Great Feedback on Lousy Stories

[Ray Dario]

Hey guys, don't you just love it when you get great feedback on your worst stories? In the last several weeks, I read them all together cause I'd been gone, I got no less than eleven feedbacks on stories like "Caught", "Kelly's Date", "Choices" and even one feedback that raved about "One Night".

This is a pretty good list of my worst stories. They all SUCK bigtime, IMHO, and yet apparently there are people who enjoyed them. Each of these stories suffers from grammar that would make a second grader blush, poor plot, terrible character building, and a general lack of wit, so much so that I have at times considered pulling them from Lit.

Now ...

Kinda makes me wonder if I know what is good writing or not! Maybe all this astute advice I doll out in heaps on this board is just bunk!

So tell me: How does positive feedback on your worst stories, assuming you have bad stories like I do, make you feel?

Ray

 

[Idle_Hands]

Ray,

First off, I haven't read those stories, and your lack of endorsement isn't going to send me off to pick them first when I choose to read your work.

I can still comment on the subject though...

I think you're qualified to tell when a story technically sucks, even your own. It's all relative, though, right? Did you feel that those stories sucked when you posted them? Perhaps in relation to your current work and your knowledge of what makes a good story they seem bad, but others might not be so critical.

More importantly, though, writing is communication, however, and even lousy stories can strike a chord with a reader, no matter what the technique. This is true in many mediums - good film does not require big budgets, and inexperienced painters can create works which move some viewers.

Course, it could just be that you got their rocks off. Feedback written in the post-climactic glow...

-ih

 

[Ray Dario]

Ray,

Did you feel that those stories sucked when you posted them?

No, when I wrote them and even when I posted them I was a new writer and didn't know shit from shineola about what made a story good or bad. If I wrote one of those stories today I would simply grin to myself as I clicked the delete button and watched it evaporate into the meaningless bit bucket it deserves.

Course, it could just be that you got their rocks off. Feedback written in the post-climactic glow...
-ih

Perhaps and maybe I have grown too critical. When I first came to Lit, oh so many years ago, I read nearly every story that showed up on the new stories list and really enjoyed them. Now I click out of 99% of the stories I start to read and I'm much more selective of the stories I start to read.

My pet peeves and the reasons I back click?

1) Second Person Perspective

2) First Person Perspective unless the first paragraph is REALLY interesting.

3) Number type description in the first paragraph.

4) The phrase "My wife was the hottest woman in the world." or something similar.

5) Obvious Typos or Misspelled words in the first paragraph.

6) The word Tapioca

Okay, okay, I was just joking about the last one but the others I mean.

Worst part is my earliest stories have most of these problems. Well except for number 1. I've never submitted a story I wrote in second person.

So what do ya'll think makes a story "bad"?

Ray

 

[Idle_Hands]

I'm just wondering how much it matters. I started posting because I was having fun writing up my fantasies, but now I find that I care about how they're written. I think there's a sub-set of the authors on here who care about their writing, and we feed off each other in worrying about it all (ok, we improve as well), but that's not why most people come to Lit.

-ih

 

[TheEarl]

I sympathise, I could only get feedback on "One Cup of Coffee", which was abysmal. Try the Story Discussion Circle if you want something meaningful.

There are some stories which aren't that well written, but which I always turn to for arousal. Maybe I like the concept or the general theory. An example of this is Nymphomania (ICBB to find a link, it's in fetish): Not that well written, no real character development, unbelievable, cheesy and tacky with a plot straight out of a Swedish porn film. However it does the job for me, as I like the concept and the sex is written very well. Sometimes I don't care about story or character development. To his credit the author admits in the headnotes that this is "...a fuckfest. Literary worth belongs in literature." Your stories, which may be bad in your eyes may fill a niche market.

What's wrong with 1st person? I can understand hating 2nd, but I think 1st can be done really well. I'm not holding my stories up as paradigms, but "Seducing Dawn" is quite well done and that's 1st person.

The Earl

 

[Omni]

I was posting my reply on a thread here from Mickey titled "The Stories The Thing" within the last couple weeks, and as I was forming my reply I realized something. That I as a writer no longer look at stories to read in the same way I use to when I was just a simple reader. It should have been completely obvious, yet it escaped me.
I have been contemplating it since, and someways I feel sort of sad about it. Now, I wonder if this is part of the price a writer pays for their craft?
And to the reasons I back click certain stories, my number one pet peeve is stories written in any type of first person. I know I am prejudice, however when I first started writing, every how to writing book I read said that first person was not the way to go, and that even the best seasoned writers seldom wrote first person.
Writers could argue POV and tense endlessly and do. Yet when I read a first person story, I always feel as though they are one dimensional, and lacking in a wealth of depth that could have been obtained. Perhaps my views come from the point of view that I started out writing other genre than erotica, and in them, third person was the normal. Now, I am writing erotica where it appears first person is the normal, but I think erotica today is losing out, if it sticks to this form. I personally write all mine in third person. But, I will admit that I am targeting a certain reader.
Other reasons that I find myself not reading a story are.

1. The first sentence or paragraph does not catch my attention.

2. Little or no dialogue.

3. Large blocks of description.

4. Not naming the characters. (ugh, just calling them he or she.)

5. Anything in the title or begining that says the
word "cyber."

Well there are a few.............


Omni

 

[KillerMuffin]

Personally, I think we've lost touch with the audience a little sometimes. We're here, or so it seems, to learn to write award winning erotica.

What does the average Lit reader want?

To get off. That's it. They don't care if it's Pulitzer Prize winning or something a five year old could do better at. If it gets the job done then they love it.

My "best" stories are some of my worst rated. I personally love my Memoirs of a Lady chapter. I think it's some of my best writing, but the audience is pretty unimpressed with it, comparatively.

My "worst" stories, the ones that make me cringe, are better rated. I'm thinking of removing them altogether, but I haven't decided yet.

There really is no accounting for the readers' tastes. Simply because everyone is sexually aroused by different things. Penthouse Letters, which is my estimation the lowest of the low in erotic writing, is wildly successful. Why is it? Because it's what gets readers off. They like it. They enjoy it. They could care less about literary quality if they like or enjoy a story.

In the end, I try to satisfy both myself and the reader. Not necessarily with the same story, but with a variety that they might enjoy. And I never look at my nicely rated icky stories. I just thank them profusely when someone writes about them.

 

[christo]

One of the first stories I wrote is called "A Close Shave". Not one of my best, and it's one of my worst rated stories. I didn't get much feedback on it. Yet for some reason people vote on it like crazy. I posted it over a year ago, and every time I check my stats I've had two or three votes.

I think the biggest reason is that it's a pretty short story, and it gets to the sex right away. It's probably just long enough to get your interest, hold your interest, and, uh, end your interest.

I keep trying to write short, sex-only stories, but I can't pull it off (no pun intended). Everything ends up around 10000 words, except for the story I'm doing now that's gonna be like 35000 words. And for the casual reader just looking for some titilation, spending 7 hours in front of the screen is going to leave you sore in some sensitive places.

 

[Ray Dario]

What's wrong with 1st person? I can understand hating 2nd, but I think 1st can be done really well. I'm not holding my stories up as paradigms, but "Seducing Dawn" is quite well done and that's 1st person.

1st person can be done really well. Usually it's ... not.

(oh hell here he goes again!)

In my opinion ... Writers should have a REASON for the POV they use when writing a story.

3rd person allows the writer to explore more than a single person's point of view. This usually gives the story more depth. Inside 3rd person there are actually two different POVs

3rd person Omniscient - Where the narrator knows everything and can leap into any character's thoughts. This is a powerful POV and can be used in most stories. It gives the writer the most flexibility but can be confusing to readers if the POV shifts aren't handled carefully.

3rd person semi-omniscient - Where the narrator generally only leaps into a single character's thoughts and while he knows more than the main character he tends to stay focused on one or a few characters and doesn't reveal the inner most thoughts of all the characters. This is my favorite POV to read and to write. It is what most SF/F is written in. I would say that if you don't have a reason to write in some other POV you should use this one.

1st person should be used when the writer really wants to explore the main character in depth. When he wants the reader to get inside the main character's head and live there for the whole story. AND when he doesn't care about making the other characters lose out for that to happen.

2nd person should be used when the writer wants show off his/her own ignorance. ( )

I've written 1st person stories. Even posted a few on Lit. Each one had a reason for being in first person. Perhaps it is a little arrogant of me to back click stories written in first person just because they are, but 99 times out of 100 they turn out poorly ... unless the first couple of paragraphs are well written, then I'll stay and read.

As to KM's comment. Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe we shouldn't be trying to learn to write award winning erotica. Maybe we should just concentrate on getting our readers off.

Actually I do that sometimes, and I'm usually ashamed of myself afterward. It feels scummy, like going to a dive and picking up a woman with that little pale band of skin on her finger. You know she's married and you ain't helpin' her marriage out any but DAMN! the sex is good so you do it anyway. Then you hate yourself and her in the morning. But two weeks later your back at the dive buying another married woman a drink.

So I write the best I can, and try to forget the times I've written cheap sex stories just to get that little feedback email that strokes my ego and tells me I'm great. Maybe, someday, I'll write a SF/F novel that will be published and the fan mail will flow in like a river of honey and I won't need to write cheap sex stories to over inflate my ego anymore. Then I'll leave Lit and strut around like a peacock proclaiming to the world that I am an author. But deep inside I'll still know. Know that before I became an author I was a writer. A writer that wrote cheap sex stories.

Damn that is so melodramatic. Maybe I should put that into a story. Hmm ...

Ray

 

[wildsweetone]

In my opinion ... Writers should have a REASON for the POV they use when writing a story.

Ray

why should we have a reason for the POV we use? Can it not simply be that that is the way the story is?

dare i suggest that the 'reason' for which POV we have used is as vast as the reasons we write the type of story we write, and as vast as the reasons the readers choose which story to read?

sometimes we can get ourselves bogged down in the whys and wherefors of what we do. generally, we all write. we write because we have to, or because we enjoy it. if we're open minded, we learn as we go along.

as for those first stories which we all have here on lit., i use mine as a measure of how far my own writing has come. i looked back on one story last week and couldn't believe i'd begun the story in such a slack offhand way. i am itching to rewrite several of my stories. i may choose one to rewrite to placate the braincells, but the rest will stay as they are in order for me to measure my progress against.

i can still write a jack-off piece without stress or strain, now i know i can do it with a touch of finesse compared to six months ago.

so Ray, you have become wise enough to realise the difference in your writing. it's time to use that wisdom to take your next step to wherever it may lead you

(i'm sure i should have put IMHO in there somewhere )

 

[Ray Dario]

WildSweetOne,

You know I love you but ...

Writing without reason, without thinking the story through, without considering alternatives and deciding which is best, is, IMHO, cheating the reader.

If a story deserves to be told, then it deserves to be told in the best way it can be told.

POV is a tool that writers use. Just like adjectives and adverbs. Like nouns and pronouns, and verbs and conjunctions. You wouldn't use the word "illuminate" without a reason. Why should you not think about the story and determine which POV the story needs.

And actually "That is the way the story is." is a reason.

Like most decisions made during writing, POV choice is often made without concious thought and that is not necessarily bad. Great writers, I'm sure, can just pick up a pen and begin writing and a great story will fall out onto the paper.

Sadly, there are few great writers.

For the rest of us, most of our stories need all the help they can get to be great. We work hard to use just the right words, not too many adjectives, not too many adverbs. Change that phrase to a single, more powerful word, take that comma out, put that comma in.

If you go to that much trouble shouldn't you at least think about the POV you choose? There are reasons to use first person. It can be very effective. There are reasons to use third person too. I think our stories deserve the work we put into them and I think our readers deserve the work we put into our stories. I think that should include consideration of the POV we use.

Ray

 

[TheEarl]

Two reasons why I use 1st person:

I prefer writing in 1st person. Although that is a little selfish sometimes to the reader, I find the story flows better from there. I'm a completely amateur writer (I have no intention of going professional, this is the highest I aim for), so I write partly to please myself and partly to please other people. I have no motive to write "serious" (and I use that word in the absence of anything better) stories. Anyway, as an amateur writer I stick to what you're comfortable with as I'm not good enough to branch out. Very few of my 3rd persons are any good, which is why none of them are on Lit.

Also I find that 90% of my stories do focus round a central character. I like 1st person because it allows me to get into the head of that person. Everyone else is scenery.

I'm currently writing a story that switches perspectives (although writers block and lack of time have slowed its progress). Interesting to see whether I'm proud of it at the end.

Ray, interesting that you talk about catering to a "cheap" readership. That's how One Cup Of Coffee began (the only story that I'm ashamed of).

The Earl

 

[Omni]

On the question of POV

POV is the first thing that publishers look at in a manuscript, and it is what gets the majority of manuscripts sent back with a no thank you letter to the writer. Mostly due to the fact that the POV of view used is written badly. However, also do to the fact that the POV that is being used is not the one favored by them, and because they are trying to make money at it, the ones they know will sell.
Now the question is, should it matter on a free site for erotic stories? I suppose the answer to that is as individual and as varied as the reasons people post their stories here.
However, if your intentions for writing and then posting here are in anyway motivated in the direction and with the hope of improving your craft, then POV (IMHO) should be the first thing you condsider when writing your story, even for a free site.



Omni

 

[wildsweetone]

it seems

i'm more of an oddball than i originally thought.

when i write, i either pick up a pen or hit the keys on the keyboard. i don't even have time to make a rational thought before the words are out there in front of my eyes. i don't mentally put them there. my brain jumps ahead and tells my fingers what to do.

there is no conscious thought about what i am writing, nor about the POV or tense or any darn thing. the words just happen.

having said that, i admit to being told several times that i should have written in a particular POV - but that is from another persons perspective. generally speaking, i am happy with my own perspective.

for the life of me, i cannot conceive how to manipulate my mind to become tied up in knots with preconceived notions about what style of writing i should use.

i choose the freedom.

i choose to let my mind tell the story as it sees fit.

hmmm perhaps this is just the proof of a child writer. then again, perhaps it's the proof of a writer who has confidence in her own writing.

Ray, it's not cheating the reader. perhaps it's that when one isn't happy with ones own work, one tends to look for reasons. i mean that in a loving way sweetheart.

when a story is finished do you sit back and say 'wow'? or do you sit back and pull it to pieces? if the former then leave it be, it's the best you could do. if the latter, then rewrite the darn thing until you do get that 'wow' feeling. - or scrap it.

often it's the uncertainty within ourselves that causes us to look with such harsh critique at our own work. have a little trust sometimes. it's a refreshing release.

who is to say which point of view is right until after the story is written? why limit yourself to third person POV... unless of course that is the preferred writing style for you. should a good author not be able to write in EVERY POV?

 

[Ray Dario]

WildSweetOne,

I'm afraid I haven't made my point very well. Actually I think that you and I are not as far apart as we may seem. I would not want to limit myself or others to a single POV.

Your style of writing works for you. I've read enough of your stuff to know that it really does. Your style does not work for the average Joe Writer on Lit. Don't believe me? Read a few of the stories on the "New Stories" list.

WSO, you don't write every story from first person. Not every story should be written from first person. But scan down the list and you'll see that almost all the new stories are written in first person and many violate the view point so horribly that it is shameful.

I believe my advice is sound for inexperienced writers who are stuggling. Accomplished writers know enough not to listen to me.

Ray

 

[wildsweetone]

i think i just got spanked! lol

that's it, hit me while i'm down full of flu! okay i'm kidding. i will go take a look at the 'new' list and see what's around.

you've read some of my stuff? omg i never knew that! ohhhh how will i ever stand the light of day again? truely i'm shocked, i never expected to hear you say that. now i'm really worried. god i need to go and do some rewrites badly.

i guess i'm not accomplished either, i didn't know not to listen to you!

(next time put WSO STAY HOME in the title or something )

***
oh gee i've clicked on four of the new stories in the last 10 minutes. i didn't get even halfway down the first webpage on any of them. i see exactly what you are saying Ray.

just a thought, but are they worse than a few months ago?

 

[Ray Dario]

WildSweetOne,

You always make me smile. You are a great writer, even though you don't admit it to yourself.

About the new stories. I don't know if they are worse than a few months ago or just seem that way to me.

I know that my writing seems worse today than it did a few months ago. It is actually better, but when I read what I have just written, it seems worse than when I read what I had just written two months ago.

Hmm, I don't know if that made any sense.

Ray

 

[wildsweetone]

WildSweetOne,

You always make me smile. You are a great writer, even though you don't admit it to yourself.

About the new stories. I don't know if they are worse than a few months ago or just seem that way to me.

I know that my writing seems worse today than it did a few months ago. It is actually better, but when I read what I have just written, it seems worse than when I read what I had just written two months ago.

Hmm, I don't know if that made any sense.

Ray

i have to tell you this in secret and confidence Ray... when someone says to me what you just did about my writing, i'm overwhelmed. it throws me completely off balance. it's so hard for me to believe that another author can think i'm any good. thank you for saying it dear, i appreciate it very much. *hug*

i will have a look at the new stories again at the end of the week. maybe this flu is making me loose my perspective. i was disappointed by what i saw.

what you said made perfect sense to me dear, but then i have the flu rofl

 

[TheEarl]

I have to say being an author (even in the loosest sense of the word) has ruined my enjoyment of Lit stories. I'm always pulling apart new stories. Either they've got worse, or I've become more critical.

The Earl