He, she, we, you, I, they, Harold.

[Otus de la Nuit]

Actually now that I think about it, it might have been more appropriate to replace "it" with "Pat," rather than poor Harold.

Innn any case...

I'm fairly new to writing any type of fiction and definitely am not yet comfortable with my style (such as it is). In an attempt to take advantage of this and fix my mistakes before I become too set in my ways, I've come to the little matter of pronouns.

pronoun (pro'noun) n.
any of a small class of relationship or signal words that assume the fuctions of nouns within clauses while referring to other locutions within the sentence or in other sentences: I, you, them, it, ours, who, which, myself, anybody, etc. are pronouns.

We're taught in grade school that pronouns take the place of a specific noun you've used earlier in the sentence, or at least the paragraph. To use them in a paragraph that doesn't first name the noun is incorrect.

For me, this is hard enough to do in a scene with five or more characters, and an erotic one with two or maybe three, max? No good. I can't find a balance. My stories seem to me to overuse either the characters' names, or the Hes and Shes, or both in some cases. Now I'm trying to use different devices altogether, but there's only so much you can do when you need to describe THE PERSON or what they're thinking.

"Legs shook. Pulses raced. Brains stopped entirely, except for the female of the two, which was wondering which fake she should use today."

Has its place, preferably in an (intentionally) humorous piece. Back to business

My question is, which side is it better to err on? Is it more distracting to read a lot of paragraphs in which the first sentence restates the character's name for the 17th, 18th, 63rd time, or to see incorrect grammar, even if you know who the pronoun refers to?

 

[openthighs_sarah]

We're taught in grade school that pronouns take the place of a specific noun you've used earlier in the sentence, or at least the paragraph. To use them in a paragraph that doesn't first name the noun is incorrect.

We're taught a lot of crap in grade school, Otus. For instance, we're taught that we shouldn't call complete strangers "assholes" just because it strikes us as funny. I'm not saying that's right and I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's crap.

On to pronouns, though. My rule is that I try to use a pronoun (without repeating the name) for any character of the same sex, across paragraphs, until a new character of that sex takes over the action (so to speak). Sometimes it's just a matter of style -- a name works better in some places than in others.

When you need to switch back and forth quickly, dialogue can help, especially if the characters refer to each other in different ways (nickname, insult, full name, etc.).

If I had to choose, I'd rather see a name get repeated than to have to decipher a bunch of ambiguous pronouns.

It's probably easier to just show someone the story (or an excerpt), if you can, and try to get a reaction to how you handled things.

~sarah

p.s. - I posted on your feedback thread in the other forum, by the way. Very nice story.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Actually now that I think about it, it might have been more appropriate to replace "it" with "Pat," rather than poor Harold.

Innn any case...

I'm fairly new to writing any type of fiction and definitely am not yet comfortable with my style (such as it is). In an attempt to take advantage of this and fix my mistakes before I become too set in my ways, I've come to the little matter of pronouns.

pronoun (pro'noun) n.
any of a small class of relationship or signal words that assume the fuctions of nouns within clauses while referring to other locutions within the sentence or in other sentences: I, you, them, it, ours, who, which, myself, anybody, etc. are pronouns.

We're taught in grade school that pronouns take the place of a specific noun you've used earlier in the sentence, or at least the paragraph. To use them in a paragraph that doesn't first name the noun is incorrect.

For me, this is hard enough to do in a scene with five or more characters, and an erotic one with two or maybe three, max? No good. I can't find a balance. My stories seem to me to overuse either the characters' names, or the Hes and Shes, or both in some cases. Now I'm trying to use different devices altogether, but there's only so much you can do when you need to describe THE PERSON or what they're thinking.

"Legs shook. Pulses raced. Brains stopped entirely, except for the female of the two, which was wondering which fake she should use today."

Has its place, preferably in an (intentionally) humorous piece. Back to business

My question is, which side is it better to err on? Is it more distracting to read a lot of paragraphs in which the first sentence restates the character's name for the 17th, 18th, 63rd time, or to see incorrect grammar, even if you know who the pronoun refers to?

In the case above..."the female" makes it just a little too clinical IMHO. I would use the woman's name in that case. At other times, if there's a straight couple, I use a mix of their names and her and him. In homosexual stories I use a mix of their names and whatever works...My sexy stipper should ahve some good examples of that (see my sig line link)

 

[MathGirl]

Useful advice

One good way to avoid too many pronouns or even proper nouns in dialogue is the following conversation between Jean and Ronald:

Jean said, "How do you think she would do?"

"Well, I dod doe dad mudge, bud we mide gibber a dry."

Since it's obvious that Ronald has a cleft palate or a severe head cold, it isn't necessary to write "Ronald said" or even "he said."

Just one of the tricks of the trade. I ALWAYS have at least one character with a severe speech impediment in any story that has much dialogue.

If three people are speaking, I make sure one of them has a ball gag so all they contribute is, "Mfffffggghhhh."

Helpfully,
MG

 

[Otus de la Nuit]

Dag nammit i wub diss pwace

First and foremost: Mathgirl. What is a person of such wisdom doing here, giving free advice? You could be sharing your expertise in that stunning yet gentle way and bakigg a wod of buddy. And how did you know about my other personality? Ronald is usually kind of shy around new people... Ah well, he has always had astoundingly good taste.

Secondly, thank you all for your helpful notes. Upon further consideration, I don't ever remember reading a story and being horribly upset because a "DEAR Bob! That 'he' really shouldn't be there!" came to mind.

With any luck (and after adopting these thoughts into my Personal Library Of Really Good Thoughts), i will be the only one who is consistently unhappy with character labeling in my stories.

Sarah, THANK YOU for the feedback. That made my day. It's gone in the folder I look at on really upsetting occasions to make them go away. In other words, next time i get a 1.12 on a story..

*pops bubble gum and twirls hair* I'll be like, Well SARAH liked that one story, so like it's TOTALLY ok. That means I'm the awesomest. I am, too, totally. *blink*



muAhahaha. Goodbye.

 

[TheEarl]

It's better to repeat the names constantly than it is to confuse the writer, but there isn't a set rule on where you can and can't use pronouns. Justuse them when you can and then read it over afterwards. If it's confusing, then put in the nameswhere the confusion occurs.

Or use lots of different names for your characters: the blonde, the brunette, her girlfriend, the captive. Gets you out of having to use either.

The Earl

 

[Otus de la Nuit]

I like the lots of names idea and use it when I can. As I said, I'm not comfy with how I write yet, so I worry about things like that being obvious.

"Oh, she's just calling her 'the dumb one' to get around using her name all the time." Crap like that.

An editor *smiles appreciatively* will make all this so much easier. Things that sound repetitive or obvious to me might not to other people. Sadly, you really can't tell unless you have other people reading it.

Well, and they have to be willing to tell you something sucked and not beat around the bush doing it. But that's a topic for another time.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

That's a great question. It really gets down to some hard-core writerly tricks and techniques, because most of us have to deal with that kind of problem at some point. Group sialogue and action are difficult to write for that very reason.

I remember someone writing to the board complaining about the difficulty in writing a 3-person lesbian encounter with all the "she" and "hers" running all together

Here's some things to try.

(A) You don't have to use an attributive every time someone speaks. In other words, you don't have to use "he said", "replied Hermione" etc. Often you can put the quote in the same paragraph with a little description of the sction: ["Screw you!" He slammed the glass down on the bar.] Would work if one of the chars was already drinking. You don't notice thepronoun so much when it isn't attached to a "said".

(B) Be careful with change of speakers. Try and get them each to say as much as possible before changing speakers. This actually just avoids the problem, but that's okay.

(C) Modify the chars' speech to indicate who's going to speak next. Instead of ["What's up?" Mary asked. "Nothing" Harry replied. "Cool." she said.] You can do ["What's up, Harry?" Mary asked. "Nothing." "Cool."]

(D) Set up the speaker with a line of descriptive action. [He pulled his finger from hid nose and looked at it. "Screw you."] would work if we already knew someone was pucking their nose.

(E) Remember that it's often the rhythm of the words that make them stick in your ear after awhile when they're repeated. So avoid strings of "he said/she said/he said/she replied" If you find thathappening, you've got to insert some lines of descriptive action to break it up. But in a two-char MF story, it should be possible to write the whole thing without ever using a proper name.

(F) You can use the character's attributes to desribe the speaker or doer, but use it with care. [the young redhead said] or [the would-be quarterback replied] can get old real quick and is often unintentionally ludicrous.

(G) Be very careful with trying to rely on a character's dialect or speech habits to identify them. Sure, MG can do it, but MG's know for her ability to write fluid speech-impediment porn. See her "And This Little Piggy Had Muff!!!" where Porky Pig had group sex with Daisy Duck, Sylvester the cat, and Barbara Walters for a tour de Force in this kind of thing.

---dr.M.

 

[MathGirl]

Tricks of the dialogue trade

Another method of avoiding the "he/she said" thing is to have a character preface each remark with a distinctive word or phrase. E.g.

"Sheeeeeit, I like that just fine."

"Awwww fuck, it's about time for bed."

"Sweet Jesus H. Christ on a crutch, will you please take out the trash."

Simple, but very effective.

MG

Ps. Sheeeeeit, Dr. M. You're too kind

 

[Otus de la Nuit]

The Epistle Of Otus To the Church In Dialogia

Greetings, and peace be unto you.

All right, dialogue takes some time for me to polish after the initial 'getting what needs to be said, said' thing. I don't, however, have as much trouble with getting around using names/PNs all the time in the dialogue as I do in amongst actions.

For example, here's a chunk of my Spring's Eve that bugs me.

1st person, from Eve's perspective
"I heard an exclamation as I slid my jacket off, hanging it over the chair that sat at the computer desk. I set my keys down, now grinning myself. You had to love Jess. She was in her mid-thirties, and raising Brandon alone, but she somehow managed to be the most cheerful and vibrant person I knew. When she walked into a room she possessed it, but managed to do so without seeming pushy. Sales was definitely her field. I was only 18 and already I wished I had her energy."

More than one person has pointed out that all the 'I's are annoying and don't sound right. I agree, but I don't know how to go about rewording things like this. Is seperation the best way to handle it? There are a bunch of descriptive sentences in the middle there which don't mention Eve at all. So in other words, should I spread out Eve's comments about herself? Other ideas?

This tends to be a problem in everything I write, so although it would be nice to see that particular paragraph read well...i'd rather you teach this chick to fish.

 

[TheEarl]

I remember someone writing to the board complaining about the difficulty in writing a 3-person lesbian encounter with all the "she" and "hers" running all together.

Sheeeit, that was me. Nice to know that people actually listen to me. Occasionally. I actually got around that one by chaining one of the participants to the bed and referring to her as 'the captive.'

First person is sometimes evil because of all the I's. I decided that I was going to change my handwritten I's from a straight line to a line with two crossbars. I wrote a 1st person story in my notebook and the number of I's gave me enough practise to change.

Your paragraph is definitely too 'I' overloaded. You have seven 'I's and they're all clustering together. I can't really describe how to remove them (words fail me atm), but I can show. Just try and think how else you can say things without linking them to the narrator.

"I slid my jacket off and smiled at the exclamation echoing from the hall. You had to love Jess. She was in her mid-thirties, and raising Brandon alone, but she somehow managed to be the most cheerful and vibrant person I knew. When she walked into a room she possessed it, but managed to do so without seeming pushy. Sales was definitely her field. Even at the tender age of 18, I envied her level of energy."

It's just a case of preventing yourself from linking things to the narrator. 'I thought', 'I felt', etc are going to introduce more unnecessary 'I's.

Try writing a small first person piece, just a vignette of about 600 words and then go through it, trying to remove as many I's as possible. Practise will make perfect and you'll discover where an I is and isn't necessary.

Where's Weird Harold? I need him to explain exactly what I meant.

The Earl

 

[pop_54]

Hmmm

Depends on the story and how it all has to fit together, sometimes names are used constantly to avoid confusion when there are several prople in a room or conversation.

If you have five women and four men in a room or where ever the use of he & she could prove very confusing.

If you have just two people of course the names only need noting once in the whole para, or even story for that matter.

Chuck a name in occasionally for effect mixed in the dialogue, but other than that with just a couple of people why keep flogging the names to death as long as you're narrating it as well.

The only time I use nouns as a matter of course is when writing a story heavy on the dialogue, with little narrative, you have to speak the names quite often. As in:

"Hey Joe"

"Yes Trish"

"Seen your sister lately"

"No love, not lately"

"Why do you ask Trish"

"Oh just curious"

"I think it must be about 3 months"

"Hmm, do what Joe"

"My sis, about 3 months since I saw her"

"Ah"

"Come on Trish, out with it, what do you want to say about Mary"

"Oh just wondered if you still sort of want to, you know"

"No Trish I don't know"

"Come on Joe, you know what I mean, you know the sex thing like, the incest, you know"

"Hey Trish honey I told you that's over with"

On and on it goes with names in constant use, but of course if there were narrative in there, the occasional he and she might be better.

What ever way you go you won't please everyone, some purists will jump on you, but rest assured the majority of the readers won't notice the difference as long as enough cock is being poked about.

pops.........

 

[MathGirl]

Suggestion for Pop

Dear Pop,
Why not give Joe a Porto Rican accent and Trish a stutter?
MG

 

[pop_54]

Re: Suggestion for Pop

Dear Pop,
Why not give Joe a Porto Rican accent and Trish a stutter?
MG

Yea I thought of that honey, but I aint good at foreign languages, I'm a multi-lingual illiterate, I can't speak several different languages.

We have laws against mocking the afflicted over here as well, so the stutter is out.

 

[Otus de la Nuit]

Where's Weird Harold? I need him to explain exactly what I meant.

The Earl

*laughs*

I got the gist. Thank you for the explanations, especially with regard to not linking the thoughts directly to the narrator. I'm beginning to believe it's NOT beyond people to be helpful, and all thanks to you guys.

*makes a note to poke more cock about, grinning*

Laughing my ass off in MG's direction, as usual,
Otus

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: Suggestion for Pop

We have laws against mocking the afflicted over here as well, so the stutter is out.

Over here, most people would rather have a stutter than be Porto Rican.
Politically Incorrectly,
MG

 

[TheEarl]

I was helpful? I think I need to increase the medication.

The Earl

 

[Otus de la Nuit]

Originally posted by TheEarl
I was helpful? I think I need to increase the medication.

Love you too

 

[Pure]

Two examples. regarding use of pronouns.

"When I let him go, he falls back to the floor, his arms wrapped around his head and neck. I loosen my belt and fold the soft leather around my fist three times. The first blow is soft, hardly making a noise against his shoulder blades. I am careful to build the intensity of how hit him, layering the blows to cover every inch of his wide shoulders. He is whining softly now, begging me to hit him harder. I want to hit him until I am hoarse, until my voice disappears, until there is nothing but sensation between us. I raise the belt high above my head and bring it whistling down. He screams and I hit him again and again.

Tennessee Jones, "The Word Nebraska"

She is a well published and skilled writer.

======
[first experience fisting]


"'Goddam!' I had never felt anything so extraordinary in my life. I tried to remember everything that anyone had ever done to me that I liked. All right I told myself, and I started to move my hand, the motion flowing from my elbow while I watched her face. When she started moaning and rocking with excitement, I let the muscles on my upper arm go to work. I felt my whole arm working. I wanted to do it right."

Dorothy Allison "What she did with her hands." Widely recognized erotic author.

=====

Both stories in "Best American Erotica, 2003" ed. S. Bright.

Otus, I think some of the rules (about pronouns) you are being told are not valid, and the frequency of "I" in your example para is not really the problem.

J.

 

[Otus de la Nuit]

Otus, I think some of the rules (about pronouns) you are being told are not valid, and the frequency of "I" in your example para is not really the problem.

J. [/B]

Yet another instance of "unnoticeable, if the whole is written well?"

And if so, yes, i see the implications

 

[Pure]

[Originally posted by Pure ]
Otus, I think some of the rules (about pronouns) you are being told are not valid, and the frequency of "I" in your example para is not really the problem.

J.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Otus:
Yet another instance of "unnoticeable, if the whole is written well?"

And if so, yes, i see the implications


No, I wouldn't say 'unnoticeable. etc.' It's quite noticeable in the passages I mentioned and one assumes these authors know what they are doing. The second narrator is telling what it's like to shove your whole hand into a pussy. Her experience is reflected in the "I's".

While I don't say there isn't over use of pronouns in some amateur writing, the problem, in my opinion is general lack of skill, esp. regarding *variety* of sentences and style thereof. It is a skill to know when a higher proportion of 'I's' --or pronouns [see my first example]--would be appropriate.

best,

J.

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

Okay. Tough one. The rule for fiction is easy to *state.*
It's merely hard to judge.
Use the pronoun when the actor (or speaker) is obvious.
Otherwise use the name.
Obvious to whom? Obvious to the reader, but....
You are not the reader; you know who is doing -- saying
in the situations that I worry about -- things.
I tend to have only two people of opposite sex in my
importatnt scenes. That makes it little easier. Then,
"he said" is almost as clear as "George said." But that
isn't always possible. And other people write MM or FF
or group sex scenes. And, of course, you write dialogue
for group conversations unless your story takes place on
a desert island occupied by two people.
And "The reader" is a nice generality, but what is clear to
Fred when he reads your story is not clear to Mary when
she reads it. I would suggest straying onthe side of
nouns, but not too far.

 

[Pure]

The use of excessive 'he saids' and the issue of when to say 'he said' or 'George said' is a separate one, somewhat related to the issue that started the thread.

I agree with Uther and several others that 'tags' can and should be reduced in most amateur writing. Clues within the statements do the trick: I.e., "Mary, you're in for a good fucking"
or "I love that pussy of yours" are obviously said by John to Mary, not vice versa.

Agreed, too, that three women fucking is going to be a challenge to write so there won't be too much of "Mary helped Susan shove Josie's hand into [her] Susan. Susan felt herself stretched because [she] Josie was so large, and [she] Mary saw the pain in [her] Susan's face."


J.

 

[MathGirl]

Doing it the easy way

Everyone makes it so difficult. So much can be accomplished by simply giving characters speech impediments, Mexican accents, bizarre clothing, etc.

E.g. "Take a mouf fulla dis tree inch tulunga, Chicquita." See? It isn't necessary to add, "said the sombrero clad midget."

Helpfully,
MG

 

[Pure]

MG's solution to the 'tag' and pronoun problem:

//bizarre clothing, etc. //

I guess that works something like this, we know he's dressed as a pirate and she as a nun (from the story title).

Hence

"I'll just pull off my shirt with the billowy sleeves and fuck you"

"I'm hoping you'll rip this 'habit' right offa me"

"Gotta take off these captured rings before I finger ya."

"Damn this wimple is a pain, go ahead."

=====
Kudos.

That certainly takes care of the 'he saids' and 'she saids'.