Gun freedom and Amir Locke.....is this the cost of Liberty?

[WillJ8787]

Source:
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2022-02-16/amir-locke-to-be-eulogized-at-minneapolis-service

I can imagine guns rights advocates coming to Amir Locke's defense, saying something like...'he had every right to defend himself from an unknown threat that entered the place he was sleeping in, where had committed no crime, had no reasonable reason to think his attackers were cops, had the right to defend himself and his life".

Are gun rights advocates saying this in this case or coming to his defence?

Complicating this argument I imagine....is the fact that these were cops serving a "no knock" warrant. The police made a grave error in this case, and despite this mistake, have legal grounds to shoot to kill, even in this case where a error was made.

Is this a case against absolute gun freedom based in an argument of self defense. Clearly, Locke lost his life....his rights didn't save him, owning a gun didn't save him and the police will walk away from this without any charges sticking to them...they were carrying out their jobs to the letter of the existing law.

Or, is better laws, better govt the key to saving lives like Locke's....not his gun or his gun rights...his other rights?

 

[Champakian]

Will, the exception never proves the rule.

Guns Prevent Thousands of Crimes Every Day, Research Shows ...
Search domain fee.orghttps://fee.org › articles › guns-prevent-thousands-of-crimes-every-day-research-show
Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day. Most often, the gun is never fired, and no blood (including the criminal's) is shed. Every year, 400,000 life-threatening violent crimes are prevented using firearms.
8 Horrible Crimes Stopped by Legal Gun Owners - AvvoStories
Search domain stories.avvo.comhttps://stories.avvo.com › crime › 8-horrible-crimes-stopped-by-legal-gun-owners.html
Guns are always a divisive topic. Some stand by their rights to bear arms, and they say that private firearms stop millions of crimes each year. Those opposed to gun ownership believe that the more guns that are out in the public, the more shootings and deaths will take place.
Study : Guns Stop Crime 2.5 Million Times Each Year ...
Search domain thinkaboutnow.comthinkaboutnow.com › 2016 › 06 › study-guns-stop-crime-2-5-million-times-each-year
* states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; [10] and * if those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been …

Search == crimes stopped by guns (DuckDuckGo)

 

[Champakian]

No government will ever be "good" enough, that is a subjective metric.

The only crime here is the no-knock warrant.

There is no reason for it what-so-ever.

Like the Branch Dividians all they had to do was wait for him to go out into public.

 

[bellisarius]

Will, the exception never proves the rule.

Guns Prevent Thousands of Crimes Every Day, Research Shows ...
Search domain fee.orghttps://fee.org › articles › guns-prevent-thousands-of-crimes-every-day-research-show
Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day. Most often, the gun is never fired, and no blood (including the criminal's) is shed. Every year, 400,000 life-threatening violent crimes are prevented using firearms.
8 Horrible Crimes Stopped by Legal Gun Owners - AvvoStories
Search domain stories.avvo.comhttps://stories.avvo.com › crime › 8-horrible-crimes-stopped-by-legal-gun-owners.html
Guns are always a divisive topic. Some stand by their rights to bear arms, and they say that private firearms stop millions of crimes each year. Those opposed to gun ownership believe that the more guns that are out in the public, the more shootings and deaths will take place.
Study : Guns Stop Crime 2.5 Million Times Each Year ...
Search domain thinkaboutnow.comthinkaboutnow.com › 2016 › 06 › study-guns-stop-crime-2-5-million-times-each-year
* states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; [10] and * if those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been …

Search == crimes stopped by guns (DuckDuckGo)

He's a bed wetting Canadian that lives in his basement. The big bad world terrifies him.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

What do you mean by “coming to his (the victim) defense?” An apparently innocent man was shot by police.

 

[freakyguy41]

Will, the exception never proves the rule.

Guns Prevent Thousands of Crimes Every Day, Research Shows ...
Search domain fee.orghttps://fee.org › articles › guns-prevent-thousands-of-crimes-every-day-research-show
Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day. Most often, the gun is never fired, and no blood (including the criminal's) is shed. Every year, 400,000 life-threatening violent crimes are prevented using firearms.
8 Horrible Crimes Stopped by Legal Gun Owners - AvvoStories
Search domain stories.avvo.comhttps://stories.avvo.com › crime › 8-horrible-crimes-stopped-by-legal-gun-owners.html
Guns are always a divisive topic. Some stand by their rights to bear arms, and they say that private firearms stop millions of crimes each year. Those opposed to gun ownership believe that the more guns that are out in the public, the more shootings and deaths will take place.
Study : Guns Stop Crime 2.5 Million Times Each Year ...
Search domain thinkaboutnow.comthinkaboutnow.com › 2016 › 06 › study-guns-stop-crime-2-5-million-times-each-year
* states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; [10] and * if those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been …

Search == crimes stopped by guns (DuckDuckGo)

What a bunch of complete and total bullshit.

Every first world country on the planet has FAR fewer guns and FAR less intentional homicides and FAR less violent crime than the United States. That simple FACT reduces your supposed research to fascist nonsense. That simple FACT is not a belief... it is not an opinion... it is a FACT in every other civilized country on the planet.

Second... all of the data you quote was developed by gun promoting organizations... the article even identifies the incident in El Paso TX as an example but it doesn't tell you how or why and the it was completely the opposite... the El Paso TX Walmart is an absolute example of gun ownership completely failing to protect anyone. The perpetrator went into a Walmart and walked all around the store for 25 minutes while killing 23 and wounding 23 more. Of the 500 customers in the store, 55 customers inside the Walmart had their concealed carry weapon on their person yet not one single round was ever fired at the perpetrator. Of the last 17 mass murders committed in TX in which others had a firearm on their person, in only ONE instance was a shot take at the perpetrator. Last on the bullshit of your article... it quotes the CDC as the data source for guns preventing crime... lol... the CDC is all about disease... the ATF and the FBI collect all data on guns and crime. Do yourself a favor and only consider data from organizations paid to objectively collect and report data on the subject... any subject... and then you can also consider data from wholly unbiased sources just looking to know and understand the truth.

Here's an article on research conducted by Scientific American... completely unbiased, just bean counting and reporting. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/

Actual statistics... there are about 330 million Americans... 32% of them own at least one gun so about 100 million Americans own at least one gun. Last year 1.3 million violent crimes were perpetrated on Americans. Research performed by Harvard University reveals gun carriers stopped no more than 68,000 total crimes... not just violent crimes.

 

[jaF0]

The better case is this one:

Texas girl, 9, dies after being accidentally shot by ATM robbery victim; man charged
KSAT|21 hours ago
Houston police say Earls, who had been robbed at an ATM on Monday evening, Feb. 14, opened fire in an attempt to stop his attacker but instead shot a 9-year-old girl in a truck driving nearby. The girl later died at a hospital.

https://www.ksat.com/news/2022/02/15/girl-9-dies-after-mistakenly-shot-by-robbery-victim/


If only the little girl had had a gun, she wouldn't have been shot, right Greg Yabutthead?

Right Greg? Everybody needs guns right Greg?

Isn't that what you want Greg? MOAR GUNS, right Gregg? Yabbutthead.

Fuck guns.

 

[GothTalk]

Source:
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2022-02-16/amir-locke-to-be-eulogized-at-minneapolis-service

I can imagine guns rights advocates coming to Amir Locke's defense, saying something like...'he had every right to defend himself from an unknown threat that entered the place he was sleeping in, where had committed no crime, had no reasonable reason to think his attackers were cops, had the right to defend himself and his life".

Are gun rights advocates saying this in this case or coming to his defence?

Yes.

Or, is better laws, better govt the key to saving lives like Locke's....not his gun or his gun rights...his other rights?

It's true, Democrat run Minneapolis is a corrupt shit hole with thug cops.

They will continue to abuse and murder innocent civilians in their city, it's just what you and your tribe do WillJ.

 

[WillJ8787]

Yes.



It's true, Democrat run Minneapolis is a corrupt shit hole with thug cops.

They will continue to abuse and murder innocent civilians in their city, it's just what you and your tribe do WillJ.

We had some very reasonable and interesting points of view presented from both sides of the issues until this one....which clearly shows a maniac who has lost his marbles somewhere. Call 1-800 -get- help dude and get some

 

[Sean Renaud]

Yes.



It's true, Democrat run Minneapolis is a corrupt shit hole with thug cops.

They will continue to abuse and murder innocent civilians in their city, it's just what you and your tribe do WillJ.

Happens far more often in the south. Can you define Democrat run just so you don't play your "words mean things" bullshit.

 

[GothTalk]

Happens far more often in the south.

What exactly does? Police corruption or abuse?

OH wait, neither. All the worst most corrupt and abusive PD's are all major blue metro areas, Baltimore, Detroit, Washington DC, NYPD and LAPD regularly making up the top 5.

And if you go by state California is by far the most abusive state in the union.

The only way this looks bad for anyone else is if you do per-capita which just makes a list of most populated (least per/capita) to the least populated.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

Can you define Democrat run just so you don't play your "words mean things" bullshit.

The city council and mayor, the people with the power, are super majority if not all Democrats. Meaning Democrats have total power.

Have been for quite a while now.... same with nearly all of the worst PD's. Detroit, Baltimore, NY, LA, etc. all solid (D) run metro shit holes with a stark hatred of anything to the right of Mao.

 

[Sean Renaud]

What exactly does? Police corruption or abuse?

OH wait, neither. All the worst most corrupt and abusive PD's are all major blue metro areas, Baltimore, Detroit, Washington DC, NYPD and LAPD regularly making up the top 5.

And if you go by state California is by far the most abusive state in the union.

The only way this looks bad for anyone else is if you do per-capita which just makes a list of most populated (least per/capita) to the least populated.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

Violent crime as a whole, and you should generally be going with per-capita.

The city council and mayor, the people with the power, are all Democrats.

Have been for quite a while now.... same with nearly all of the worst PD's. Detroit, Baltimore, NY, LA, etc. all solid (D) run metro shit holes.

I don't think there are lot of cities that would fit that definition atall. LA is not a shit hole, its not even in the top worst cities in the nation. Holy fuck

 

[GothTalk]

Violent crime as a whole,

Still almost entirely a blue metro shit hole issue.

and you should generally be going with per-capita.

Why because it helps disguise the fact that California actually has way more police brutality every year than Montana has in 30 years??

I don't think there are lot of cities that would fit that definition atall. LA is not a shit hole, its not even in the top worst cities in the nation. Holy fuck

LMFAO!!!!

Of course you wouldn't.... all that homelessness and filth is GOOD!!!

No it's not the worst, it's still a filthy trash pit though. Boggles the fuckin' mind people pay that absurd prices they do to live in that dumpster. Coming down 5 from up north you can literally smell the smog/trash when you drop into the valley from pyramid lake area.

 

[CuttingEdge]

Kind of a tough call...

I sleep with a loaded pistol next to me as well, so if someone was to startle me in the middle of the night, it would be the first thing I would grab. That does not mean I would pull the trigger, "know your target right", but I would go for my gun.

In this case though, the police officer thought he was going for his gun and felt threatened.

To me the police are in error, because the gun was in his hands, but that does not mean he was going to use it against the police officer. He could have been talked down perhaps.

And the police officer had body armor on against a pistol shot. Its very unlikely it would penetrate body armor. A high powered rifle; that is a different story.

I have had some experience with this with our local SWAT team and I was not impressed. They were the best of the best and yet shaking as they went down to arrest some hunters who had "high powered rifles". Really people, just go down and serve your warrant; not everyone is out to kill you.

 

[butters]

Kind of a tough call...

I sleep with a loaded pistol next to me as well, so if someone was to startle me in the middle of the night, it would be the first thing I would grab. That does not mean I would pull the trigger, "know your target right", but I would go for my gun.

In this case though, the police officer thought he was going for his gun and felt threatened.

reach for your gun, you are perceived as a threat.

that's why so many cops shoot so many civilians in cars who they BELIEVE are 'reaching for their gun' even if no gun actually exists.

 

[phrodeau]

Officer Hanneman should not have had a gun. He was probably high as fuck.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.n...al_2012_Occupy_MN_DRE_training.pdf?1644080386

 

[Sean Renaud]

Actually no, not every blue place is a shit hole. That's a lie you tell all the time. Its a popular one on the right when they want to keep your head spinning. And Police brutality is only half the equation, much of it caused by our lax gun laws.

Yeah, you can smell the smog of a place where people live and work but are held back by people like you who hate the Green Agenda. These things are all part of a whole.

 

[GothTalk]

Actually no, not every blue place is a shit hole.

I didn't say they were.

Plenty of rich/elite blue spots. Usually behind walls and paid security to keep the riff-raff out.

But all the most violent shit holes in the USA, are blue and all highly permissive of crime.

That's a lie you tell all the time.

No that's a dishonest ascription you came up with.

I've NEVER said every blue place is a shit hole.

Yeah, you can smell the smog of a place where people live and work but are held back by people like you who hate the Green Agenda. These things are all part of a whole.

Nothing stopping you guys from going green.

Just like nothing has stopped you guys from doing UHC.

Ban petroleum, go back to pre-industrialized life, and raise taxes to pay for that no-ID needed "FREE" HC for any and all with their hands out HC system.

Democrats have FULL control in California. My Montanian/Minnesotan ass got nothing to do with it.

Ya'll just to chicken shit to walk all that good talk.

 

[bellisarius]

Let's see here. "Serving a warrant related to a St. Paul homicide case." Seems that Locke had some dodgy friends.

There's more to this story.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Bullshit you didn't, stop with the lying. You said blue places are shit holes and now you're trying to walk it back to "well some gated communities aren't" see words meant things!

If all the violent shit holes are blue, you've got to explain why the South is so dangerous. Cus you can't just boil this down to city by city. I don't think I've EVER worked in the city I live in except in the military. My school wasn't even in my city.

We've done this dance before, its how I know that you are terminally dishonest about these things and word your posts very precisely so any reasonable person would come to a singular conclusion.

The thing stopping us from going green is it means nothing if we can't force you to go green. And since you don't even believe capitalism like most conservatives you effectively get to hold me hostage.

Yes it has. You not going UHC prevents me from going UHC. There is absolutely nothing that would stop you from renting an apartment here for a year when ill. This is one more reason why states rights are not only antiquated they are dangerous.

Banning petroleum which binary thinking only people like you can imagine would not send us back to pre-industrial life. Again our taxes would end up paying for you once again.

Yes you nobody wants to live here because we can't provide jobs for our people states do have ass to do with it. Just like you have undo (even by the FF's standards) way too much say in the country. If they'd had their way CA, NY and TX would pretty much run things at least as far as the House and President went. The Senate would still be an unbalanced shit show but that's pretending the states we have even make sense. News flash. They do not.

 

[WillJ8787]

Kind of a tough call...

I sleep with a loaded pistol next to me as well, so if someone was to startle me in the middle of the night, it would be the first thing I would grab. That does not mean I would pull the trigger, "know your target right", but I would go for my gun.

In this case though, the police officer thought he was going for his gun and felt threatened.

To me the police are in error, because the gun was in his hands, but that does not mean he was going to use it against the police officer. He could have been talked down perhaps.

And the police officer had body armor on against a pistol shot. Its very unlikely it would penetrate body armor. A high powered rifle; that is a different story.

I have had some experience with this with our local SWAT team and I was not impressed. They were the best of the best and yet shaking as they went down to arrest some hunters who had "high powered rifles". Really people, just go down and serve your warrant; not everyone is out to kill you.

I think you hit the nail on this one...how does one figure this out?

 

[phrodeau]

Let's see here. "Serving a warrant related to a St. Paul homicide case." Seems that Locke had some dodgy friends.

There's more to this story.

Jesus Christ had some dodgy friends, too. The First Amendment protects the right of association.

 

[GothTalk]

Bullshit you didn't, stop with the lying. You said blue places are shit holes and now you're trying to walk it back to "well some gated communities aren't" see words meant things!

No, I didn't.... not anywhere.

What I actually said was.

"All the worst most corrupt and abusive PD's are all major blue metro areas"

Which is not even remotely close to "Blue places are shit holes".

You're the only liar here, I stated a fact, stay triggered over it.

Cus you can't just boil this down to city by city.

Why not?? Because that would make your PRESCIOUS Democrats who run those shit holes look bad, because they are bad???

Yea, I can, and I do, I hold city councils and mayors RESPONSIBLE for how those cities are run. 100%.

The thing stopping us from going green is it means nothing if we can't force you to go green.

California failing to lead by example and walk any of it's talk has nothing to do with me or any other folks in any of the other 49 stats.

Your psychotic totalitarianism notwithstanding.... ya'll are just full of shit unwilling to do the things you say others must do. And you hypocrites can take your "Do as I say not as I do." and go fuck yerself with it.

Yes it has. You not going UHC prevents me from going UHC.

Again, California and progressive Democrat cowardice has nothing to do with me.

There is absolutely nothing that would stop you from renting an apartment here for a year when ill.

So?? That's not a problem nationally, should be just as wonderful and progressive policy for California no???

Oh wait, no, it's fucking stupid you guys won't actually do it.

This is one more reason why states rights are not only antiquated they are dangerous.

They are dangerous to psychotic control freaks who won't even put their money where their mouth is like you. YES. That's the fuckin' point.

 

[WillJ8787]

Someone is having a bad day....poor Mrs. Botato Boi.

 

[GothTalk]

Someone is having a bad day....poor Mrs. Botato Boi.

You're delusional again WillJ.