sorry if you have) but I really don't know the difference between LPN, RN, CRM, EKG, TLC, and whatever other technical nurse decorums there are, lol.
I always thought there were doctors, nurses, and the occasional candystriper (although, I thought those left in the early eighties).
Could you give us non medical people a little help. Who they are exactly, and what they do that differentiated them from the others.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by poohlive
A cap would require more nurses. Ha ha. Joe, you are on top of everything as usual. I thought we would be able to slip that one passed you, too.

...? O.k.

 

[poohlive]

Ha ha, oh, nothing. Just thought someone deserved the Captain Obvious award for the day.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by poohlive
Ha ha, oh, nothing. Just thought someone deserved the Captain Obvious award for the day.

Oh. I guess it did seem a little obvious, but it was a premise moreso than a conclusion.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Wouldn't a cap require more nurses? In turn, wouldn't that raise the cost of health care?

I'm sorry JW. But you amaze me. Do your research. Many states already have caps and the healthcare cost is the same. And are you putting a price on human life? Would you rather have a nurse who has 30 patients or 60 patients taking care of you? You'll get alot better care with a nurse who has 30.

So before you argue a point please do the research.

I'll be honest JW. I've argued with you before. You seem to like to argue. But this is not about you. It's about a state population getting old and facing decreasing nursing care. Have you even done the research to see what that causes? I live with it. That's why I'm fighting to improve it. If you're looking for an argument please find another thread. This thread is about caring and helping.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lord DragonsWing
I'm sorry JW. But you amaze me. Do your research. Many states already have caps and the healthcare cost is the same. And are you putting a price on human life? Would you rather have a nurse who has 30 patients or 60 patients taking care of you? You'll get alot better care with a nurse who has 30.

So before you argue a point please do the research.

I'll be honest JW. I've argued with you before. You seem to like to argue. But this is not about you. It's about a state population getting old and facing decreasing nursing care. Have you even done the research to see what that causes? I live with it. That's why I'm fighting to improve it. If you're looking for an argument please find another thread. This thread is about caring and helping.

I wasn't arguing any points. I asked a question. Jesus, relax, will ya'? I mean, you seem like you like to argue, too... so much so that you're trying to do it now.

I haven't done research, thus I asked to see if anyone knew what I was curious about concerning the issue--if I'm not allowed to do that, please tell me. I will apologize, and honestly.

I can appreciate caring and helping, but how I'm supposed to understand the situation without knowing more or being allowed to ask for more information about parts of it?

 

[doormouse]

Sorry, LDW.

But, I didn't see JW say anything, but make a valid point.

It was a sensible question. We're not all as 'informed' on medical/nursing situations as those in the field.

Someone has already asked for the terms to be explained. If you want to get support of others,... forget it.

Good luck with your campaign.

 

[Liar]

I'm sorry JW. But you amaze me. Do your research. Many states already have caps and the healthcare cost is the same. And are you putting a price on human life? Would you rather have a nurse who has 30 patients or 60 patients taking care of you? You'll get alot better care with a nurse who has 30.

I think Joe's question is very liable. Of course, both he and I wants more nurses, more doctors, more hospital beds, and all that jazz.But isn't it because of budget constraints that you are assigned to so many patients in the first place? If it was not a question of money, then every patient would have his own nurse.

If a state has the same healthcare costs with 60 patients per nurse as with 30, then the equation does not really match, unless we cut down on the helthcare costs somewhere else.

Ideally, the helthcare budget should simply be raised to acoomodate new nurses (and the wages, working condition and status of the job should be improved, so that more people want to become nurses).

Unfortunately, the buck rules. A state law like that without the proper funding is a potentional risk, it could create more problems than it solves.

Here, a law was passed that said that every county had the obligation to make public libraries accessible to handicapped people. So the public libraries did. But because they didn't get any financial support for this expensive (but sure, very justified) new change, they couldn't buy any new books for three years.

Will such a law have state-aided funding to back it up? If not, does your hospital have the financial buffer to afford such a change?

#L

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Since this subject is a passion of mine and I'm working to change the state law let me explain the option between a cap and patient care.

Patient care is given by a nurse, CNA or other professionally qualified individual to those in need. The pay of these individuals comes from the facilities they are employed by.

A cap is is paid by the insurance company on an agreed rate with the facility. By keeping the cost low, bonuses are given to administrators and agents. These bonuses are paid by the corporations and the insurance companies.

So, in the meantime, the patients suffer. Facilities such as this have an increased amount of bed sores and patient falls. Which ends up costing the taxpayer billions of dollars under medicare. Much of these can be prevented by lower staffing rates to protect the patient. With increased staffing it's well known that patients receive better care, hip fractures are decreased and bed sores are tremendously down.

Many nurses see these these stats monthly and we have to live with it. So are caps are part of the problem? I don't know. But are you assine enough to say lets pay less and forget the elderly and handicapped? Where will you be in a few years? What choice will you have? By then, please lay in your bed and be happy with your caps. You're paying less. But just ignore your bedsores. You didn't pay for them to be treated. It's not part of the policy.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

If it's alright to ask (again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, here), how does having more nurses /not/ raise the cost of health care?

I can only think of it like a business... if I hire more people, I'm paying out more money.

 

[poohlive]

I'm not quite sure I follow that. If you hire more nurses, the insurance companies and corporations pay for it, but because there are less nurses, tax payers have to fund out more?? That doesn't make sense to me.
How does medicare not pay for nurses, but it pays for bedsores?

And, I know how bad the government is with handing out money for anything, but corporations are notorious for keeping it for themselves, and insurance companies are even worse. But, i suppose, if there was a law that said more nurses needed to be available, then corporations and insurance companies would make that possible. Kinda scary though, that corporations and insurance companies are people figuring out how much healthcare and staff we should have.

And I am sorry, hate to bug you LDW, but I still don't understand all these terms for nurses, CNA. I know the N in there is Nurse (at least, I think it is). I'm not trying to bug you... or be mean saying, "Hey, there are all these unneeded people with different letters, maybe that's the problem." I just want to know, seems like knowledge I should have picked up somewhere along the line, but never did. I always thought a nurse was a nurse, that's that.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

If it's alright to ask (again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, here), how does having more nurses /not/ raise the cost of health care?

I can only think of it like a business... if I hire more people, I'm paying out more money.

Warning: I am not a member of the medical community and thus my statements have the possibility of being horribly fallacious. Such statements will be revealed by the sound of LDW hitting me upside the head with a frying pan.



Answer: Oh, it would. It would raise cost or at least the amount of money payed out by the hospital.

However, LDW's main point is that this relatively minor cost (when compared to hiring more doctors, fancier equipment, insurance fees, or administrator fees) would also decrease the death rates of hospitals in his area, by:

a) increasing the amount of individual care.
b) reducing the likelihood of care being given by tired and overworked nurses which woulod in turn reduce the number of accidents.
c) allowing nurses to respond to more criticals in a time frame and not let people die due to everyone being called away at a time of need.


The reason he seems so rabid to you is because he vehemently believes that healthcare and especially hospitals are not supposed to function as a business that worries endlessly about bottom-line and how things look on the year-end reports, but rather as a tool to maximize the amount of people helped and saved.

There is a similar process that occurs in the Universities where the administrators worry only about the profit of the school and give themselves fat salaries and the various departments try and scrape away as much of the budget as they can to fund the twin true goals of college, funding academic research and teaching students.





Now I wait to see if there will be a loud *CLANG*, or not.