Help, I'm being embargo'd by my readers!

[CWatson]

No, seriously. I wish I were joking about this.

So I finally get Across The Way formatted correctly and it hits Literotica store shelves. As I anticipated, it makes a bit of a splash: it's about unrequited love, but without the happy redemption at the end. It's about being stuck in that place and having to learn to live with it, in other words, which is most writers (and readers) don't care to celebrate with fiction. So my first e-mail, and many of the comments, regard whether I plan to continue the story and give Jake and Amy a happy ending. I write back to the e-mailer, "No, because a) it's a Choose-Your-Own-Ending story, which is b) yes, a bit of a cop-out, but c) it would be even more of a cop-out to provide a happy ending, meaning Option A is really best for all involved."

He writes me back:
[QUOTE="Jack Gossenz" <wolf.man@charter.net>]
I keep in touch with a total of 83 readers for Lit. and we discuss our thoughts on what stories we read and then go from there. A total of 80 do not like to be left to make up there own mind about stories and 2 undecided and 1 who does not care either way. Majority wins in all votes and you will be taken off everybody's favorite list and do not read list for any further stories. We have been doing this for about 2 years now and seems fair to us as we always vote - which is the American way of doing things and we feel it is fair and we are picking up new readers every day or so. So far there are only 9 writers that we don't read and they are all good writers and this is still a free USA and we like to be able to read what we enjoy and look forward to the stories from writers that write what we like to read and in this we have nothing personal against you, but in the way you end the story.

Thanks for your time and we know we are only a small percetage of readers, but we are going to grow and grow some more by way of email to friends of friends ect. And we do think this is a good way to do things all considered. Good luck to you and your followers and wish you all the best in the future. Thanks. Jack[/quote]
And I'm like, ...Whaaaaa? There's a parliament of Lit readers and they're voting on whether they want to read me or not? And I'm supposed to be offended that they decided they don't like me? Because, folks, let's be clear on this: I'm a good writer, and I know it. If someone is stupid enough to willingly deprive themselves of my imagination--much less 83 someones--then that person has nothing in common with me in the first place. Especially because this is one of my best stories, due to its unusual outcome and uncompromising realism. But then, I always knew it would be unpopular because it forced people to think thoughts they didn't want to. So, maybe it's is a success. Maybe it's doing exactly what it was intended to.

But regardless, it's clear that this Jack guy wants me to feel like I've made a mistake in not catering to his wishes and giving him the happy ending he wants. He wouldn't be writing me otherwise; he wouldn't be rubbing it in my face that 80 of 83 people disagree with the ending I wrote--with the story I wrote, because the ending flows logically from it and no other would have been appropriate. He wants me to feel bad for not caring about what he thinks. He wants to scold me for not selling out.

And, sad to say, it's working.

Which is why I'm here to blow this conspiracy out of the water. Partly, I think it's kinda funny--bunch of Lit nobodies actually bragging about using the "democratic process" to justify their own laziness as readers. But partly because I think it's pathetic. And partly to soothe my own injured pride. This was not an easy story to write, nor is it easy to read, but that's part of what makes it good. To be dismissed out of hand for its very best qualities... That rankles.

Oh well. That's why I call myself a niche writer. And I guess I've spared myself a lot more moron feedback in the future...

 

[Shwenn]

Send them this exceptional story by this amazing, Booker Prize winning author. I wouldn't want them accidentally reading any of her work.


"Happy Endings"
Margaret Atwood

John and Mary meet.
What happens next?
If you want a happy ending, try A.

A.

John and Mary fall in love and get married. They both have worthwhile and remunerative jobs which they find stimulating and challenging. They buy a charming house. Real estate values go up. Eventually, when they can afford live-in help, they have two children, to whom they are devoted. The children turn out well. John and Mary have a stimulating and challenging sex life and worthwhile friends. They go on fun vacations together. They retire. They both have hobbies which they find stimulating and challenging. Eventually they die. This is the end of the story.

B.

Mary falls in love with John but John doesn't fall in love with Mary. He merely uses her body for selfish pleasure and ego gratification of a tepid kind. He comes to her apartment twice a week and she cooks him dinner, you'll notice that he doesn't even consider her worth the price of a dinner out, and after he's eaten dinner he fucks her and after that he falls asleep, while she does the dishes so he won't think she's untidy, having all those dirty dishes lying around, and puts on fresh lipstick so she'll look good when he wakes up, but when he wakes up he doesn't even notice, he puts on his socks and his shorts and his pants and his shirt and his tie and his shoes, the reverse order from the one in which he took them off. He doesn't take off Mary's clothes, she takes them off herself, she acts as if she's dying for it every time, not because she likes sex exactly, she doesn't, but she wants John to think she does because if they do it often enough surely he'll get used to her, he'll come to depend on her and they will get married, but John goes out the door with hardly so much as a good-night and three days later he turns up at six o'clock and they do the whole thing over again.

Mary gets run-down. Crying is bad for your face, everyone knows that and so does Mary but she can't stop. People at work notice. Her friends tell her John is a rat, a pig, a dog, he isn't good enough for her, but she can't believe it. Inside John, she thinks, is another John, who is much nicer. This other John will emerge like a butterfly from a cocoon, a Jack from a box, a pit from a prune, if the first John is only squeezed enough.

One evening John complains about the food. He has never complained about her food before. Mary is hurt.

Her friends tell her they've seen him in a restaurant with another woman, whose name is Madge. It's not even Madge that finally gets to Mary: it's the restaurant. John has never taken Mary to a restaurant. Mary collects all the sleeping pills and aspirins she can find, and takes them and a half a bottle of sherry. You can see what kind of a woman she is by the fact that it's not even whiskey. She leaves a note for John. She hopes he'll discover her and get her to the hospital in time and repent and then they can get married, but this fails to happen and she dies.

John marries Madge and everything continues as in A.

C.

John, who is an older man, falls in love with Mary, and Mary, who is only twenty-two, feels sorry for him because he's worried about his hair falling out. She sleeps with him even though she's not in love with him. She met him at work. She's in love with someone called James, who is twenty-two also and not yet ready to settle down.

John on the contrary settled down long ago: this is what is bothering him. John has a steady, respectable job and is getting ahead in his field, but Mary isn't impressed by him, she's impressed by James, who has a motorcycle and a fabulous record collection. But James is often away on his motorcycle, being free. Freedom isn't the same for girls, so in the meantime Mary spends Thursday evenings with John. Thursdays are the only days John can get away.

John is married to a woman called Madge and they have two children, a charming house which they bought just before the real estate values went up, and hobbies which they find stimulating and challenging, when they have the time. John tells Mary how important she is to him, but of course he can't leave his wife because a commitment is a commitment. He goes on about this more than is necessary and Mary finds it boring, but older men can keep it up longer so on the whole she has a fairly good time.

One day James breezes in on his motorcycle with some top-grade California hybrid and James and Mary get higher than you'd believe possible and they climb into bed. Everything becomes very underwater, but along comes John, who has a key to Mary's apartment. He finds them stoned and entwined. He's hardly in any position to be jealous, considering Madge, but nevertheless he's overcome with despair. Finally he's middle-aged, in two years he'll be as bald as an egg and he can't stand it. He purchases a handgun, saying he needs it for target practice--this is the thin part of the plot, but it can be dealt with later--and shoots the two of them and himself.

Madge, after a suitable period of mourning, marries an understanding man called Fred and everything continues as in A, but under different names.

D.

Fred and Madge have no problems. They get along exceptionally well and are good at working out any little difficulties that may arise. But their charming house is by the seashore and one day a giant tidal wave approaches. Real estate values go down. The rest of the story is about what caused the tidal wave and how they escape from it. They do, though thousands drown, but Fred and Madge are virtuous and grateful, and continue as in A.

E.

Yes, but Fred has a bad heart. The rest of the story is about how kind and understanding they both are until Fred dies. Then Madge devotes herself to charity work until the end of A. If you like, it can be "Madge," "cancer," "guilty and confused," and "bird watching."

F.

If you think this is all too bourgeois, make John a revolutionary and Mary a counterespionage agent and see how far that gets you. Remember, this is Canada. You'll still end up with A, though in between you may get a lustful brawling saga of passionate involvement, a chronicle of our times, sort of.

You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, either deliberately fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality.

The only authentic ending is the one provided here:
John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die.

So much for endings. Beginnings are always more fun. True connoisseurs, however, are known to favor the stretch in between, since it's the hardest to do anything with.

That's about all that can be said for plots, which anyway are just one thing after another, a what and a what and a what.

Now try How and Why.

 

[sr71plt]

A. Jack is lying.

B. Screw Jack and write and post what you want to (unless you'd prefer writing lowest common-denominator pablum, in which case slap a happy ending on all of your stories).

 

[DeeZire]

CW - I read the story in question and liked it, but I can see the point of view of the disgruntled readers. The ending does seem sudden - not set up (to my unsophisticated eyes.) Perhaps if you tacked on a couple more paragraphs? Suppose the police come and arrest the guy for beating her up. Then Jake(?) sees her the next day, she agrees to go meet him somewhere for coffee - and then it ends. That way, the ending is still open, ripe for the imagination. As it is now, the ending is closed, seemingly a bit unrealistic, since, in real life, the police scenario would be the likely progression of events. (If the abuse angle is accepted as the end of her story, in other words, if she's going to keep getting beat up for the rest of her life, this is going to be a huge turnoff to readers with any sense of humanity. This could be the underlying reason for the dissatisfaction of the group.)

If you value your 83 closed-minded readers, you could tack on the police ending, resubmit the edited story, email the leader of the marauding band to make amends, and then you could all live happily ever after.

I was impressed with your skill as a writer. I'll check out the rest of your stuff. Good luck, my friend.

 

[sr71plt]

If you value your 83 closed-minded readers, you could tack on the police ending, resubmit the edited story, email the leader of the marauding band to make amends, and then you could all live happily ever after.

Read my "A." What 83 readers? Do you guys really believe anything anyone claims on an Internet site?

 

[DeeZire]

83 theoretical readers. But we get them one reader at a time, right?

I have been pondering this story a bit, and I see it this way. Readers come here to escape their everyday lives. They want to be entertained, titillated, moved emotionally, whatever. They're not all the same, but they all want something, something they get from the writer's work. In other words, they have needs, and the writer fills those needs.

I think it's perfectly valid to blow off the reader and write whatever pleases you as a writer, but if that's your approach, the reaction from the readers must be irrelevant, since you, the writer, have ignored their needs. In this case the writer wants it both ways. He wants to write his story with no regard for the reader's feelings, but he wants the reader to like it.

Perhaps I missed the point, since the writer seemed to be more concerned about the embargo than the reaction to the story, but the embargo was the result of the story, not some arbitrary judgement by some fake authority figure, so the writer should accept the fact that he alone is responsible for the reactions his story has elicited.

Re: equating a happy ending with pablum. A story ending (happy or sad) must 'feel' right, and this one doesn't, (to me, anyway.) The point isn't slapping a happy ending onto a story, the point is finessing the ending so the reader isn't left feeling cheated.

(Boy, for a mediocre writer, I sure know my shit, don't I?)

 

[freshface]

I have been pondering this story a bit, and I see it this way. Readers come here to escape their everyday lives. They want to be entertained, titillated, moved emotionally, whatever. They're not all the same, but they all want something, something they get from the writer's work. In other words, they have needs, and the writer fills those needs.

I think it's perfectly valid to blow off the reader and write whatever pleases you as a writer, but if that's your approach, the reaction from the readers must be irrelevant, since you, the writer, have ignored their needs. In this case the writer wants it both ways. He wants to write his story with no regard for the reader's feelings, but he wants the reader to like it.

Sorry, but I think these two paragraphs contradict each other. Your key phrase is that readers are not all the same. Some come looking for long sappy romances, others for stroke, and others for raw and dirty incest or fetish. It's impossible for any one story to meet every reader's needs.

Writers come here for lots of different reasons too. Some write to make the reader happy, others to stretch their abilities and try new things. The reaction of the reader is relevant, but if you write erotic horror does it mean anything when the romance audience doesn't like it? Spending all your time worrying about what the average, anonymous reader might want sounds like a great way to produce generic pablum. Isn't it better to write what you want and then attract a readership who is looking for that sort of story? The author owes the reader a story that is readable (grammar, spelling, etc.) and that provides some indication with tags, title, etc. of what the reader should expect to find. It's never good to spring vampires on the unsuspecting. After that, it's up to the readers to find the stories that meet their needs.

As for the original question, I find it hard to believe that eighty-three readers could be organized enough to vote, agree on embargoes, and then carry them out. I would think that they would all have different criteria for stories that would keep them from being very cohesive.

 

[emap]

Dee your silly, your better than me, course if you ask me a rock is a better writer than me but I got issues.

Cwatson, there are two things you gotta keep in mind when you post a story to literotica. There are at least 500000 people who read the stories on a regular basis, probably way more but we'll go with that number. Out of those readers, roughly 60% will never know your story was posted, 15% will not read it anyway, 25% will read at least some of it. Out of that 25% roughly 0.001% or less will send you feedback of any sort.

You should be happy someone sent you feedback in the first place. Second place, beleiving anything said by the feedback is a bad idea. Well Ok I admit I beleive it when I get the you made me so hard reading your story I couldn't even finish reading it before I was shooting all over, gets me damp then I call my guy and we half phone sex before I whip out my trusty old bullet vibe after hanging up. Why I call it half phone sex, I gotta keep him horny all night otherwise I don't sleep the next day.

No seriously, I swear he can fuck me in his sleep, I always wake up during, not that I am complaining.

Anyway, don't listen to what someone says in a feedback, half the time they are feeling guilty for enjoying it and take it out on you. The other half they simply didn't like the story, why they bother leaving feedback is beyond me but they do. There are some who will tell constructive cristicisms, but they are so rare they gotta be exceptions to the rule.

 

[starrkers]

Sorry CWatson, I can't help in all good conscience offer any assistance as I feel I must boycott you work on the grounds that you latest story has the same title as one I wrote for last year's Christmas contest.




yes, I'm kidding - about the boycott, not the same title

 

[CWatson]

Yeah, I don't think I'm going to take Jack seriously. I just needed to get that out of my system. And hopefully make people laugh. (Two for one!) This is certainly not the first critical e-mail I've gotten, nor will it be the last; it was just particularly manipulative.

I actually think DeeZire's two paragraphs do make sense together, but s/he forgot a key linking idea. Readers have needs which they read to fulfill; we writers try to fulfill them. But (and here's the forgotten idea) there's always a sorting process where writers and readers find the partners that will please them best. Each writer has certain services they provide; each reader has certain services they want provided. The more esoteric your services, the fewer readers you find (but, conversely, the more devoted they are since there aren't that many others in your precise subgenre). That's definitely me; I write stories that only appeal to a certain demographic--namely, the kind that likes having their expectations turned on their head, and the kind that read horrifically realistic stories so that they can go back to their everyday lives and feel like things are pretty good there. That's what I write, and I don't plan to compromise that for anybody (except myself, when I feel like it). Long story short: the stories I write will always be well-received by someone, and since I'm not writing to please anybody else, the opinions of those "anybody else" are irrelevant. It seems self-serving, but it's really honestly true: "I only care to please the people who like me already."

As to the ending seeming to come out of nowhere, that's... Not good. The story was very experimental in its way; I'm glad it came out as well as it did, but that's not a guarantee it worked. Jake's feeling that he's trapped by his love for Amy is fundamental to the story--hence the fatalistic acceptance in the end--and, with your comments in mind, it probably needs to be underlined more. As to the police issue, I think Jake is honoring Amy's wishes that the matter be kept silent. He's doing what love requires of him, even if it's not the smartest course of action. ...I should probably have mentioned this in the story. He could have an argument with Meredith over whether to call the cops. The truth is, it actually never crossed my mind while I was writing. See, this embargo guy was right, I am incompetent.

And as to the comment of me wanting to have my cake and eat it too: ...well, yes. I am only human.

Thanks to everyone for your responses. If anyone does hear from this alleged confederacy of voting dunces, let's write some flak-bait story for them and really tick them off.

 

[DeeZire]

CW - have you considered trying to get feedback on your story in the Story Discussion Circle? I believe there's some kind of formality involved in having your story discussed by the group, but it might be worth a shot.

What they tell us in the songwriting community is, if you keep getting the same feedback from your peers - for example, if everyone who hears your song says they got lost in the second verse - then it's probably a valid critique of the crafting of your song. (Notice, we're talking about craft, not appeal.) But if there is no consistency in the comments, then you could assume there is no one glaring flaw you need to go back and fix.

Your point about your fanbase brings this to light. If 80 out of 83 of them were let down by your story (as the leader of the marauding band claims) then the idea of the critique consensus would come into play, especially considering that it's people who already like your realistic writing style. However, if the 83 readers were simply a figment of one guy's imagination, then you could ignore his comments, since you can't take one comment seriously (unless it's coming from someone who's judgement you respect.)

My thought on the police angle was not for Jake to call, but for a neighbor of the girl to call in the report. This does happen in real life, when neighbors become aware of the abuse and decide to get involved, rather than just sitting idly by while a fellow human gets beat up or killed. This, to me would add more realism to the story, making it more believable, and more satisfying to the reader.

(I have had personal experience with spousal abuse, so I'm probably overreacting. Coming from a guy, that's pretty pitiful, but guys can be victims too, as I was in my little scenario.)

On happy endings: I just put an unhappy ending on the Halloween story I'm working on, which isn't exactly a wise move if you're trying to win a contest, but in the context of the story, it was the only way to go. So, CW, I'm with you on using an unhappy ending. I just think it's important how they're set up.

 

[Shwenn]

Perhaps I missed the point, since the writer seemed to be more concerned about the embargo than the reaction to the story, but the embargo was the result of the story, not some arbitrary judgement by some fake authority figure, so the writer should accept the fact that he alone is responsible for the reactions his story has elicited.

That pissed me off and I didn't write it. I'll tell you why:

What I want out of writers is for them to experiment and try new and different things. Most of these attempts will be misses. That is understandable. You put up with that because the payoff when something works is worth it.

This is how I feel about all artists. I told my wedding photographer up front. Take risks. Do weird stuff you've never tried before. Even if it all comes out horrible, it will have been worth the risk. And I did end up with some phenomenal photos unlike any other wedding photos I've ever seen. I got a lot of crap but I have a few that I think are truly art.

These dipshits want to punish him because his attempt to wander off the beaten track turned out to be a bad idea. They are trying to tell him not to experiment, not to try anything new, give us the same crap we're used to OR ELSE!

Well, fuck them. That's my stance.

 

[CWatson]

What I want out of writers is for them to experiment and try new and different things. Most of these attempts will be misses. That is understandable. You put up with that because the payoff when something works is worth it.
...
These dipshits want to punish him because his attempt to wander off the beaten track turned out to be a bad idea. They are trying to tell him not to experiment, not to try anything new, give us the same crap we're used to OR ELSE!

I think that was what got me too, in the end. The idea that I'm bad merely because I want to do something different... Well, it's a sore spot with me, since it has been applied to me non-stop, in various methods and intensities, for nearly twenty years.

As to DeeZire and your point on listening to criticism: you're quite right that I probably don't have to take it seriously. But I choose to. I have enough confidence in myself as a writer to be able to face the truth: that everything I've ever written is imperfect, and quite possibly is total crap. I know my stories inside and out, because I wrote them; but, because I wrote them, the one thing I can never judge accurately about them is their quality. So if someone has a suggestion on how to improve the quality, then of course I'm going to investigate it no matter how esoteric or unnecessary it seems. Many of them I don't implement; either I wanted it that way in the first place, or it isn't worth the effort. But what's the harm in keeping an open mind?

Anyway, vindication: somebody else wrote me praising the unusual ending. So, for one person at least, it worked.

 

[Shwenn]

I think that was what got me too, in the end. The idea that I'm bad merely because I want to do something different... Well, it's a sore spot with me, since it has been applied to me non-stop, in various methods and intensities, for nearly twenty years.

I know. Don't kid yourselves, people. These 'tards are the reason 99% of movies and television shows suck ass.