Grassroots Discussion: Psychocatblah 7-04

[Pure]

We are pleased to have some fine erotic horror:

The Ends, ch 1.

(reader discretion is advised, some scenes are incestuous and/or contain material that may be objectionable to the overly sensitive)

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=114461


All critics are warned that this author is capable of correctly deploying the word 'accoutrements' in the first para., and is not a person one would like to meet, angered, in a dark cellar passageway of a library.

 

[psychocatblah]

We are pleased to have some fine erotic horror:

The Ends, ch 1.

(reader discretion is advised, some scenes are incestuous and/or contain material that may be objectionable to the overly sensitive)

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=114461


All critics are warned that this author is capable of correctly deploying the word 'accoutrements' in the first para., and is not a person one would like to meet, angered, in a dark cellar passageway of a library.

Haha! I'm a pussy cat, really! But yes, it is fairly intense and it's meant to sort of thrust you into the horror instantly. Mission accomplished, I guess. *snorts*

 

[Pure]

Psychocat's statement about issues of concern:

Well.. I guess in the end I was trying to push some limits in some ways but I also wanted to tell a good story. I like to spin a good tale and I was playing with the concept of attraction/repulsion in some ways clearly. I guess I was thinking of this as more of a technical exercise than necessarily a "I like to read about frustrated housewives getting their revenge" sort of idea

 

[Lying Eyes]

We are pleased to have some fine erotic horror:

The Ends, ch 1.

(reader discretion is advised, some scenes are incestuous and/or contain material that may be objectionable to the overly sensitive)

Erotic horror and incest... I'm running away...

Hope someone else isnt scared away and gives your work some good insight.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

This wasn't really something I would think of as a story. It’s more like a situation, a day in the life. It doesn’t go anywhere.

In my book a story involves change. Something happens to the characters so that they come out at the end different than they went in at the beginning. Or something happens that is unusual and exceptional enough to warrant telling about it. I don’t see anything like that happening here. As far as I can understand, all she does is snort coke, get fucked, call her brother, and get pulled out of the bath tub. Am I missing something?

Some of the writingis very good, very dense and layered, but at the same time it’s so dense that I never quite got a handle on what was going on. Did she like having sex with her father or not? My feeling is that she didn’t; she just did it for the drugs. Okay. That doesn’t make me especially interested in her though. That’s just kind of sordid and sad.

Her father: what’s the significance of this big occult past? It leads nowhere in the story, and has no ramifications or implications that I could see. Why mention it at all? Why is he fucking her? Because he can? Or does that have some occult significance?

Barnabas: I never was clear on his relationship with her. He resents her, but why? What does that have to do with anything? Thomas: is that affair incestuous as well? Kind of sounds like it, but I couldn’t be sure. He seemed like he was the straight one, but then we learn he’s plotting to take over his father’s cult. Good luck with that, but why should we care? What does that have to do with Charlotte?

Finally Nemesio. He sems to be in love with her, but she’s not in love with him. Or is she? In any case, she seems to be willing to show him affection. But then she seems to be willing to fuck anyone who steps between her legs.

Despite the fact that I had a very diffcult time deciphering what was going on, I liked the writing overall. It was very thick and dense and had a nice gothic feel without falling into the usual Lord Ravenscroft cape & candle sort of thing that’s so common in erotic horror, You got the feeling from the prose that there were currents and cross-currents running through all of their lives, and that in itself is quite an achievement. If only someone had done something!

As for the erotic horror, there’s a fine line between horror and disgust, and I think this one falls more on the disgusting side of the line. I think too, that the idea of an 80 year-old man having sex with anyone is so exceptional that I was almost rooting for him. But I see too that you chose to dilute the incestuous angle by having her grow up apart from her father for most of her life. They hardly know each other.

In the end I have to say that it was an interesting if confusing trip, but it would have been better if it had gone somewhere.

---dr.M.

 

[psychocatblah]

This wasn't really something I would think of as a story. It’s more like a situation, a day in the life. It doesn’t go anywhere.

Hm, well it does go on for another 24 chapters, it's actually the first chapter in a novella... so some of it i wouldn't really want to necessarily have happen all in the first chapter.

You do make some good points about the relationships being confusing. On one hand, they are confusing and should be, but on the other... if it's not creating interest in finding out more of what's going on with the characters then it's failing as a first chapter.

I agree that the action is a little confusing, I see in my head what's going on, but I think I'm having a hard time expressing it. What do you do to get over that? Just going over it again and again until it makes more sense? Does the drug usage clutter it up too much?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Pure]

Lying Eyes said,

Erotic horror and incest... I'm running away...

Hope someone else isnt scared away and gives your work some good insight.

With all due respect, this is a writers forum. Some writers write about unpalatable acts--read 'Macbeth'? 'The Black Cat'?

There are some *acts*, certainly, that 'scare me away'. For example, seeing someone get a knife in the stomach, slowly; or getting his head cut off, swiftly.

Yet I enjoyed the hell out of 'Kill Bill 1'.

I'd hope everyone here could appreciate the distinction.

But Lying, of course, we all have our tastes, and your thoughtful postings--and all others-- are most appreciated on those works you choose to enjoy.

 

[psychocatblah]

Thanks. I do understand, though, that there is a big squick factor to this chapter especially. Though I did it for a purpose; namely to draw some lines for what characters were whom and what they were about, it is a viable point that the content is probably a big reason as to why it is it's ranking so low.

So really, that's fair enough.

What I find amusing is that chapter 4 of this storyline has gone hot. (Please don't bomb me!) which is the Chapter where you really find out more about Thomas. It's yet another fairly brutal chapter although despite what I've been told about the popularity of incest, doesn't depict an incestual sex scene.

So... I dunno. Do any of you all have multiple chapter work? Do you keep it all in one category or do you often switch them out depending on the content? Because the story does span a few different categories. It could be incest, non-con, in parts gay. Althogh overall I thought it was more horror than anything else.

 

[Pure]

Comments:

Some nice writing, but rough in spots.

Examples:
fortune in tact
taught muscle
who’s body

There are some fine sentences and evocation of horror, moral corruption, sleaziness, odiousness, and other of life's staples.
Oh, nice on lust (incestuous no less), too, and the courage to show it in a depraved, though not unsympathetic female.

Also I liked B's degradation of her, and the pervasive air of corruption in everyone.


I consider this overwritten and a bit rough (note the two 'softs'):

Her breath was gaspy, wet, afraid, but aroused. With each heated sigh, the taught muscles under her chest moved her small breasts, undulating them before her father. The man had no choice but to move forward, pulling its pointed nerves into his mouth, lick it with his tongue, around it to savor it and then finally nibble at it, his other hands moving to her sides and under her, forcing her back to arch. He kept rubbing at her gently, not entering her still. Just caressing her between her legs, brushing the soft down of her sex with each soft pass, blowing over it. He ran his tongue over the top of it lightly before moving his index fingers to either lip, pulling them away to expose her very entrails to him.
-----

Very nicely done:

“Father?” he asked in a panicked voice. “What did you do to him, you stupid bitch?” His hand rose and fell across her cheek sharply and the she savored the addition of the hint of copper to the back of her throat.

She kicked her father violently off of her as her hands moved up to cover her face from further blows while she scrambled to get at least an arm’s length from Barnabas. Glaring at Charlotte, Barnabas caught his father before he toppled to the floor and laid him back on the bed as his sister moved to the other side of the room. The cotton of her gown stuck to her in patches of sweat and semen and she used the length of it between her legs to wipe her father's leavings there. “He just passed out,” she said bluntly, turning to lock away in the bathroom.

Barnabas called for Nemesio, his other brother to help him with his father and the nursemaid who was on duty. Nemesio found it humorous that the old man actually got it up and fucked her. That was a rare occurrence. Score one for the old guy. Barnabas on the other hand wished that Charlotte were the one slumped now at death’s door.

In Barnabas’ mind, she was but poor gutter trash with a bad dye job and too thin. Living with many levels of debt and studying to be a nurse, with aspirations to be a Doctor, the girl had dreams. She dreamt big. Helping people, working in the poor parts of town, that’s what she thought she wanted. It was all too easy to seduce her to the house. Barnabas smiled at himself.

First they paid for school, pulled strings to get her enrolled. Then she’d made a new friend… a friend who was mostly a friend to Barnabas, who had some problems. Namely, he had a drug problem. Women loved boys in trouble. She was dumped out of school early and easily for sneaking drugs to her new friend. And it was even easier to get her to start using them. She’d never follow her chosen field now, not that she’d been so disgraced and with drug charges on her record. Never.

She came home from school in shame, strung out and begging for another chance. Their father was still in jail, so it fell to Barnabas to show her what her second chance would be at the mansion. Her role was as a pretty face, a toy, someone to pick on. She was small, young, and pliable in their hands, and seemed to take to it easily.

Ever since her return, however, she’d been so willing and quiet that Barnabas had a hard time even getting aroused. If she wasn’t screaming and begging him not to take her, it was hardly worth removing his pants for. Charlotte had become useless to him, and now even worse, she seemed to be taking up too much of his father’s time. She was a fine hobby for fucking, but he seemed to honestly enjoy coming up with new little plans to torment her mind, to break her. While it was often amusing to watch as she railed against him and screamed and cried when she realized that she’d yet again been duped, the in between times were just sad and annoying.

----

Overall, as to your experiment, I'd say mixed success, but it's hard to judge a chapter.

I feel a bit too much was introduced. Sometimes, when you fill in the past, as in the quote above, it's rather nice, and you have a gift for compression.

I'd say the stage is set, but a bit cluttered.

In the horror genre, a bit of 'purple' is required and allowed. At the same time I have a bit the feeling of 'too much', or at least too much in cheap effects.

Pardon my asking, but the impression is that it kind of 'rushed out'' and the piece doesn't always seem carefully pruned and chosen.

---
On a couple of mab's points (in an otherwise very well considered review), not studied till now: I'm not sure I agree about 'no story', though there is a bit much of events. The Barnabas sequence is a story.

Perhaps the problem is with the ending, which needs to be more definite, not just further facts. (Of course I realize some chapters, including endings, do not amount to a story.) SEE BELOW

As to horror, not disgust. Well, read Baudelaire's poem about the rotting corpse. SEE AT END

----

As to the end, here is what I'd do.

Virtually eliminate the call to Thomas, or most of its detail.

Compress Nemesio, so there's less gabbing, editorializing and psychoanalysis (for now).

Something like:

It made Nemesio jealous and angry that she would call him and for good measure he stomped at the phone, destroying it in a manic urge to destroy her fondness for their brother. He threw her down on the bed, his face covered in tears.

“I… I can’t lose you…” he felt like his world would fall apart if she weren’t there.

Charlotte felt his hot wet tears on his face and wrapped around him like a child and she muttered she was sorry. Her mind was racing with the drugs but her body gave out and she fell into a strange sleep, a waking dream, as her brother held her and rocked her all night.

[pure's revision, with much chopping]

----
"Carrion"
by Charles Baudelaire

Remember, my soul, the thing we saw that lovely summer day?
On a pile of stones where the path turned off, the hideous carrion-
legs in the air, like a whore - displayed, indifferent to the last,
a belly slick with lethal sweat and swollen with foul gas.

The sun lit up that rottenness as though to roast it through,
restoring to Nature a hundredfold what she had here made one.
And heaven watched the splendid corpse like a flower open wide-
you nearly fainted dead away at the perfume it gave off.

Flies kept humming over the guts from which a gleaming clot
of maggots poured to finish off what scraps of flesh remained.
The tide of trembling vermin sank, then bubbled up afresh
as if the carcass, drawing breath, by their lives lived again
and made a curious music there - like running water, or wind,
or the rattle of chaff the winnower loosens in his fan.

Shapeless - nothing was left but a dream the artist had sketched in,
forgotten, and only later on finished from memory.
Behind the rocks an anxious bitch eyed us reproachfully,
waiting for the chance to resume her interrupted feast.

- Yet you will come to this offence, this horrible decay,
you, the light of my life, the sun and the moon and the stars of my love!
Yes, you will come to this, my queen, after the sacraments,
when you rot underground among the bones already there.

But as their kisses eat you up, my Beauty, tell the worms
I've kept the sacred essence, saved the form of my rotted loves!

 

[psychocatblah]

Hm. I'm not sure I'd say I wrote it in so much of a rush as that this story took me about a year to finally sit down and complete and that I've grown a bit in learning tricks to express myself since this was written?

I do see what you're talking about. I was definitely hamfisting some psychology into it in my rush to get people into the minds of my characters when really, the dalogue was there that illustrated the point I was trying to make. Or if it doesn't I guess the dialogue should change.

Do you think this takes enough out of the phone call?

Thomas answered the phone, checking the caller ID. “Hello beautiful,” he enthused very softly against the backdrop of a meeting. “You’ve caught me at a rather strange time…” his voice nuzzled her like a lost lover.

“I… I… just wanted to hear you. Father… and… Barnabas…” Charlotte whimpered into the phone.

“I have to go,” he said, despite his urge to fly to her. He had more pressing matters, like taking over the Order from his father, and this meeting with the lawyers was part of that. If she didn’t have any new information for him right now, he really did need to go. Closing the phone, he ended the conversation.

It's important to know that Thomas is betraying his father and that the majority of his reason for contact with his sister is for inside information. It comes up more dramatically in a later chapter so right now I just wanted it hinted at. Do you think that works better?

 

[Pure]

Hi Psycho,

Yes, it would be possible to end with the Thomas stuff. Though it might be less emotionally satisfying.

You have to resist the inclination to tell all, esp. at that point. A few things may just be hinted at.

If you want my suggestion--and I'm working in the dark, out on a limb, etc.-- not knowing what hooks are needed.

Thomas answered the phone, checking the caller ID. He was in a meeting, but his little sister was always a valuable resource of information and, inasmuch as he could love, he did love her. “Hello beautiful,” he cooed very softly. “You’ve caught me at a rather strange time…” his voice nuzzled her like a lost lover. She moaned quietly into the phone. He felt himself excite, but his voice did not change.

“I… I… just wanted to hear you…father… and… Barnabas…” Charlotte whimpered into the phone. It was so pathetic, she knew. He smiled. “I have to go,” he said, despite his urge to fly to her, to hold her and love her knowing exactly what she was going to say, what had happened.

He had more pressing matters; with the lawyers' help he'd soon wrest control of the cult from the pathetic old fucker.

In revising, I notice lots of repetition, like 'hanging up the phone, ending the conversation."

 

[psychocatblah]

Oh, I was still going to end with Nem, I was just trying to cut down somewhat on the overthinking/writing of the phone call itself, taking it down to more of its bare necessities to try to clear the plate a little and push to the forefront what's going to matter later.

Dr. Mab did note that Char wasn't part of the family till later although the point of that wasn't necessarily to mitigate the effect of the incest, just for what comes much later in the story. Which I can talk about if you're all interested or I can leave it.

I have edited this chapter before and that is probably why it gets repetitive and perhaps a little overwritten in places. I think I went back meaning to spell some things out a bit better and define them but perhaps I simply ended up garbling them further.

Like with closing the phone and ending the conversation... I was probably thinking that not everyone has had a closable phone and might not realise that that is hanging up. Although, what else they might think it meant... I can't really say But that's why I wanted help And thanks, really!

 

[Pure]

Perhaps the Thomas thing, and the {correction: Nemesio} can both be tightened up, {added: and leave Nemesio for last}.
I've now given each a shot.

BTW, there are some pretty weird characters showing on my screen in your last posting (like a C with two horizontal lines through it; also a square box). Perhaps you are pasting from a high level word processing program, and the basic ascii is almost obscured. (I'm guessing; I'm no techie.)

Example:
“I… I… just wanted to hear you. Father… and… Barnabas…” Charlotte whimpered into the phone.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

If this is the first chapter in a novel, then that’s a horse of an entirely different color. You should have told us that. That explains a lot.

I’m pretty conservative in my ideas about novels. Usually I want to know what I’m getting myself into when I read the first chapter: I want to know what the main issue is, and what the book’s going to be about. Either that, or you’ve got to hook me with some really delicious writing or characterization, and I don’t know if that’s an option for you because all these characters as presented are not exactly the most attractive people in the world.

Thinking about this though, it occurs to me that the real climax of the piece is the sex, and I think it might have been a mistake to shoot your wad right there at the start. Everything that happens after the sex is (no pun intended) anti-climactic, and we’re kind of left wondering what that was all about. I really think this whole thing would have worked better had you saved the encounter with the old man for the end.

You might have started the piece with some sort of dysfunctional-family crisis. I don’t know what, almost anything would do: Charlotte locking herself in the bathroom, the brothers trying to change a light bulb. Anything that would give the characters an opportunity to present themselves to the reader, because really, you’ve got some pretty interesting characters here and an extremely interesting family. That way you could also build up the mystery about the old man, so that when he came on the scene we’d be ready to meet with him. Then the sex, and then we see why Charlotte’s such a mess. Done right, that could make the sex even creepier than it is.

That’s kind of a major change, I know, and it’s easy for me to suggest, since I wouldn’t have to rewrite it. But really, these characters need something to do that will move the story along as we're finding out about them. As it is, it’s kind of a very static “day-in-the-life” kind of thing, as I said. It's like they're forced to pose as you tell us about them, and that's would makes it feel like it has no real direction.

One more thing: I believe that characters best reveal themselves in the things they do and how they do them. Coming right out and explaining things to the reader should be a method of last resort. I think we can pretty well figure out how Barnabas feels about Charlotte from what happens during their interaction. You really don’t have to come out and expand on it. Same is true with Nemesio, even Thomas for that matter. Cutting some of that expository clutter out of there would better help the action stand out from the background chatter and cut down on some of the prose density.

Another one last thing: I wonder if you had considered the fact that you have a perfect set-up for a kind of black comedy here. I have no idea of what a mixtue of black comedy and erotic horror would be like in the end, but there just seems to me to be something inherently kind of comic in the idea of 3 or 4 would-be evil magicians sharing a house with their drugged sister/daughter. Or is that just my own twisted sense of humor?

Anyhow, you've got a very interesting paleete of characters to work with here. I just think they need some direction: something to do. Did you say that Chapter 2 was already up?
---dr.M.

 

[Pure]

here's one for ya,mab and others (mab entioned it)

what aside from resemblance to ourselves makes us care about a character?

(Why is the daughter/woman uncare-about-able? Would we have to see 'resistance' to what's going on by way of fucking, demeaning, exploiting her?)

Alternatively, perhaps the author doesn't want us to think twice of the daughter; then we would have to care about at least one other person. How could we be made to 'care' about, say, one of the brothers?

 

[psychocatblah]

Another one last thing: I wonder if you had considered the fact that you have a perfect set-up for a kind of black comedy here. I have no idea of what a mixtue of black comedy and erotic horror would be like in the end, but there just seems to me to be something inherently kind of comic in the idea of 3 or 4 would-be evil magicians sharing a house with their drugged sister/daughter. Or is that just my own twisted sense of humor?

Anyhow, you've got a very interesting paleete of characters to work with here. I just think they need some direction: something to do. Did you say that Chapter 2 was already up?
---dr.M.

"This is the true story of five family members, picked to live in a house to find out what happens when people stop being polite and start getting real. The Real Magicians!"

*giggles*

It does have some possibilities, I do add some humor breaks later in the piece but it does have some possibilities as even that. I could parody my own work

Sorry, I thought I'd mentioned the name being The Ends, Ch 1, but maybe I did that somewhere else on another day, doh! Yep, chapters 2-25 are up so it's pretty well finished, I'm going to eventually rework the whole thing I just feel like Chapter 1 really was where the sore spot was. Especially since I'd gone back and revised/revisted it and still wasn't happy with it. But then it's hard to look at your baby and call it ugly even if you know it is. Even harder to put your finger on what's ugly about it, so I had to ask

I do think you and Pure are both right about the exposition, it's handled rather indelicately. I'll have to think on starting it out somewhere else... I guess I had thought that beginning it that way would be a really shocking bit of action to start things off with. But you do have a point that it does blow the wad at the start and that character development in afterglow is harder to sell. I'll try it your way, I need to think of how I'd want to start it. In later chapters it does bear out how routine a lot of this is, although the old guy getting it up is more rare

You should care about the daughter, I did try to build in the idea that she was a good person with a good heart who wanted to help people until this family got a hold of her. At this point she's pretty well given up. She's strong in that she's surviving it, but it really is 4 to 1 and fighting it is a little like fighting the will of a Merry Go Round from the perspective of one of the horses.

They all end up on a journey of some sorts, obviously something big happens to them and they have to sort out where they stand or just where they end up landing.

My ascii is weird, sometimes it shows up fine in here and sometimes it gets gibberishy. It is a copy of Word. I can save it down to text only, which is usually what I do before posting, want me to have another go at posting that section?

 

[psychocatblah]

Arg, forgot to post the link to

Chapter 2

Or if you like, my clangy bangy link to all submissions so you can get to all of the chapters.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

here's one for ya,mab and others (mab entioned it)

what aside from resemblance to ourselves makes us care about a character?

(Why is the daughter/woman uncare-about-able? Would we have to see 'resistance' to what's going on by way of fucking, demeaning, exploiting her?)

Alternatively, perhaps the author doesn't want us to think twice of the daughter; then we would have to care about at least one other person. How could we be made to 'care' about, say, one of the brothers?

That’s a question that I rank right up there with “How do I write a good story?” An eternal mystery.

I think there have to be some grounds for either entertainment or empathy to make us care about a character. There are some characters who just fascinate us because they’re so entertaining, and we want to see what they’ll get up to next. That doesn’t mean that they have to put on a show for us or always have a rollicking good time. The old man in Psycho’s story is entertaining, from the little I’ve seen of him. We want to know what he’ll do next, and what makes him tick.

Maybe ‘curiosity’ is a better word than ‘entertaining’, but that doesn’t tell the whole story. I’ve seen stories where the protag is interesting, but just so unlikable that I consciously choose not to spend any time with him. (There seem to be a lot of male protags like this at Lit, especially in BDSM.) He’s just an unpleasant companion, and makes you feel uncomfortable or downright sleazy.

There had to be some empathy. You have to be able to empathize and identify with the character on some level, and I think that’s more to the point for Charlotte in Psychocat’s story. I didn’t feel much empathy for her in this chapter because basically it seems like she has no real heart or desires. I know, she calls Thomas, and she tries to drown herself, but that seems like small potatoes comapred to her overall passivity, and I really had the feeling that had the converstaion with Thomas continued, she just would have tried to finagle more dope out of him, and even her attempted drowning had a sordid, oh-who-gives-a-shit feeling to it. All that business about nursing school and being a doctor had a very tacked-on feel to it; very artificial, and, truth be told, I didn’t buy a word of it. Maybe it’s stock-in-trade of TV dramas about how dope ruins someone’s life, but we all know that’s not true. Dope ruins the life of people who are ready to have their lives ruined anyhow. That old “reefer-madness” stuff about one hit and you become a drug-crazed monster and your life turns into a sordid hell is just bull.

I could care about the brothers and the old man. Barnabas is anything but passive, the old man's evil is fascinating, and Nemisio seems crazy as a loon, always interesting. Thomas so far comes across as a stuffed suit. But these are people who do things that reveal stuff about them, things that will have consequences later on. There'll be the fun of seeing how their actions determine their fate, just like Socrates said. But Charlotte?

So she’s just too resigned for me to care much about her. For me, the most telling image about Charlotte is her lying under the just-fucked body of her 80 year-old father and rifling through his jacket for a couple lines of blow. Is this a person whom I want to spend a couple hours of my life with? I don’t think so. There’s a difference between being tragic and being sordid, and she comes across as just being sordid.

It wouldn’t take much though to make me care a little, but it has to be something she does and not something the author tells us about her. In fiction, a character’s actions always speak much louder than anything we’re told about them, and, silly as it sounds, a picture of her maybe sitting at her window and staring out at the street would have done wonders for her in my book. That would have showed me that she had aspirations that went beyond getting high &/or dying, that there was something inside her worth caring about. That would have made her seem more like a victim and less like an accomplice or an enabler.

In my opinion, there’s something very unattractive about passivity in fiction. It turns us off. Maybe it’s because that in real life we find ourselves being passive victims so often that we don’t reallt care to read about it. It’s offensive. Even in the stock BDSM Abducted Princess story, the girl always has spirit. She may be helpless before Lord Ravenscroft’s evil machinations, but still she puts up a struggle. How interesting would it be to read about an abducted princess who just doesn’t give a fuck what happens to her? I mean, you know: at least show me a picture of her staring wistfully out the tower window.

So with Charlotte, it’s not at all clear to me whether she gives a damn or not, and so I just can’t empathize much with her. I only know that I wouldn’t be such a passive fuck-dummy if my own 80 year-old mother were trying to get into my pants, and I think my emotional response would be a bit more pronounced than what she offers. I could imagine (probably) some scenario where I might be helpless to leave such a situation, but it would have considerably more emotional depth and nuance than what we’re offered here. But then you’re getting into the real emotional consequences of parent-child incest, a subject which no one on Lit really seems prepared to deal with, because it’s so inherently unerotic. So we get the sanitized, “oh, well he was away from her her whole life” kind of incest, in which they’re actually strangers as far as we can tell, and related by blood only insofar as the author happens to mention the fact.

---dr.M.

 

[psychocatblah]

Actually her passivity is what is important to the story a little ways down the road. She is meant to be pretty pathetic and weak and pretty much it is that choice of hers to just let go that causes her the biggest amount of trouble later on.

The point of the little side story about the medical school side story is that she'd wanted to help people, that was really her goal, that she was so easily distracted from it insofar as Barnabas was concerned (who was sort of the one telling the story) just made her seem rather weak and pathetic. They're opposites in that way.

It's not that I don't want Charlotte to be sympathetic, she's one of the main characters, yes and in that way I don't want everyone grinding their teeth at having to read about her. I think in the end it's Barnabas who is the real hero to the story in that he experiences the most change.

The first chapter is more about just showing the depravity, and honestly the drugs are Charlotte's cheap way of dealing with the incest or more about being used or all of the above. The reason that it's important that they're related isn't necessarily for the kink value so much as the running theme of family and blood and how much nature vs. nurture dictates who you are and how you behave. Of course, at the end it is extremely important that they're related for an altogether different reason.

But no, the drugs aren't meant to be, "Ooh it's bad, reefer madness!" They're not ultimately what ruined her life, it was her choices that did that. The drugs just help her live with that. If it really comes across as an admonition against drugs then I should rewrite it. I don't think everyone who does drugs develops a problem with it (Hey! I can quit anytime I want *smirks*) but certain personalities will glam onto them and make drugs the cornerstone of their existance and that's pretty well what she's done.

But for this piece she is the firestarter, and not because she's particularly strong or even vicious. In fact, it's her very resignation and lack of spirit that gets the ball rolling. Which is really why my first chapter is so important. Now I'm worried how tacked on the medical school story sounds... hm. Maybe I should dumb her down a little more; although she's not entirely stupid... just easily led. Hmmm...

 

[cantdog]

from Zoot:Thinking about this though, it occurs to me that the real climax of the piece is the sex, and I think it might have been a mistake to shoot your wad right there at the start. Everything that happens after the sex is (no pun intended) anti-climactic, and we’re kind of left wondering what that was all about. I really think this whole thing would have worked better had you saved the encounter with the old man for the end.

Brilliant. A lot of things become clearer when you think cut-and-paste. We are too trapped in chronological order sometimes. So let's do the thought experiment. Sex last. Where do we put "you stupid bitch," then, Zoot? Chapter Two? No.

Okay, so we end with stupid bitch? But the important thing about him is, he set out to ruin her life, he brought her here. Yet paradoxically, he defers to his father all over this scene. Once Dad comes home, it's Dad first; he only takes up after Dad's through, and only if it doesn't fuck Dad up. Before Dad's return, though, he had a definite agenda. A static one, as far as we know, but all his. (Static in the sense of keeping her pinned; not involved with a future plan, just a here-and-now desire to keep her pinned down.) We need this early, I suppose. Hard to say.

The 'phone call we can put anywhere in time... But nah. The order may as well stand. Maybe the beginning of Two has a kicker we can use?

 

[neonlyte]

I've read the first three chapters, curious to see how you move the story forward. Ok you don't, the next two chapters barely begin to explain the events of the first chapter, though we learn a little more about the brothers in chapter 3.

There is no time line linkage between 1 and 2, it's implied, in 1 she falls asleep wrapped in Nemesio, in 2 she wakes alone. Is it the next morning? Or another time altogether. This isn't a problem until you read 3 and learn she is Nemesio's toy/possession, he barely lets her out of his sight.

Chapter 2, slower, even delicate in comparisum to 1, simply reinforces degradation, complete and utter subrogation is indicated without any explanation for why she should perform this role. She has no reward, no motive, no pleasure; drugs taken to dull pain not to excuse behaviour.

I'm willing to accept there is more explanation down the line, it is clear that there is a structure, in your mind, underpinning all of this from what I have read thus far. Some begins to be revealed in 3.

You are writing about dysfunctionalism and using the starkest possible canvas. No problems with that, and I assume that somewhere down the line you will draw forth the angst from Charlotte, possibly Thomas, necessary to give perspective. Simply stepping into oblivion (last chapter) wont do it for me. Is there something in between?

There is emotional coolness in the parts I have read, that's fine by me, it would be difficult to get close to any of these characters, yet you manage to evoke a degree of sexuality in the describing the acts contained within an overall air of repulsion. That takes skill. Specifically the scene in the back of the car, chpt 2, though I could live without “Yes, yes, come on Tad, do it, fuck me… fuck me hard,”, it is the cleaning herself with a tissue that cuts back from coarseness into the realm of reality. The edgy tenderness in Nemesio retriving her from the back of the car, congratulating her on her skill chillingly sets up chpt 3.

A great deal has been said by others about Chpt 1. In my view it contains both too much and too little. I understand why you want to plunge readers directly into a spiral of degradation. Have more faith in your writing abilities, I could have used some additional explanation of the cult, the family and why Charlotte allows herself to be used.

For me, this experience is likened to viewing a collective art show, twenty-five artists, single canvases all on the same theme, I want to know how they reached that stage in their painting, why that theme? why that style? But then, that's just me.

neon (wills)

 

[Black Tulip]

Psychocatblah,

Sorry it took so long, but real life kept interfering. LOL

I read your story and my first remark has to be that you put together a heavy mix of horror and incest.

Horror is a category I normally avoid and incest is not my first choice either. If it has to be than please not between a parent and a child.

Great, you had it all.

Having said all that, you will understand I cannot tell you if your story is sexually arousing or not. Well, not for me, but maybe it is for people who do like these categories.

Off to the story itself.

I think you did good by starting him out as a normal parent watching his child sleep, than telling us he is 80 years old.
By the way, I liked the name Osiric. Nice occult touch to it.
The names for the sons were good too in my opinion.

Another nice thouch:

He let his hands like spiders creep down

That could be a cliché, but I appreciated it.

Now the things I did not like:

figurines of angels that it took all of her will not to smash on a daily basis.

This suggests a violent side to Charlotte, but it doesn't show in the rest of the story. A pity in my opinion.

The contrast between the body enjoying the attention and the mind wanting to be violent could be sharper, I think.

He ran his tongue over the top of it lightly before moving his index fingers to either lip, pulling them away to expose her very entrails to him.

The word "entrails" feels wrong to me. I have visions of slaughtered pigs, but that could be just me or it could be what you aimed for. LOL

his legs around his thighs

A very confusing typo.

her mind on someone else touching her, someone else moving inside of her, anyone else, anyone but this man who gave her life who’s body was desiccating even as he fucked her.

Could that be Thomas? I think that would tie him in more to the rest of the story. See my remark about the story in general.

She felt he had pushed to the edge of death and now she was waving a hello to return.

It could be my grasp of the English language, but I don't understand this sentence.

Overal I think you have ideas enough, but what I miss most is a connection between the different paragraphs. You could use more reference words (not sure this is the correct English term) to make it a unity. Words like "meanwhile, on the other hand, at the same time, however, also".

A question: did you delete public comments? After I read the story I saw some of them 'advertised' but clicking on showed nothing. I thought they would be deleted completely then. Maybe something went wrong?

I hope my comments will be helpful.

Off to read what the others have said.



Edited: How many chapters? Yea, sure, ideas enough. LOL But I see now that my comment about not enough connection was mentioned by others as too much information crammed into a first chapter.

 

[Black Tulip]

here's one for ya,mab and others (mab entioned it)

what aside from resemblance to ourselves makes us care about a character?

(Why is the daughter/woman uncare-about-able? Would we have to see 'resistance' to what's going on by way of fucking, demeaning, exploiting her?)

Alternatively, perhaps the author doesn't want us to think twice of the daughter; then we would have to care about at least one other person. How could we be made to 'care' about, say, one of the brothers?

Whoa, speak for yourselves!

I know, I came on a little late, but there's nothing wrong with Charlotte in the field of being identifiable. Is that a word?

Or is that telling you all what a really sick person I am myself? LOL I think she is definitely split between mind and body. It could be more defined, but it's there with the attraction-repulsion bit as well.

Off to reading the rest of it.

Oh, I did not grasp the fact it was part 1 from a whole lot of them either.

 

[neonlyte]

I've had an opportunity to reflect on Psy...'s stories over a fairly decent lunch.

I'm reasonable comfortable with the view this series of story's is more to do with degradation than anything else. One is hard pushed to find a redeeming aspect in any of the characters. Indeed, in the sections I have read, the writer seems to be exercising every possible means to ensure characters have no redeeming quality.

Taking this perspective, who well has the writer succeeded. Well, she avoids the trap of a 'happy ending' for the survivors there is no escape route.

She touches all of the right buttons, for example not only is incest covered from the start but she chooses the most repulsive character, 4 times the age of the daughter, to perpetrate the act.

Charlotte then does her families bidding never displaying pleasure (good) except when left to her own ministrations (shower Chpt 2), even this occurs in a manner I suspect most would not choose.

To a degree, the incest is irrelevant, and I now suspect I will find no angst in unread (by me) chapters. This series is exploring the baseness of (human) nature, dropping almost to a sub-human level in pursuit of humiliation. Even the male names, except Thomas, edge the border of acceptable names.

I'm curious enough to read more. I take no enjoyment in the story but in the story telling. I'm curious to see if you can maintain this standard through the 21 chapters I've not read.
Note: I'm not commenting on sentence construction, story construction/logic or word selection, just the projection.

 

[Pure]

Hi Neon and cant; hi Black.

And anyone else who's around.

Volunteers for July 18 or after?

(state any extended periods you'll be out of town)