Help! From the ladies, please

[Ironmanplus]

Ok, I am 24 years old and finally entered into a sexual relationship for the first time. I remained a virgin for personal reasons.

I am agoraphobic, but 6'1, 200 lbs and am in good shape. I had a hard time socially with girls until a few years ago, and was lucky enough to meet a dream girl.

Same age, she is drop dead gorgeous, absolutely wonderful except she is an emotional wreck. Comes from a terrible home of sexual abuse. Not the worst you ever heard but pretty unpleasant. Mild physical abuse as a child followed by years of lots and lots of degrading verbal abuse until she moved out (18, would have left earlier if the law allowed), mostly from Dad.

So it is totally unfair, but she has some real baggage. She has a huge sexual appetite but is enormously hung up. Eg she finds herself really threatened by "maleness".

There is a real paradox. She loves me being dominant, but certain dominant behaviors make her flip out, and descend into an inconsolable blackness for a week or so. Then it takes a few days to get back into it sexually. It is a challenge for me because we can be doing it like jungle animals and then bam it is over. Sometimes she knows if she will be bothered and sometimes she doesn't.

She has other problems too, but sexually these are sort of some big issues. We have been together for 6 months and all the problems are causing us to take a break. She is in counseling again, blah blah.

I am totally sympathetic, and all I want to do is understand her better so that we can work around this stuff.

My question (finally), is what in the world happens in a girl's brain during intercourse? She is really sensitive to being degraded, and frankly when it gets to groovin' it is hard to tell the difference between dominance and degredation.

From a male perspective, for me, it kind of feels good to do something mildly degrading to her. I don't think less of her, but when riding the line between dominance and degrading her I like it. I am not trying to justify that, just bring it up.

I would not tell her this now. But the reason I bring it up, is when we start getting to that line she often likes it too.

What's going on girls? For a straight guy like me, the thought of being penetrated is among the most revolting thoughts in the world, but apparently you ladies love it?

Why is that? More specifically, from a psychological perspective, what is happening your head when you're getting nailed, ie specifically intercourse?

I really think it would help if I could get a handle on this. She cannot talk about it, and this stuff never crossed my mind until I started having sex with her.

Any help would be great.

 

[sunandshadow]

I don't think I can speculate about what goes on in the head of someone who grew up being abused, or whether it's a good idea to act dominant or borderline degrading toward such a person. But, there's nothing inherently submissive or degrading about being penetrated. It's like sucking on a popsicle or something - you're supposed to put food in your mouth, it feels satisfying and is tasty. Women are supposed to have penises in their vaginas, it feels good and is satisfying in much the same way putting their penis into something is satisfying to a man. A vagina is sort of like an inside-out penis, they like the same thing just in the reverse direction.

 

[Ironmanplus]

I guess the point is that when intercourse gets to a certain intensity, a man starts to feel dominant, I would imagine I'm not alone. When it gets a little higher it starts to feel more... something.

I can describe what goes through my head, was curious what goes through a woman's head. I understand there is physical pleasure, am more interested in the psychological component. It may help me understand her boundaries a little better.

 

[emap]

Well for that you are going to have to talk to her and maybe her shrink.

As for why being called a dirty slut whore is wonderful during sex I can't really tell you, I just know I like it then. See there is a difference between not being horny, being a little horny and full blown dammit fuck me now horny. What excites me during each of those is different with certain similarities but not always. Like when I'm not horny I don't want to see his dick, I really don't want him shoving it in. However when I'm between a little horny and full blown horny, I want him on top of me, when I am at full blown horny he is either doing me already or I am raping him, which has never come up don't ask.

I don't think I have ever seen a guy not horny, there seems to be asleep and horny. I do have a point though, when it comes to her being fully into fuck me now alot of things she would never want to be told are the hottest things on the planet to hear. It is up to you to talk to her and find out what is only heat of the moment and never ever mention. Nobody can help with that besides her and possibly her shrink if he will say anything, he probably won't.

 

[silverwhisper]

dude, i don't think it's useful to ask folks here what happens generally in women's minds, given that you're looking for insight into what's going on in your girlfriend's head specifically. i would suggest that, if she's open to it, you might want to see how she feels about you joining her at one of her counseling sessions.

also: what happens when you aren't dominant in the bedroom? is she able to get off then?

ed

 

[newbiebabe]

I second that...

I agree with Silver Whisper in that you should see if she is possibly open to having you attend some of her counseling sessions with her and maybe then the focus can be the two of you and these issues.

As to being dominated, if you are referring to talking to her and calling her a slut, bitch, etc. I have to say that I am not into that either. I understand others enjoy it and it enhances the pleasure for them but when I am having what I consider to be the most loving experience in my life with my SO, husband or whomever, I do not want to hear those words. Actually not crazy about them normally either but can abide them at other times.

These may also be words she heard often in the abusive situation she was in so it may trigger something there also.

You have a unique situation and one that must be handled with care as you said this girl is emotionally wounded. Those wounds will need to be healed and healing takes time, love and patience. If you can stick in there with her until this happens and give her all of those things, then it will be well worth it for you. If you cannot, do not add to her wounds, cut the ties now. I don't mean to be harsh but her well being is at stake and I tend to want to protect the underdog.

 

[sterculius]

Not being a psychologist, I don't have any useful input regarding your girlfriend's issues. But the question of the power dynamic as it pertains to sexuality has always interested me. I'm not talking about abusive humiliation or degradation here but the yin yang, passive vs. active aspect of gender roles. Kind of like dancing where one partner (usually the guy) is the leader. As a male, I can relate to and enjoy being the penetrater, obeying the biological imperative to overpower and bury my seed as deeply as possible. But as a bisexual, I can enjoy the complementary, receptive role of enveloping a hard cock buried deep in my throat or in my ass. The male animal is really just a reworked female, adapted to enhance genetic diversity and at some level I think I can identify with both functions.

 

[Ironmanplus]

First, I have attended sessions with her, and trust me this kind of talk is miles and miles away.

As far as dominance is concerned we're largely talking about physical acts. I do talk but it is mild stuff, she really likes it and it has not been problematic.

It only prompted me to wonder what it is like mentally for a girl who likes doggystyle, face fucking, that sort of thing. She does indeed get off on that stuff, but I may transfer to some variation and then it's all over. I don't really get it and would just like to accommodate her more because I am very sympathetic to her.

For example, I can face fuck her almost as hard as I want, and she digs it, but if I was to rub my cock on her face she'll leave the room in tears. I'm not complaining just trying to figure out what I can. She is completely unable to talk about it.

I'm not really trying to psychoanalyze her here, I am more interested in learning how girls here would describe what is happening to them emotionally when stuff like this is happening. I shared the story just to explain why I am interested.

 

[intriguess]

There is a difference between feeling used and feeling safe, and it seems that's the line your dealing with. There are times when I'm on bottom that I feel trapped, and sometimes I just felt incredibly protected. I'd say it's a trust issue, as far as suggestions, perhaps watch porn and see her reactions that way you can gauge beforehand what she'll like and what will make her push you away. Sweet slut is a far different term than dirty bitch, so if your going for words mix up the tender with the demeaning, to take any edge off.

Just my two cents.

 

[subwannabe]

I have to ask how you got started with her in domination. You say she likes it, but, is this something she really wanted to do from the beginning or did you just kind of do it and it seemed like she liked it? She is fucked up in the head and trying to untangle that mess is probably impossible, even for a shrink. She may very well feel low self esteem and that part of her likes being dominated because it reaffirms her feelings of low self worth while at other times she goes into shut down mode because it brings back unpleasant memories. It is almost impossible to work your way through these feelings.

You waited longer than most to lose your virginity and now the first person you have a real sexual relationship with is, well, to put in bluntly, nuts. My advice is to keep this person as a casual friend (no sex involved) and sprout your wings and try to find a relationship with someone who doesn't come with this much baggage. If you try to have a permanent life long relationship with this person it is going to be a long and painful road.

 

[Ironmanplus]

Honestly I am more interested in learning what goes through a woman's head during intercourse. As a guy, I can't relate to it, psychologically it is unimaginable to me.

I only shared my gf story because until her I had never thought about it before (she isn't able to talk about it) and it may be of tangential benefit for current problems.

I probably was not very clear in my original post. I appreciate the concern but I think she is doing what can be done in real life.

 

[emap]

What a woman thinks during sex is well different for every one. There isn't one big truth besides maybe oh yes I love him inside of me.

I am going to touch on something you mention sending her flying from the room. Facefucking is you taking your pleasure with her, I love it myself. Granted it has a big helping of dominance and submission to it, but really it's more along the lines of he loves me down here so much he can't control himself and that is a huge boost to the old ego.

Rubbing your dick all over her face on the other hand is humiliation, something along the lines of master marking his territory, if she was getting sexually abused chances are good the abuser did that to her. Generally that is part of the abuse pattern, break down the will so they don't talk about it and let them do it more.

Never ever do what you see in porn with her, for the most part porn degrades the woman who is starring. I don't know why but well there you go apparently most guys deep down want a wife who is submissive to his every desire.

 

[Ironmanplus]

emap, I appreciate your reply. I realize that no one can speak for an entire gender, so in lieu of that any lady who would care to speak for her own experience would be helpful.

Re some of your comments, I get confused. Face fucking and doggystyle seem much more "degrading" than rubbing myself on her face. I rub myself on other parts of her body and she likes it, but not on her face. She loves it on her breasts. She likes me cumming on her face as well. I don't get it. I do not begrudge her any of this, just talking to people there is usually a certain logic to their boundaries, they may be a certain "type" and I can't figure out hers. The reason it is such a huge issue is that one wrong move and there are huge consequences.

The last one was we were doing it and I moved her leg in a certain way (rather minimal move IMO), she stopped and curled up in a ball sobbing. She doesn't get upset with me but it upsets her nonetheless. As far as intercourse goes she loves going really far, I can really give it to her but one wrong move and that's it.

I guess the one thing I left out is she really wants me to take charge. In everything, from touching to kissing and beyond. Given the situation my instincts would be to be more 50/50 and ease into things but she doesn't want to do it. If I want her to blow me I have to guide her to it. Me doing that makes her nearly faint. That's ok, but when you are always wondering what's behind door number 2 it's a little stressful.

And on top of everything she doesn't understand what I'm concerned about! If we're going at it and I make her cry what's the big deal! I love her though.

I guess if anyone is interested in this we can talk about it, but what this brings up for me is the psychology of penetration, this whole experience just opened the whole thing up for me. I can't relate to the female at all. I feel like if I could I could connect with a woman on a much deeper level.

 

[Bandit58]

This thread may be helpful. It's long, but well worth the read:

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=119289

There are a lot of posts about various triggers which can "flash" a person back into the bad places and experiences of their pasts. It can be as simple as a touch in a certain place, or even just a word or phrase. Your girlfriend sounds like she needs a LOT of help. I would back off on the sexual aspect of your relationship (for now anyway) so that she can get herself sorted out.

It also worries me that she doesn't want to talk with you about what's happened to her. It's quite understandable, but you need to know what's going on in her head so you don't inadvertently trigger her.

I would also like to point out there's a HUGE difference between dominance and degradation. I'm in a D/s relationship and although there is name calling (during sex) and face fucking I find NONE of that degrading in any way. I am a survivor of 23 years of emotional abuse. Humiliation and degradation are hard limits for me. Sir concentrates on building up my self esteem not tearing it down.

You can take control without degrading a person. If certain words cause her to flip out, then avoid them. You can issue instructions in a calm authoritative voice and a non-threatening tone. You don't have to be rough with your actions. Firm and controlled works for me

 

[Ironmanplus]

That is a powerful thread.

Her problems go somewhat farther I am afraid. She could be manic depressive or borderline personality, or something. A wide ranging treatment is being attempted.

I put a stop to the sex, despite the epic quality I couldn't watch what it was doing to her. If things work out I feel like I would have all the patience in the world with her, I am totally sympathetic to her.

Having said that, do you feel comfortable talking about how intercourse is for you? When your man gets going what kind of thoughts go through your head, if you don't mind.

 

[aari13]

A way to word it, that "should" work across the board for most women is this: There is a difference between being forced to do something you WANT to do and being forced to do something you DON'T want to do.

For you the problem is you don't know whats going on in her head so you have no way of knowing what she really does or does not want. Most women, if a man pushed a boundary would just say no, stop, do this instead. For yours, her boundaries are so sensitive that her reaction is much more emotional.


Another example is how / when something is done. If I'm at a bar with a guy I like and he smacks my bottom, I may swat at him playfully, but he and I both know I was ok with it. If a guy I don't know does it, or a guy i like does it in the office, or its done in front of my family, then yeah it would fall more to the degrading side because of appropriateness. That example doesn't directly relate but I hope maybe its helpful anyway.

Best of luck to you, this sounds like quite a difficult situation. Just be careful it doesn't change YOUR opinion of sex or women, because this is just one situation and every one is different... and sex is normally not this difficult.

 

[aari13]

Also, to answer the "what goes through women's heads" part...

For me, I'm usually not doing a whole lot of thinking. It's more mentally directing what I'd like him to be doing, or thinking about what I'm about to be doing to him. Its a lot more action and reaction, and during really good sex I have no thought process, I just think/say things that directs my man as far as speed or whatever.

 

[Mirroku]

Well, for me when my man gets me going, he really tries to make me feel amazing before hand.
Once we start getting further into the situation we like to take turns with dominance, but honestly, I love when he's dominant, and I feel safe about it because... As much as I love a little "abuse" and "useage" we've established rules of conduct as well. I think the reason I don't feel scared during this time is because we have a system that if I really dont like what is happening or vice versa, we will say something like a codeword.
I like it when my man uses me and is dominant for a couple reasons: 1. I feel like I'm being useful, and like I have a purpose for that period of time. 2. I feel good making him feel good and 3. Well... I don't see him often and the thought of him finally holding me in his arms and penetrating me, making me feel full... Feels amazing when it finally comes to pass.
Mind you, we also use alot of foreplay, and during the first and the end of it, he makes sure I feel protected and loved by him and that I know I belong to him - it makes me feel happy and wanted.
Sometimes a shower to relax after feels wonderful too.

As for degradation? I don't like it outside of the bedroom, but for whatever reason a little degradation while I'm in a sexual mood turns me on. I'm not too sure why. I just know as long as it isn't THROUGLY insulting and he knows already what he can and cant call me etc.
It's not so bad.

Sorry it's so long but I hope it helps. I know I can't speak for all the women of the world but that's just my two cents

 

[Ironmanplus]

Thanks you two. My upbringing you could describe as somewhat feminist, ie women are not to be used like a piece of meat, respect women, etc.

So when I started having sex the kinds of things that happened and the feelings I had were unexpected. The gf I have sort of makes it a lot more complicated. I feel like I will have to change some attitudes.

 

[sexysharonmilf]

See a licensed sex therapist or a therapist that handles such things first by herself then as a couple.

I would suggest her be on top. Let her control the action. Console and comfort her that you are not them. I recommend the first and be understanding.

 

[emap]

I guess i didn't say it well enough for you. Rubbing your dick on her face doesn't feel all that great for her and probably not you, there is only two reasons to do that, to clean your juices off your dick after or to 'mark' her as your property.

I guess what you did not understand is that rubbing a dick on someone's face is more symbolic than anything else. It may feel nice to you but to her it serves no purpose than to put your scent on her. In a simpler form, it's more or less akin to a dog pissing on the edge of his territory, marking where he is lord and master.

She likes you rubbing your dick between her breasts because it feels nice, simple as that. It is also in a way giving her control over you because you want her so badly you can't even get between her legs.

Most likely she likes you ordering her around because it gives her leeway, if you say get on your hands and knees and stick your butt high and she doesn't want anal or doggy she doesn't have to do it. Grabbing her and moving her on the other hand is well akin to rape, you are not giving her a choice you are simply forcing the matter.

I guess I may as well explain what it is like for a victim of sexual abuse. The abuser does not ask, does not normally make sure she is in the mood for sex or ready, they simply place them in the position they want, remove any clothing they need to and proceed to have sex. Sometimes there are words spoken, sometimes it's derogatory, slut bitch whore, sometimes not, oh honey your pussy is so tight. In no way does the victim get to decide what position to have sex in, they don't get to decide if there will be sex, they are simply forced.

The younger the victim actually the better unless it is an ongoing process. Usually sexual abuse within a family is an ongoing process until something happens that it is found out, generally by someone not in the family. The methods used to combat the abuse are internal, sometimes this leads to multiple personality disorder, sometimes this leads to nympho qualities.

Basically, you can have sex with her, you can order her to have sex in whichever way she finds nice. You cannot do anything that does not have a sexual connotation. Titfucking is good, rubbing your dick on her face is bad. It is bad because of above and even when your dick is covered in your juices, best to offer it to her mouth. If her leg is under you and not feeling good, raise up and ask her to move it, otherwise you are forcing the issue and sliding her back into her defensive technique. Be glad it is curling up and crying or running away, some victims end up liking sex so much they don't know when to not have sex. Some victims hate sex, hate men and basically end up being shut ins because there are men everywhere.

 

[Ironmanplus]

Well to be clear, I do not do anything she doesn't want me to do (if I know ahead of time) and I don't complain about it, and it doesn't really bother me. For me this is my first sex partner so of course there has been a lot of exploration and discovery.

What I am finding is there appears to be a lot of subjectivity in what is ok and not ok in sex and it varies from person to person. Some people seem to have a consistency to their boundaries and some don't, and it's hard not to be curious.

Her abuse issues are over my head, no question. She is in the treatment process. I have no idea what the outcome will be. I am there for her if she needs it.

In the meantime the experiences I have had that are unique to her have triggered some questions for me. She likes me to take control and move her around in bed, but certain movements she apparently does not like and does not tell me about in advance. For me, it makes me wonder where the disparate rules match up.

For me the whole act of intercourse feels like male domination of the female, something that instinctively feels funny with my background. It makes me curious what it is like on the other end of the stick, if you will.

 

[downerbeautiful]

I'm glad to see that someone else suggested joining her counseling sessions.

And I wasn't abused, but I'm in a similar paradox.

I'm all about equal rights and status for women. I am an equal partner in my relationship (i.e. I am NOT the woman BEHIND the man, I AM the woman BESIDE the man.). However, my ultimate fantasy (FANTASY - keep that in mind) is rape. Why? It's the ultimate display of male dominance over women. [generalizing] Yes, women are intellectually more savvy and powerful. Men are more physically aggressive, impressive, and strong. During "meaningful sex," women hit their high points because sex is much more mentally involved.

During a good fuck, I dare say men excel because it's more physical than mental. I believe there is a primal urge to have men dominate (sexually) because they're stronger and, in survival of the fittest speak, a stronger and more aggressive man is more likely to survive and his children are more likely to not be pussies. Just sayin' ...

Stronger, more aggressive men who LIKE their women, seem more apt to mobilize the troops if ever his woman is slandered, degraded, violated, et cetera, by someone else. That's security, especially when she comes from a place where the man who SHOULD have stood up for her was the one abusing her...

I am unsure if any of that will help you, but that's how I view rough, degrading sex...

 

[Firebrain]

For me, it makes me wonder where the disparate rules match up.

Therein lies your entire problem. If she won't talk to you, you're a bit stuffed really. The kind of sex you're talking about is about pushing boundaries; not knowing where yours lie is kind of part of the fun, but having random landmines dotted about so to speak is not.

If it were me, I would want to know exactly what had happened to her so that I could avoid doing the same things. Of course, that would bring a whole new set of emotions into the mix; I might get turned off entirely with the worry of it, or simply knowing that someone forced her to do those things. Or worse, in a weird way, it might actually turn me on (I speak as someone who's been abused in this fashion, by the way). So you're in a bit of a catch 22.

How various women feel about sex is pretty irrelevant here - we're all individuals and just skimming through Lit, you can observe the breadth of our desires. Leave the pop-psychology out of it; a girl who wants to call a man Daddy doesn't always have an absent father or God-like, wonder-father; a girl who wants to be raped doesn't always suffer from an inferiority complex. Our buttons are chemical and there are sometimes no words to describe them (which I imagine is part of the problem your girlfriend has).

You could, indeed, sit in on her counselling sessions - although that wouldn't have helped me, to be honest. Counselling was about me and I wanted nobody else in the room. I would have felt very inhibited.

Sorry, that's not of much help...but I don't ultimately see what you can do if she won't talk to you, besides stick it out for a while.

 

[Firebrain]

I guess i didn't say it well enough for you. Rubbing your dick on her face doesn't feel all that great for her and probably not you, there is only two reasons to do that, to clean your juices off your dick after or to 'mark' her as your property.

I guess what you did not understand is that rubbing a dick on someone's face is more symbolic than anything else. It may feel nice to you but to her it serves no purpose than to put your scent on her. In a simpler form, it's more or less akin to a dog pissing on the edge of his territory, marking where he is lord and master.

There are an awful lot of assumptions and generalisations there. All acts in sex can be symbolic, but equally, sometimes they aren't. They don't call Freud a quack these days for nothing