Help Editioning

[Aaron Dazer]

I’m looking for in help someone who can assist in the readability of my work. Content not requested but defiantly accepted. Mostly help with Grammar, Spelling and consistency. types include Sci-fi Fantasy with nonconsent/mindcontrol elements. My stories page is linked. Please pm or post here if interested.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Grammar help

I would not mind helping in the sense of taking a few paragraphs, pointing out grammatical issues, and explaining the rules governing them so that you can better examine the rest of the piece yourself. If, however, you would like someone to edit the entire piece for you, I would prefer not to. Let me know if you're interested in the former.

Shanglan

 

[snooper]

Sorry. Ignore this. I can't really say what I think to a newbie asking for help.

 

[Aaron Dazer]

newbie?

You can delete your post. Obviously you had something to say or you would have. You can't offend me, so say it.


Complements widen your head. Criticism your foundation. What happens if your head is too big for your foundation?

 

[HawaiiBill]

Re: newbie?

You can't offend me, so say it.

No one here wants to offend you.

But editors are volunteers and you are asking for a
great deal of work.

My suggestion to you would be to enroll in an adult
education writing course. Not knowing where you live,
it's impossible for me to know if that is available to you
but, in my opinion, that would be the best course if
you are serious about writing.

Writing well is very hard work.That is, to write in a
way that others enjoy reading your work is very difficult.
You will need some professional help. Nothing wrong
with that.

 

[Aaron Dazer]

Actually Snooper who obviously had something to say and implied I wasn’t worth the time to express it to offended me. I was subtly implying that what he could say about my writing wouldn’t offend me, but what he was doing did. I actually understand his side of the Newbie argument and I acknowledge my lack of standing in the forum. I was somewhat standing up to it.

You how ever Hawaiibill obviously attempted to take my statement “you cant offend me” and test it. “Adult education writing course.” Seriously how can that not be offensive? Criticism would be “you need to seriously address your Grammar. Maybe a workshop.” I had to try my best to not be insulted with what you wrote and take the wisdom in it. What did you read of mine to draw such a conclusion? I’m assuming you don’t understand what Adult Education implies.

I was asking for a little help editing not education. Isn’t this the Forum for that? I poke fun at my own lack of perfection of the English language. Namely because most my errors lie in the fact I’ve very proficient typing skills and try to type at dictation speed which turns out many errors. If you look at my two Stories Mosquitoes Chapter 1 and 2 you’ll notice quite a difference in structure. I feel a lot of the first part of the story, lost flow due to the amount of time I used to edit it and get help editing it. Yes I used the Volunteer editor program. What is posted of the First Chapter is a 5th draft. The Second chapter was only the 2nd draft and only I looked at it. The Second chapter was essentially a dictation corrected for spelling and basic grammar. If I were to work with an editor I wouldn’t ask for complete correction to grammar from dictation. That is too much work to ask unless paid.

I feel the purpose of LIT is to share work with people, to enjoy it not grade it. Painstakingly picking away at how it is written isn’t what I call fun.

 

[minsue]

I'm sure I'll regret getting in the middle of this, but I'm honestly curious. . .

What does Adult Education imply?


While I'm here, I'd might as well set one thing straight: Snooper could not have deleted his post. You cannot delete posts entirely, only edit what is in them. It is not uncommon to see edited posts containing nothing but a period because that is the closest that one can come to deleting.

 

[gystex]

Re: Re: newbie?

No one here wants to offend you.

But editors are volunteers and you are asking for a
great deal of work.

Why on Earth would anyone become a volunteer editor and then complain when someone asks you do do a lot of work with no return? That's what a "volunteer" is. Anyone who wants to be paid to do editing should go get a job as a professional editor - fair warning, though, the standards are a trifle higher.

Mr. Dazer is being entirely appropriate in asking for help in this forum. That's what it's for. He should be welcomed here and those of us who became volunteer editors ought to be jumping at the chance to aid him. What this forum is NOT for is insulting and lashing out at people who come here asking for help.

Right now, my editor profile says that I'm not accepting stories to edit, because I have a big project I'm working on (nothing to do with Literotica, something to do with my "real life"). However, Mr. Dazer deserves a better reception and response than he's gotten. Therefore, Aaron (may I call you that?) I will volunteer to edit one of your stories (I regret that I really don't have time to do more than one right now). I will gladly look it over for grammar, spelling, consistancy, and content. I will reply with copius notes and helpful suggestions.

If you wish to take me up on this, Aaron, contact me via E-mail at gystex@hotmail.com and send along the story you'd like me to look over in txt, rtf, doc, or html format. Give me two to four days, depending on the length of the story, and I'll get back with you.

(BTW - I notice you've written poetry as well. That's not my area of expertise, so I can't help you with those, just the stories).

 

[BlackShanglan]

Re: Re: newbie?

No one here wants to offend you.

But editors are volunteers and you are asking for a
great deal of work.

My suggestion to you would be to enroll in an adult
education writing course. Not knowing where you live,
it's impossible for me to know if that is available to you
but, in my opinion, that would be the best course if
you are serious about writing.

Writing well is very hard work.That is, to write in a
way that others enjoy reading your work is very difficult.
You will need some professional help. Nothing wrong
with that.

I see nothing offensive in this. "Adult education" implies, surprisingly enough, adults being educated. Is there something inherently offensive about learning? HawaiiBill made a thoroughly reasonable suggestion, which was to seek further instruction in writing in order to write. How this is any more offensive than suggesting that a dance class would be a good place to learn to dance, or a music academy a good place to learn to sing, is entirely beyond me.

I did offer to help with this story. However, I limited my offer, and I imagine that it is because I saw the same things that HawaiiBill saw. I opened one of the stories linked for review and read the first paragraph. It is five sentences in length. Only one of those sentences was free of grammatical errors and typoes, and three of them were various forms of run-on sentences. To have so many severe grammatical flaws so close together indicates to me that the writer may not understand all of the rules governing the structure and punctuation of sentences. As these rules are learned rather than genetically transmitted, the proper way to aquire knowledge of them is in fact to study them. A classroom environment is often the best way to do so, as it puts the writer in contact with a knowledgable professional capable of guiding him or her through the intricacies and convolutions of English grammar. HawaiiBill's suggestion is, in fact, the only one that makes sense for anyone honestly interested in becoming a better writer.

I was asking for a little help editing not education.

Why on Earth not? Do you not aspire to communicate your ideas clearly and appropriately? Learning the rules properly is the only way to free yourself from constantly relying other people to correct your work for you.

I feel the purpose of LIT is to share work with people, to enjoy it not grade it. Painstakingly picking away at how it is written isn’t what I call fun.

Well, I would hardly call it fun either, which is why I don't volunteer as an editor to correct other peoples' grammatical errors. I can imagine nothing more tedious. But - and I do beg your pardon if I misinterpret this - did you not specifically ask for

Mostly help with Grammar, Spelling and consistency

?

It seems rather unsporting to ask for grammatical help, then complain about people commenting on your grammar. HawaiiBill made a useful suggestion about how to improve your grammar. Whether you choose to take the education path or not, I can't imagine why you are taking this as an attack upon you personally.

Shanglan

 

[HawaiiBill]

Re: Re: Re: newbie?

Mr. Dazer is being entirely appropriate in asking for help in this forum. That's what it's for.

No. Editor's Forum is not a place to ask for editing help. The place to ask for help is on the listing of volunteer editors posted on Literotica with the types of work each volunteer likes or wants to do.

Got it? We've had polite inquiries here by writers with special questions both about their work and about writing in general. Those are welcome. 'Polite' is the operative word.

Aaron Dazer might be better off to look in the masochist listings because, from all I've seen, it won't be possible for any other type of person to enjoy working with him.

Oh, gystex, while i'm here, 'copius' is spelled 'copious.'

 

[gystex]

Re: Re: Re: Re: newbie?

No. Editor's Forum is not a place to ask for editing help. The place to ask for help is on the listing of volunteer editors posted on Literotica with the types of work each volunteer likes or wants to do.

Got it? We've had polite inquiries here by writers with special questions both about their work and about writing in general. Those are welcome. 'Polite' is the operative word.

Aaron Dazer might be better off to look in the masochist listings because, from all I've seen, it won't be possible for any other type of person to enjoy working with him.

Oh, gystex, while i'm here, 'copius' is spelled 'copious.'

Read the rules yourself:

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=175648

According to KillerMuffin, the moderator of this forum, seeking editors here is perfectly acceptable and a large part of what this forum is for. Got it?

And I'd be pleased to work with someone who, as far as I can tell, DID politely ask for help and then got a bunch of rude responses telling him to look elsewhere. There are probably dozens who didn't feel like helping him and let him know by simply remaining silent; learn from their example. Working with you, now that's something I'd prefer to avoid (I'm sure the feeling is mutual).

Thank you for correcting my spelling. Your postings aren't letter-perfect either, but I'll refrain from pointing out where because I'm sure you can figure it out.

 

[snooper]

Re: newbie?

You can delete your post. ...

Er, no you can't. Only a moderator can do that.

... Obviously you had something to say or you would have. You can't offend me, so say it. ...

I said it, but then I reread what I had said some hours later and decided I was just carping. There is no reason why a writer who is highly competent should not choose to post a request which is so ungrammatical and badly spelled as to be nearing incomprehensibility.

... Complements widen your head. Criticism your foundation. What happens if your head is too big for your foundation?

When your head is too big for your foundation you confuse complements with compliments, perhaps?

Originally posted by HawaiiBill
... 'Polite' is the operative word.

Just so. May I ask, most politely, whether you ever read your own postings, especially in the context of this sage advice?

 

[Aaron Dazer]

First of all Snooper I’d like quote my self toward you
"I actually understand his side of the Newbie argument and I acknowledge my lack of standing in the forum. " and Snooper your Right, my bad you used to be able to delete your own Post but now it seems to be disabled even thought the Option is still on the Edit post page. That was the Old days. FYI look at my Join Year.

"When your head is too big for your foundation you confuse complements with compliments, perhaps?"

No you fall on your face and show your Ass side to the world.


Seconded it seems that only Gystex understood what was offensive. Let me detail.

Man one walks into a room with the Door Titled "Get Help Here." He reads the fine print on the side of the door detailing the type of help offered. He conforms that his is listed. He enters Door.

Man one: "Hello can you look at this for me."

Man Two: "Sorry don't know you not worth my time." Bit stuck-up but understandable.

Man Three: "Sure, um.. On seconded Thought you need to go back to grade school. You are beyond Helping. Go back out the way you came and go down the hall till you get to door saying, ‘Remedial skills learned here.’"

Man one: "Well thanks for the advise but I just asked if you could look at it."

minsue, Adult Education is for Adults that either missed or Dropped out of grade school. Suggesting you need them implies to me not that you could work on an academic skill, but lack proper Education. My whole point before was that I wasn’t Offended, but it was hard not to be. Asking for help and the reply being “No your too uneducated.” is a hard pill to swallow.

Gystex seems to be the only one else that sees the way you all came across.

BlackShanglan asked me "Why on earth not." in reference to expanding education. My response is, because that's not what I was asking for. Well I was actually on a different Thread. That’s not what I asked here. I see no problem with offering advice. But what do you call Criticism that isn’t warranted or asked for? Me I call it rude.


Ok and opening my Links page what story are you looking at BlackShanglan? Give Mosquitoes Chapter 1 a look. Of what’s listed that’s the only one I tried to be grammatically accurate with.

 

[Aaron Dazer]

Gystex thank you very much for the offer, may take you up on it later, however i did get a few responses to my request for an editor.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Man Two: "Sorry don't know you not worth my time." Bit stuck-up but understandable.

How deeply exciting. May I assume, from the order of posted responses, that I am intended to be Man Two?

I'm intrigued at the means by which you extracted the words "not worth my time" from an offer to supply assistance bounded only by the limits imposed by time and the text itself. I thank you kindly for your assessment of me as "stuck-up" - a person of gentle breeding always appreciates such compliments, especially those based on a three-sentence post - but confess my growing bafflement with the number of things that appear to offend you.

minsue, Adult Education is for Adults that either missed or Dropped out of grade school. Suggesting you need them implies to me not that you could work on an academic skill, but lack proper Education. My whole point before was that I wasn’t Offended, but it was hard not to be. Asking for help and the reply being “No your too uneducated.” is a hard pill to swallow.

Whether one likes the advice one receives tends (in my humble opinion) to be determined by two factors. The first is the way in which the advice is delivered. HawaiiBill delivered his advice in a polite, tactful tone, and I think he has nothing to apologize for. Goodness knows I've seen much worse - the phrase "Sorry, I can't read this gibberish" sticks my mind as my personal favorite, delivered by a less than appreciative reader of my own work.

The second element govering how one receives advice is, of course, one's perception of oneself and of the possible shortcomings such advice may suggest. The suggestion that one attempt adult education might, to some, imply that one's linguistic skills are not especially refined. However, if this is in fact the case, it is pointless to complain about the offer - gently worded - of ways to amend the difficulty. The sting, undoubtedly, is from the truth of the observation - but one is then left with the choices of remedying the problem, or complaining about the observation. The latter course is notoriously fruitless.

BlackShanglan asked me "Why on earth not." in reference to expanding education. My response is, because that's not what I was asking for. Well I was actually on a different Thread. That’s not what I asked here. I see no problem with offering advice. But what do you call Criticism that isn’t warranted or asked for? Me I call it rude.

Again, I can only re-direct you to your own comments, which seem continually to slip your mind. You did ask for:

Mostly help with Grammar, Spelling and consistency.

That the criticism was, in fact, asked for seems beyond debate. That it was, additionally, warranted, is painful, but actual. In fact, you say that you have yourself asked for such advice on another thread. Why rail about receiving here what you have already asked for elsewhere?

Shanglan

 

[Aaron Dazer]

No Man too was in reference to Snooper. whom i was playfull with in my responses.

Ok this is going on too long Bottem line as simple as i can explain it.

I asked for help editing and was told to go get Educated.

No matter how “Polite” it was said that’s what happened.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I asked for help editing and was told to go get Educated.

No matter how “Polite” it was said that’s what happened.

Agreed. I just can't see why it bothers you. *shrug*

Shanglan

 

[Aaron Dazer]

Agreed. I just can't see why it bothers you. *shrug*

Shanglan

Wasn't the Food but the the table and plate.

 

[GingerV]

Wasn't the Food but the the table and plate.

Wow, comment from an innocent bystander here, but I really like that phrase. Captures the meaning entirely. It sounds like a folk saying, can I ask what language it's translated from? Seems like something my best friend's Ukrainian grandmother would say.

Having said that may I offer a well blown raspberry on behalf of the many adult students I've taught or tutored over the years in various subjects? The idea that Adult Education, or even Remedial Education is inherently insulting is, well, insulting. I've known people go back to school not to learn something they missed, but rather brush up on something that had gotten rusty through disuse. Or to expand the potential they graduated highschool or college with. Sure, some were dropouts coming back to pick up the slack. But in a lot of ways, that humbling moment when they walk into the room and admit they need instruction is the one that most shows their strength and character.

I don't waste my pity on the ignorant. I save it for those who are too afraid of their own ignorance to seek knowledge.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled misunderstanding.

 

[Aaron Dazer]

Wow, comment from an innocent bystander here, but I really like that phrase. Captures the meaning entirely. It sounds like a folk saying, can I ask what language it's translated from? Seems like something my best friend's Ukrainian grandmother would say.

Having said that may I offer a well blown raspberry on behalf of the many adult students I've taught or tutored over the years in various subjects? The idea that Adult Education, or even Remedial Education is inherently insulting is, well, insulting. I've known people go back to school not to learn something they missed, but rather brush up on something that had gotten rusty through disuse. Or to expand the potential they graduated highschool or college with. Sure, some were dropouts coming back to pick up the slack. But in a lot of ways, that humbling moment when they walk into the room and admit they need instruction is the one that most shows their strength and character.

I don't waste my pity on the ignorant. I save it for those who are too afraid of their own ignorance to seek knowledge.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled misunderstanding.

First of all i just Coined that Phrase.

Ok i'm the Insulting one here.

Sorry if when I implied, Adult Education is Remedial, I offended anyone. I live in Southern California where Adult Education is Typically for Immigrants who don’t know English.

I apologize to anyone with holes in their Education for whatever reason where offended by this. But GingerV would you tell any of them that they needed it?

Admitting a deficiency is Strength
Pointing one out is an Insult.

 

[GingerV]

Appology accepted on behalf of my students past and present, none of whom were insulted as they didn't realize their honor was being defended . All friends again.

And honestly, I'm afraid that I have suggested that people might be interested in availing themselves of classes if they're looking to improve some aspect of their mental toolbox. Maybe it's the way I do it, or some kind of body language that doesn't cross the screen well, but I've never once had one be offended by it. Then again, I may have more of an opportunity to guage their potential reactions to such a suggestion IRL. I may have filtered out those I thought might be offended.

Nonetheless, I don't think Bill meant anything other than that there are damned good courses out there for people who want to become professional writers, or just impress our email correspondants. No more offense intended than when you said what you did.

So, if all feathers are now smoothed, I'll end by saying I'm damned jealous. I wish I could coin phrases like that. I'm gonna steal it shamelessly, if you don't mind.

G

 

[Aaron Dazer]

it was a dimmond in the ruff
I throw out about 100 a day and once a month wisdom comes out.

 

[zephrbabe]

Eesh . Everyone was being so nasty, and now we've moved into the cordial-to-the-point-of-stildtedness (that's not a word; don't kill me).

Look, it's all well and good that this discussion is going on, but there comes a point when you must admit that each editor has to be able to choose what kind of editing they want to do (that's why there are so many editors on LIT).

Personally, I would love to edit a story that had lots and lots of Orthographical errors, because there's nothing I hate more than seeing an otherwise good story posted on Literotica with basic grammatical errors; it messes up the flow and makes the author look more than a bit stupid.

I've also noticed that the main posters in this thread are men: men who write a lot, and are passionate about writing. Most of the men I know in "real life" are either not good at writing, or dislike doing it, so it's nice to see guys who are concerned about this sort of thing.

Being passionate about something, however, does not mean belittling other people.

Okay... now that everyone hates me (I hope not ), I will end my pedantic diatribe gracefully.

-Kathryn

 

[BlackShanglan]

Eesh . Everyone was being so nasty, and now we've moved into the cordial-to-the-point-of-stildtedness (that's not a word; don't kill me).

Well goodnes, that's quite enough of that Can't have rampant politness and cordiality flinging about the place.

Being passionate about something, however, does not mean belittling other people.

Actually, I think we all agree on this one. As I understood it, the ground of debate was whether it was innately insulting to recommend adult education. I don't think Hawaii Bill intended his advice as belittlement, but Dazer seems to have taken it that way. No?

Shanglan

 

[HawaiiBill]

Education for adults

Strange but I'm of an age that, when the idea of education for adults takes
on some sort of negative connotation, there is little point in continuing the
conversation. Glad you folks did, however, and that you tried to set things
right.

Here's a clear thought, "I live in Southern California where Adult Education
is Typically for Immigrants who don’t know English." Point taken.

Carry on.