Grassroots Disc: the story "Proud" 10-03-04, SDC common queue

[Pure]

The next story for discussion is "Proud."

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=114752

You are also requested, despite your inferences as to authorship, to refer to the author, in your critical remarks, as s/he is designated at the head of the story, tail_teller.

A couple questions, from the author, besides the usual:

Hello ppl:

The story attempts to break out of the 'nonconsent' bogus/fantasy scenario. (A number of stories, there, now do.) The "O my, I'm being raped, stop, stop, oooh, I'm coming, let me eat your spunk, my dearest savage man" plot.

Was the effort worth it, or did any sexiness or erotism disappear?

{{Revised and clarified 10-08. I attempted a *story* so I doubt many patches of crotchgrabbing porn survived; but it's a question whether a kind of twisted erotism came through. Would this have any appeal/fascination to particular readers, in the way that 'erotic horror' has for certain certain people.}}

The story attempts a psychological portrait of rapist as--to use a current term--a sort of Raskolnikov. Does it seem to have any plausibility?

Does the 'psychological warfare' (systematic efforts to demean), as it were, against the woman seem to have any plausibility. How does the woman's character come across, if it does.?

 

[Varian P]

Wow, Tail, this is a brave piece of writing. I really like it, as I appreciate stories that make me uncomfortable, explore ugly characters, and dare to depict the fucked up side of human nature.

My immediate, gut reaction is that your premise is the strong point of the story, and that, while overall it's quite well-written, it needs a bit of finessing to really get me there as far as character development and the progression of the main scene. Not that it's far off, but I did get hung up on a few things. Of course, it's quite possible that I'm just misconstruing some things and blindly stepping over subtleties that would get me there if I were a more insightful reader, so take what you will from this.

First, your questions,

The story attempts to break out of the 'nonconsent' bogus/fantasy scenario. (A number of stories, there, now do.) The "O my, I'm being raped, stop, stop, oooh, I'm coming, let me eat your spunk, my dearest savage man" plot.

Was the effort worth it, or did any sexiness or erotism disappear?

Hmmm. To me, these are two different questions. My answer is, yes, absolutely, it was worth it, and yes, much of the sexiness/eroticism disappeared.

As an example: Georges Bataille. IMO, brilliant writer. The two books of his I've read, "Story of the Eye," and "Blue of Noon," are a disturbing brand of erotica, wherein the characters have *problems*, tend to eroticize and fetishize things most people wouldn't find erotic (eggs in the toilet, anyone?). I don't tend to get hot reading Bataille, but I think his works are supremely worthwhile.

If you're only interested in writing erotica that gets people hot & horny, my personal opinion is that this story is still worthwhile, but a few things would have to change to make the erotic element stronger.

The main thing which I think would need to happen is that the characters' feeling would have to come across more. This may be somewhere between difficult and impossible given the emotionally detached nature of your narrator. But everything is conveyed in a rather cold, distant tone, so even when he's getting hard at making her do things, I'm not feeling his arousal, and even when he tells me she's crying, I'm not feeling her terror, and when they orgasm, I'm not feeling it, either.

This doesn't make it bad writing—I think it fits the narrator very well. But it's too cold to make me hot.

The story attempts a psychological portrait of rapist as--to use a current term--a sort of Raskolnikov. Does it seem to have any plausibility?

I thought this worked well—I like your use of the bible and of Poe to begin revealing the Raskolnikov in your narrator, and the way the biblical passage, in particular, comes up repeatedly as he plays at being god throughout the story.

There are other issues with the narrator that give me pause, but I'll address them as I go through the text.

Does the 'psychological warfare' (systematic efforts to demean), as it were, against the woman seem to have any plausibility.

His approach to demeaning her seems quite plausible to me.

How does the woman's character come across, if it does.?

My biggest difficulty with this story was with the woman's character. I do think you've actually got a lot going on with her that I'm failing to grasp—aspects of her nature arising from stuff that's happened to her in the past. But I began to figure that out well after she was doing and saying things that had me in disbelief. I'll address specifics as I go though the text.

That said, though, my personal experience with rape is, thankfully, limited, and I'm sure my perceptions of how people react are strongly rooted in movies and novels—not notable bastions of realism. Even if her reactions strike me as odd, they may be realistically representative of common coping strategies. In any case, other readers may feel dubious, as I did, and perhaps there's a choice to be made between accuracy and suspension of disbelief.

OK, on to the text:

I like the opening paragraph—it gives us a lot of insight into the narrator's attitude, and to two of the key issues at work in his head: women, fucked up things happening for no reason. It also gives us a hint of what's coming—the narrator's association between god's power over people, and his own.

Finally, one hot night—it was towards the end of summer—after I was still sleepless at four in the morning, I saw. The senseless had happened to me long enough, thanks—Chelsea's perverse cruelty. I'd make it happen to someone else, pull that person's strings and see what that felt like.

Having read the whole story, I'm not clear on what Chelsea's perverse cruelty is. The narrator gets pissed about her bragging, her pride—is that the extent of it? If the narrator's a sociopath, he doesn't need a "good" reason for what he does, but this line is still confusing. In fact, I think it makes him all the scarier if there hasn't been any actual perverse cruelty—if we see exactly what we see later in the text, how Chelsea acts with and talks to him, and that is the source of his rage.

The woman wasn't advertising; nor was she avoiding attention:

The "nor" in this sentence bothered me, because it doesn't seem to fit with the narrator's voice. I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to think of the narrator—his level of education, his walk of life. My first impression—he's intelligent but not well educated, as he's getting his exposure to books through an 18-year-old. He works at the Tribune, but as a gopher, not a cub reporter or photographer. So when he comes out with things like "nor" amidst all the 'causes and sonofabitches, it rings false.

The little coffee brown twat was just asking for it, praying for it.

I like this insight into his creepy head.

I said, "You look fine," but I was thinking, Some booty you got there, babe. I gotta couple surprises for that.

She gave me a look like, stranger, what kind of crack have you crawled outa. "Please go away." Her walk had hardly slowed.

Let some other girls give you their take, but at the first passing comment of a random stranger, I ignore them and keep walking. Talking, even to say "go away" or "fuck off," is engaging the jerk, and I suspect most women don't do it.

Coy, she turned aside her butt so as not to 'present' herself;

Another nice glimpse of the narrator's twisted psyche, thinking she is being 'coy.'

"Thanks, mister."

"You got bad asthma, mister. You OK? "

This may be a total regional thing, but her 'mister, mister, mister' sounds contrived to me. I've never in my life heard anyone call someone 'mister' in this sort of context. His "miss" doesn't bother me as much, because he's trying to appear polite, and I think "miss" on its own is more commonly used than "mister" on its own.

"Thanks. I'm trim 'cause of my dancing.

I'm not buying this line, at all. A flat "thanks," possibly.

Yeah men notice me; big deal. I'm just as God made me. But they say I got my momma's legs."

OK, maybe they made a teensy connection over the asthma thing, but seriously? Why is she being so chatty and personal with this obviously creepy guy?

Maybe this one'll be different and not try to pull my strings.

Again, loving the glimpses into the psyche of the narrator—here he is, deliberately planning on brutally assaulting this woman, and he's thinking how she's likely to hurt him in some way.

"You have a right to be proud."

"I am. I like looking good."

Once again, don't know why she's saying these things, especially to him. I'd almost rather have him sitting on a bench, watching this woman with another woman and a couple guys, all flirting and talking trash, hearing her make little bragging comments like this so he can get her "proud" personality, then they all scatter to the four points and he follows her. I just can't see her engaging him this way.

"I do what I'm trying to do now." She was looking up the path ahead. "Must go. Gotta go."

"You look--."

She interrupted. "We've talked enough." No smile; a look of annoyance in her face.

Why isn't she just walking away?

Her struggling told me I was getting to her, but my left hand in her hair gave me control. "Cunt how's this?" With my other hand, I pulled and twisted the rubbery nipple under the silk. As the pain darkened her face, my spirits lit up.

"Ouch, you jerk, stop!" She did just what I'd seen before, reaching toward my hand with both of hers. Perfect!

I'm sorry—guy drags me into a grove of trees? I'm screaming my head off, and punching and kicking as hard as I can, not trying to grab his hand from my breast. As I said before, maybe her subdued reaction is common—out of shock, fear, disbelief, whatever. But I'm not believing it.

Hmmm, going back to the "Roskolnikov" comment, an aspect of R. which your narrator is missing is the incredibly thought-out, methodical approach. R. went to the old pawnbroker's a couple times, as I recall, to case the joint and do a dry run. This, I think, is an interesting aspect of the god-complex/sociopath—ensuring they are in complete control because they know what to expect. Your narrator gets away with what he's doing, but there's no reason he should. If she had acted differently, he'd be in deep shit.

To enhance the R. aspect of his character, and to allay some of my disbelief, one thing you might do is have him research how women respond to assault, and as the victim does this or that, he might have a little internal monologue commenting on her reactions as typical or bizarre. Maybe he uses some psychology on her, based on what he's read, to control her? Just a thought.

When that happened, I bent over, keeping hold of her pussy, rage-lust going from smolder to open flame. In my teeth, I seized the left nipple, her surprised scream making the music for my little opera.

Wonderfully, darkly poetic.

"Down all the way on it," I told her, and with my hand now free, I slapped her. My prick craved that suck. Guiding her head, I kept it bouncing up 'n down till my cock shot off in her throat;

So, looking at the above passage in light of your question about "losing sexiness," we know the narrator got hard, that his rage/lust went from smolder to open flame, and that he came. But there's not much here conveying the incredible erotic surge he's getting from his power over this girl, nor of the sensations of the blow job. So, to me, there's not much here that's erotic—even darkly erotic. I think you can tap into an ugly eroticism, with the narrator thinking something like, "Jesus, oh Jesus, Chelsea's mouth never felt hot and tight like this…" etc.

You're gonna fuck yourself for me." The order brought iron to my weapon.

Love that—again, rather poetic, and also demonstrative of how the psychology, rather than the physical, is what's getting him aroused.

"Don't hurt me. I don't know what the hell to do." Eyes downcast. She defers to me.

A chilling, effective passage.

The firm statement got to her,for she colored more darkly.

This seems out of character for the protagonist/antagonist. That happens a few times, more than once with a similar phrase starting with "for…"

but she must've known what I say in her eyes, for she stopped.

first phrase--???
Second phrase—again, seemingly out of character

The python was pricking up his ears

This image doesn't work for me, since snakes' ears aren't external/manipulable/visible, like cats' and dogs' ears which usually go with this expression.

"Time for three, honey, all the way. Leave the rubbing." She fumbled and looked mighty uncomfortable; the third finger had only entered past the first knuckle. "Yes, you're gonna have to hurt yourself. Or do you want some help?

Gosh, I do hate to be so horribly graphic (will I offend your delicate sensibilities? ) but, ahem, when I look at 3 of my fingers in a likely penetrative gesture, they're cumulatively rather smaller, in my experience, than the average python. Even if my hands are a bit smaller than average, I'm not buying that her 3 fingers are likely to prove such an insurmountable obstacle. Perhaps this cruel "your gonna have to hurt yourself" jibe would be better placed with the full-hand entry, later.

Hurriedly I bundled my coat into a pad and put it on top the rock. I half dragged her over next to it. "Here's what you're gonna do after you take off the mini. You're gonna fuck yourself with your whole goddamn hand." I was jolted by a crazed energy. There was an almost physical taste of power in my mouth. "Bunch up the tips of your fingers and thumb of your right hand, all of them. That hand goes on the bundle, with your fingers pointing up. You're gonna sit on 'em." The rock and the upward pointing fingers would be a kind of obscene phallic altar.

"How?"

"Lie back and support yourself with your left hand, arch your back and lift up that ass. Then lower your cunt onto your fingers, keeping them stiff. Sit on 'em."

"It won't work."

"It's gonna. You'll open for me. Here, I got something for your hand." I produced a jar of Vaseline from my pocket, opened it.

"Shove your fingers in the jar, get lots on them, and do as I told you." Her fingers prepared and in place, it took some maneuvering to get her ass off the ground, and above them, over the rock, but she was as lithe as a gymnast. Her butt well up, she lowered herself onto the slippery fingers; there was a yelp of surprise as she was unavoidably impaled under her own weight. Looking surprised, she moaned as the fingers disappeared almost up to the widest part of the knuckles; the cunt lips stretched out real nice.

She seems too compliant to me here, and to some extent, earlier as well. I see no real effort to fight him and get away, to scream and shout for help. If you're breaking away from the "ooh I've secretly always been waiting for a guy to drag me into the bushes and rape/sexually humiliate me" theme, I either want to see her trying to get away/get help/kick his ass, or I want some evidence of why she isn't doing those things. Her discomfort at having 2 fingers rammed up her ass isn't enough for me on this.

I do see that there's some complication going on with references to her step-dad, and I'm sure it's possible that she has some psychological association with coercion and getting off, but repeatedly I find myself actively suspending my disbelief.

I thought, This prim gash; it's gotta be opened, and there was an urge to splay her wide with my fingers, exposing everything that lay within. With such strange impulses boiling inside me, I moved toward the door.

This was, for me, the most chilling moment in the whole thing. Literally made me shiver.

So, to wrap up—fabulous, disturbing premise. Your prose is rich with poetry and vivid imagery. The narrator is a frightening, intriguing character—I think his sociopathic tendencies might be teased out a bit more, but he's in fine shape as is. The woman, IMO, needs finessing and developing.

My personal feeling—this is a story of substance and value—the kind of thing I'm very glad to see on Literotica, as it's outside the realm of the easy.

Varian

 

[Lying Eyes]

Yikes!!! Definately not my cup of tea! To be perfectly blunt I HATE this story. Sorry to say but I hate it so very very much!

This story is just too disturbing for my tastes. Way to violent and demeaning for me to get any eroticism out of it. Non consent stories are not "my thing" but this one is worse then others I have dared to read because it is more realistic then what is usually written on literotica.

But if a reader has a strong reaction to a story then that shows the writer has some talent because a truly badly written story gets no reaction at all. I have to admit this was a gutsy effort by the author. Not very many writers would risk writing something that many readers would find offensive. This is the type of story that could get "1" bombed or get nasty feedback from some readers.

It has its value, it does a good job of getting inside the rapists head. Though I got a little lost in the begining with the religous references of Job. I don't have much knowledge about the story of Job to make much sense of it. Also it seems out of character that he seems to remember or care about religous tales.

The part where she has to stop to fix her shoes seems too convenient for the story. Maybe I would of done something different such as the rapist sets up a trap to make her stumble.

She doesn't seem "stuck up" enough to fit the bill for the rapist of a woman needing to be humbled. Especialy when you have her concerned about his fake asthma. Maybe more thoughts going through his head convincing himself that she is just like Chelsea or other woman that controled him would help make the actions he is about to do more crediable.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. While I dislike the story it doesn't mean it isn't well written.


Now can someone please put up a nice romantic story up to be critiqued because I need something sweet to take out the dark images out of my head. No more non consent or humilation stories please!

 

[Pure]

Lying, your persistence is admirable. I'm sure your points, even given with hatred of the piece, will be useful to the author, as perceptions. That's because they are intelligent.

One small point:

L: She doesn't seem "stuck up" enough to fit the bill for the rapist of a woman needing to be humbled.

I think perhaps you might be missing what I would think was the intent of the author. Chelsea is not particularly nasty or demeaning, nor is the Black girl excessively proud. Indeed she tried to help a stranger.

If you've ever seen or read 'The Collector' you see the same thing.
The girl is *said* to be stuck up and 'la di da', but this is the killer's distortion and self justification.

With unbalanced minds, you have a situation, like, when you're in a bar, and glance at someone and they say "Why are you staring at me. You gotta problem?"

Similarly, while some psychopaths do have true tales of childhood woe, often their inner list of grievances and wrongs is quite weird and implausibly constructed.

 

[MLyons]

Hi, Tail.

I actually first read this story a while ago. (Mine is the second public comment).

I've read it again just now, and I still feel that it's damned fascinating.

I feel like there are a lot of layers to this story that I'm not yet completely grasping, and that's precisely what I love about it. It's extraordinarily clear to me that lot of very deliberate decisions, and hard work went into the story's development. I think it best to start with your questions and see if I have further thoughts that develop from there:

1.) The story attempts to break out of the 'nonconsent' bogus/fantasy scenario. (A number of stories, there, now do.) The "O my, I'm being raped, stop, stop, oooh, I'm coming, let me eat your spunk, my dearest savage man" plot. Was the effort worth it, or did any sexiness or erotism disappear?

This is a hard question to answer. Yes, it definitely does break from the norm, and I find that aspect of it very interesting. Unfortunately... cliche is most often cliche for a reason--it works, The thing about finding eroticism in places outside of that "bogus/fantasy" scenario as you describe it is that I expect, it's very individual. In my own darker stories (which are not published on Lit. for various reasons), and even in my Lit. work so far, I find that walking that fine line between arousal and disgust, or arousal and awkardness (depending on the level of depravity I've sunk to. ) is one of the most rewarding and difficult aspects of writing erotic stories.

On an initial read--without any insight into the what the author intended, I really don't feel very much sexiness in this piece. And by sexiness, I mean that I don't find much in here that arouses me, even as it attempts to appeal to my darkest side. However, I do find a strange kind of eroticism inherent within it, and by eroticsim I mean... a level of collective connection that lingers just under the surface of the story. It speaks to me on a deeper level that I can't put my finger on.

That all said, I'm really not sure that "sexiness" as I'm using the term here, is the point of the story.

The point of the story, and the intent of the narrator (as I understand him) is not necessarily to get off--not to use a piece of meat to satisfy his carnal urges. He's had that experience in some form or another. His intent is to demonstrate his power through a senseless act. There's no reason for it. There's no clear understanding of what purpose it could possibly serve either the narrator or his victim, it's just senseless, coldly directed power over that which is most animal about human beings. In that sense it HAS to be sexual power, but the control he exhibits is sort of anti-erotic in its eroticism, and that is precisely what's so beautifully compelling about this story.

All the pieces of this story are very carefully balanced. If this were to be a traditional, and coldly real rape, where the woman screams and claws and fights, prompting him to beat her with excessive violence to keep her under control, this would not be the story that it is.

If the narrator were not as coldly sophisticated. If he were not thoughtful, and deliberate about his sociopathic tendencies, it wouldn't be the story it is either.

Finally, and this is the most important aspect... the victim in this story is fascinatingly unique. No, she doesn't react like perhaps a real rape victim would react. There's something completely unique about her, and I get the sense that if the narrator hadn't found this particular woman, on this particular day, his exploration of senseless power would have ended with much different (and perhaps not as compelling) results.

My sense is that that story is not going for realism necessarily, in it's attempt to explore something different than the tired 'nonconsent' staples, it's attempting to explore a number of themes that these stories simply ignore in a coldly compelling, but still somehow erotic way.

The story attempts a psychological portrait of rapist as--to use a current term--a sort of Raskolnikov. Does it seem to have any plausibility?

Yes, I think it does. I think the narrator is freakin' fascinating. I think he's ... sort of a mad-thinker as it were. He's not stupid. Certainly not book-learned or anything, but he has a brain, perhaps in a street-smart kind of way, but gone terribly askewed with frightening interpretations and misconceptions of the world. It's chilling, and yet fascinating.

Does the 'psychological warfare' (systematic efforts to demean), as it were, against the woman seem to have any plausibility. How does the woman's character come across, if it does.?

This is the most difficult aspect of the story to wrap my head around, and that's what's so interesting about it. As I said before, I think if you tried to make this into a rapist fantasy (aka tried to find the eroticism in a man having complete control over his phsyically overpowered and mentally terrified victim) the story wouldn't be the same. The woman is fascinating, because she simply doesn't allow herself to be completely victimized. The story has that aire of a chess game about it, and although the narrator is physically in control, I get the sense that he's kind of met his match in terms of trying to fulfill his real intentions. While on one hand she doesn't act like a rape victim should act, and I have a hard time understanding what might actually be going through her mind, I still find in some strange way, the whole exchange to be ... plausible.

That said, however, I would have liked to understand her better--not by getting inside her head, but by truly seeing those tiny physical interactions that must go on that we DON'T get to see, in order for me to perhaps draw some conclusions as to why she might be acting the way she's acting. Why might she understand and have the presence of mind to know that it's better if she interacts with this man than if she shuts down? Why does she decides it's better for her to talk, and even to reason, than to scream? I think it could be there, but I really have a hard time seeing it.

She's coming across to me as ... not unbelievable, but more as an unsolvable mystery. The narrator is sort of sociopathic philosopher. She matches him in a way, but from a uniquely feminine viewpoint of amazing strength. She has an instinctive understanding of what he's after, and she refuses to give it to him. That's my impression of her anyway. She's a mystery, and I like that, but as others here have said, she borders on the outright unbelievable, and I think that's a matter of allowing us a tiny bit more access into her psyche, and the exchanges that signal to her what she's dealing with, and what she believes might be the best course of action to get out of this alive.

It is precisely this almost subconsious chess game between the two characters that gives the story it's unique erotic power.

I'm not sure I'm making ANY sense whatsoever... but this story is anything if not complex. My reactions are equally complex.

The story, I believe (and lord knows, I'm not the author...), is not necessarily to be looked on as a flat out sex story where the sole purpose is to force your hand in masturbation, or even make you feel good. It's much deeper than that, and I think it absolutely has it's place on a site like Literotica. There need to be more stories here that challenge us, in my opinion, and depending on what your purpose was when writing it, I think yours is a good one.

Please forgive any misinterpretations on my part. I could have all this TOTALLY wrong...

 

[Black Tulip]

Pffft Tail_teller,

First a compliment to you as the writer, I need to take a few deep breaths before I am able to write down my thoughts and comments. Whatever else, reading this has brought a lot of tension, meaning I got sucked into the events.

I have some general remarks to start with.

She read a lot of the book of Job to me—often interrupting with 'dayum ain't that a fuck-up'—where God allows Satan to torture the shit outta some sonovabitch who never did anything bad.

I find this very confusing. Could be my grasp (or lack of it) of English. But the whole first paragraph was not exactly smooth reading. I was wondering what Job had to do with it, but that got clarified on the way. LOL

The timetable on the girls was unclear to me.
I thought it was first Chelsea and then Merissa, but then you said Merissa opened your eyes and you mentioned Chelsea again after that.

A few typo's and such:

We an unfrequented section of the city park, my favorite spot.

Something's missing here.

I saw her start to shake her head, but she must've known what I say in her eyes, for she stopped.

Saw instead of say?

Chelsea started something that I'll finish right her.

Here instead of her?

What she could proud of: to be breathing.

'be' missing?

Let's see, I like to read non-consent stories but I usually back click when there is any real violence involved. Your story had me hovering between reading on or getting away. I'm not sure I would have finished it while reading for pleasure. Maybe, maybe not.
The same applies to the erotism of the story. Yes - no - yes - no.

This could all very well be because of my personal tastes re. violence.

Now about your questions:

The story attempts to break out of the 'nonconsent' bogus/fantasy scenario. (A number of stories, there, now do.) The "O my, I'm being raped, stop, stop, oooh, I'm coming, let me eat your spunk, my dearest savage man" plot.

Was the effort worth it, or did any sexiness or erotism disappear?

Like I said, to me it was not a continous arousing story. But to be honest, it wasn't a total turn off either.
This is confidential information.

The story attempts a psychological portrait of rapist as--to use a current term--a sort of Raskolnikov. Does it seem to have any plausibility?

In my opinion you did an excellent job of portraying a kind of 'twisting' thinking. Making what you hear fit with your own ideas. Like this example:
"Hey I only need one man, the others don't really matter."
We don't matter to you, that's honest at least!
I found that in more places and thought that was very effective in conveying a mind out of touch with reality.

Does the 'psychological warfare' (systematic efforts to demean), as it were, against the woman seem to have any plausibility. How does the woman's character come across, if it does.?

The man was very real and I find his reasoning very believable. About the woman, I don't know. She seems kind of flat to me. You have to keep out of her head, so you should work more with her expressions, her body movements.

Thinking out loud: the fact that she comes despite the circumstances is enough to steal her pride, but I think you need something more. She is not scared enough maybe? Not sure what, but I think there is something lacking in her reactions.

I hope my remarks are of some use to you. Please remember though, it's just the opinion of one reader.

I'm off to read the other comments now.



Edited to add: seems I'm not alone in my comments.
I agree with Varian about talking to a creep in the park.
Rule number one: no eye-contact and no talking when going across town at night.

After reading the others I want to add, that I think the victim could either be furious or frozen in fear. You portray reactions from both sides. She calls him names, which points to anger and that should lead to action.
She also does rather meekly what he tells her to do, so that I think she is scared witless. That would have her perhaps talking her head off, sort of like whistling in the dark. Trying to ward off the evil by talking. Or fall completely silent, which would be more fitting with the hinted history of incest.

Oh well, what do I know?

 

[Pure]

Hi Black,
I'm sure the author will be interested in your comments.

I haven't seen comments on her being too 'flat', since she got angry initially and at a later point of provocation, re her mother.
That is a point the author should consider.

And there is the niggling issue of why she stopped.

However,
BT:Rule number one: no eye-contact and no talking when going across town at night.

Odd, but my impression was that the park was fully lighted, probably late afternoon. Re reading a bit, I don't see any indicators of 'night.' But possibly (likely?) the author did not give enough clear signals as to day.

 

[Black Tulip]

Pure,

The same thing kept nagging me. I don't know why I thought it was dark.
That would make a difference though. If it was daylight, she could very well say something snappish. I do. LOL
Get lost, or piss off are my favorites.

About the character, flat is maybe the wrong word, but I feel her reactions are mixed:

A. She is angry, that should lead to some action. Possibly a countermeasure to subdue her.

B. She is frozen with fear, in which case I think she would be a lot less talkative. Certainly if there is a history of incest, or at least forbidden sex.

 

[GingerV]

Hey Tail,

I'm your worst nightmare. This is exactly the kind of story I react very badly to. BUT I know that's my problem. It doesn't mean it's a bad story. I've tried very very hard to reign in my personal opinions, and stick to "professional" (semi-amatuer? Bushleague?) ones. Still, please take everything I say with a grain of salt. Appologies are on tap if I've overstepped at any point.

Was the effort worth it, or did any sexiness or erotism disappear?

I pretty much had my answer to this one before I read it. Was the effort worth it? If it's a story you wanted to tell, yes. My opinion doesn't change that…the effort is always worth it. I think you're asking if the response to the story will pay you back for the effort…and that's not a question we can answer. We don't know how much response makes a story worthwhile to you, and we can only provide one voice among the many you may be looking for.

As far as maintaining sexiness…this story is deep in the kink. You know that. This is not going to be everyone's cup of tea, and as such…yeah for some people the sexiness and erotism is going to be harder to reach. It is a long way away from my personal kink; insofar as that's true…I'm a decent test case. For me, because I don't want it to be true, the barrier to a willing suspension of disbelief is higher. Every story has to be invited into the reader's head. You need to make it go a certain way, and we have to want to let you. This isn't something I'm going to want to let happen. I'm going to be writing my own ending from the outset, and I'm going to use every tiny flaw as a reason to distance myself from the action. In the end, if your intent was to turn on a reluctant reader despite themselves…to do, in effect, to me what he did to her…it didn't work. I don't, in the end, feel aroused or sexy. I don't even feel sick or repelled. In most ways I don't accept this as real, there were too many ways you let me escape from it. Little cracks in the plot that I could see the scaffolding through. It didn't compel my belief, and I wasn't going to give it up willingly. So. Is it universally sexy. No. Would those actions described have turned me on if I had been given anything but a body/soul rape to read them in? Yeah, they probably would have. So maybe you lost something. If losing me counts as losing something.

Better question, do you care? Cause I don’t think you should. I wouldn't have sought this out in a million years. Like I said, it's not my kink. What I write isn't to everyone's taste either. You wanted to push the envelope, when you do that, you're going to lose people. If this was universally sexy, I'd say you were doing it wrong (or else miraculously). Others will be better able to let you know if, in an audience that's more receptive, it was hot to them. I'm curious to see the answers to that, myself.

In an odd way, though, I think you lost something you may not have realized. I think that by writing this story in the "erotica" formula, you lost the psychological punch those characters could have packed. I think this would've been better AS a straight character study, one with sex in it…but not one that was about the sex. In the end, I think I finally understand what others have been trying to tell me about one of my works in progress….the sex got in the way. If you do go back to redevelop this, I'd try for unerotic (or just non-erotic) descriptions…let the boldness turn people on if its going to, focus on the psychological aspects, the intoxication of control…and less on the physicality or the "short leather skirts and satin shirts" of stock erotic writing.

The story attempts a psychological portrait of rapist as--to use a current term--a sort of Raskolnikov. Does it seem to have any plausibility?

I'm not sure here if you're asking if the story or the character has plausibility.

The character….I don't know. You're playing to feelings of impotence. He's failed with his ex, and was shamed for it. He's got a dead end job, from which he feels he's likely to be fired while they keep another one of his ex's. I know the character type you're trying for. Frustration, impotence (societal, generally, occasionally shown as literal as well to underline the point…although that's playing into a whole host of clichés on its own), and sublimated fear or insecurity lead to acting out rapes on individual women, or on society as a whole using firearms as a substitute phallus. I don't know if it's real. I know that it's a pathology that Hollywood likes to play to, that other writers have used. I recognize it from there. I'm sure it happens to one degree or another, but I think its very popularity makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy…frustrated men are taught this is how to interpret their pain.

In a piece this short, I think you need to lean on that stock characterization of the rapist. If you were thinking of reworking it at some future time, I'd maybe flesh it out more. I don't know how old the guy is. I get a middle aged feel from the language, but that might be my preconception of him. I don't know what his home is like, I don't know about the stacks of empty pizza boxes, the half dead plant on top of the TV growing irradiated, crinkled leaves, or the drawers full of interchangeable T-shirts and jeans. Alright, I admit it. I'm taking the mickey, just a little. I'm presuming I'm right about his pathology and digging up environmental cues to emphasize it. It's underlining, highlighting, and using up my weekly quota of exclamation points all at once. But the point remains that there are ways to establish the character using his environment that might help give yet more depth. Note, this is even MORE important if I've misdiagnosed him as another variant of M. Douglas in "Falling Down." Because then you need to do something to distinguish him from the crowd.

Is the plot plausible. I think we're back to me being the wrong person to ask. What struck me first…her initial dialogue, the pride that is so necessary for this to work. That seemed forced. "Yeah, I've got good legs…I keep 'em trim by dancing." That leaves me cold. She's immediately someone sent up from central casting. I don't buy it. A real "she" wouldn't say that. Not if she's been living in NY all her life. Hell, not if she'd been living in Peoria all her life. Not unless she was flirting, and you need her NOT to be flirting. I think here you're reaching too far. He doesn't need it to be a real demonstration of pride. She could be showing enough Pride to set this guy off in her choice of handbag. He's not a rational creature (or, if you're trying to sell him as rational, you're seriously off target), he doesn't need real justifications.

More than that, though…until he penetrated her, she didn't scream. He threatened her, grabbed her, dragged her, had her down, her thong off, he'd already threatened to stuff it down her throat…and that's the first place where she thinks to call for help? Not likely. I know that all women react to rape differently, and there is no right or wrong ascribed to how much or how little one fights…but I don't accept, in the setting you've given it, with the strength that you gave her (so you'd have something to break, I get that), that she would've gone as quietly (literally and figuratively) as you had her. She was an odd mix of strength and compliancy, and it didn't work.

And that compliancy was death to this piece. You scoff at non-consensual stories that really are, deep down, fully consenting. But this story is stuffed full of consent. I flag a lot of the instances that struck out at me as I read it…but I think something in you betrayed your tenant. It was important to the narrator that she "want" it. He kept demanding that she fake it…and you, the author, needed to make that wanting real at the end. On some weird, mysoginistic level, this purportedly pure non-consent piece had a consenting woman in it.

Does the 'psychological warfare' (systematic efforts to demean), as it were, against the woman seem to have any plausibility. How does the woman's character come across, if it does.?

She…dunno. She's a bundle of contradictions. She's strong at the outset, as I've said before. She's obviously a believer, I see that part of her shaken as she gets to the end. But I don't see him break her pride. There's no point when I see her crack. I see her bend, I see her conform, but I see no moment when she isn't working for her own survival. I barely witness her orgasm, it's more present in her reference to it at the end…but she's defiant about it. That never goes away. The Pride that should be central…that's never even touched.

The ending conversation…something rang wrong about it. It would be too simple to say that she's lying, although I get the certain feeling that she is. The woman he walks away from is going to be in an ER within the half hour, rape kid filed, working on a sketch. She wouldn't be sitting there talking to him rationally about how she's going to leave (or "why would I stay" is closer to how you put it). She'd be agreeing to everything, her mind on survival. OR, if she HAD been broken, she'd be agreeing to everything because she'd burned out any other gear…but she wouldn't be giving him back-chat there. That doesn't ring right. The stuff about her sister, that doesn't work for me either. It's a threat one might make, but not a calm conversation one might have…if you follow me.

Most perplexing of all…I never feel her fear. Anger, disgust, surprise…but not terror. And that ought to be up front. Even though we're seeing her through his eyes, we ought to sense the fear around the edges. It's not what he's focusing on, but it should be there. It should be so overwhelmingly present we can't avoid it entirely. The only thing I get through the whole piece is Pride. And I get it right up to the end.

I guess that's possibly the worst I can say of it…her Pride isn't touched in this. I don't know if that was intentional, I wonder if it was. If the author (and I'm kinda wondering if tail-teller is going to dust off its account to come in and chat with us in persona…I very much want to know how he responds) intended to let his (ah…there I notice it…I'm identifying this as a male author, probably because the narrator is male) rapist be so disconnected from reality that he misinterprets her actions. It's possible…but that last dialogue still doesn't work.

Her character, in a way, CAN'T come across. We're only going to see it in the reflections. Possibly in the dissonances. The rapist is going to paint the image of what he needs her to be over who she really is. What he has to say about her…that doesn't count for toffee, it tells us mostly about himself. We only see her in her actions, in her words. We'll see her best where her real character contrasts most strongly with what "he" needs/believes her to be. And one of my problems with this story is that she doesn't contrast enough. She feels forced, and I think that's mostly true at the times when the author is bending her to FIT the rapist's fantasies. I don't think that bending is necessary, I think the character will do that on his own. She should be her own person, the rapist should be allowed to be wrong about her. As it is, she seems too much of a bundle of contradictions to be real. She IS the girl he wants her to be, and that girl can't exist outside his psychosis, so she's not believable in MY reality.

On with the story.

Does God just make senseless things happen, for some weird reasons we'd never understand?

I like the way you start this. It establishes the voice of the narrator (smart, but not polished…probably undereducated…a little scattered, wordy, disorganized…frustrated and angry), while introducing the big theme of religion, and blame. Because this is first person, and the voice is strong and well developed I'm not going to make style points…you're going for consistency, even if it's consistently awkward (which it isn't, btw).

As far as the religious theme goes…I think it definitely works. It's well fitted to the character, and it builds neatly through the piece (I love the end, btw…but I don't want to get ahead of myself). It felt slightly lopsided…you emphasized the contradictions inherent in Job, but you didn't touch on the identification between the narrator and Job nearly as heavily. Which is odd, cause I think the balance would be interesting. Still, it does work as an understatement. Curious to see what others think about that one.

Merissa got me thinking. The Goth girl, barely legal and working in the same office, had been attracted to me, at first. After three or four visits to my apartment, sucking every last drop outta my cock, she decided we should be friends.

I wanted to ask about her. Where the hell did she go? She's there to introduce him to the book of Job (and the image of her reading it to him was wonderfully surreal, btw), and to establish that he's generally mysogenistic…it's not just Chelsea he's pissed off at. But after this paragraph, and another reference to her as being the one they're likely to keep at the office, she goes poof. Possibly it's meant to show that women are interchangeable or unimportant. I'm not sure that's a point that needs underlining in this sort of story. It _feels_ like she's been forgotten about.

What it was, I figured out because Merissa had turned me onto Edgar Allan Poe, the miserable sonovabitch who'd died in the gutter, she said.

I get it…he doesn't WANT to be Job, he doesn't admire the victims. EAP is who he'd WANT to be. I think the contrast between the two should've been made more of. At it stands, I was wondering just about now who else was going to turn up in the growing shelf of literary references. You do touch on it…but half a paragraph away, and not as clearly as I was hoping for.

multiple lip and navel piercings in fine silver.

Not sure why this got the loving attention it did. Struck me as out of place.

The senseless had happened to me long enough, thanks—Chelsea's perverse cruelty.

This seemed weird. As if admitting her power to hurt him was somehow an admission of respect. It didn't fit with later descriptions of her…but maybe that's after he's got his "power" back. Dunno.

First I thought to try something on Chelsea 'caus'a those cocky statements, "I give the best blowjob on the east side!" Bullshit whore's pride. Not worth the effort.

See, this is what I mean. Suddenly the respect is gone. Is it an act, and I'm missing the point?

At the clack of her platforms I turned and saw brown leather shoes with those leather ties that she'd criss-crossed halfway up her calves.

I've been working on this one….cause it's been bugging me. I like this part. It's part of the story. He spotted her because he heard her, his attention was drawn to the part her heard. All good.

Her off-white blouse was tasteful, loose in the breeze. The woman wasn't advertising; nor was she avoiding attention: The fabric was sheer enough to show the young, full, breasts without support.

In matching leather, her tight dark brown miniskirt barely covered those hard buns.

And I like the rest of it less. I know WHAT it is. It's the clothes obsession. It's the need to set the scene for the "what are you wearing" crowd. It's not as big a giveaway as bra sizes and dick length, but this was where the amateur shone through for me. And I'm not completely sure I understand why I'm having that reaction.

She gave me a look like, stranger, what kind of crack have you crawled outa. "Please go away." Her walk had hardly slowed.

Is she saying that…or is that his interpretation of her walk? I'm only confused because starting with a "please go away" here gives the rest of the dialogue a "start stop start stop" feel. Fuck off. Polite chat. Fuck off. It might work better if she just hadn't noticed him as she walked past the first time.

"I can't walk very far in this pollution."

I hadn't planned to, but I began to cough, a tight choking asthmatic cough that doubled me over. "Can't breathe." I barely got out the words and almost fell onto the concrete bench by the walkway.

Seemed forced.

"You're kind and you deserve a lot from life. You got family and friends; and you look good, healthy."

"Thanks. I'm trim 'cause of my dancing. Look, if you're OK, I should go. Thirty minute brisk walk, you know." She's taking off, I thought.

I know I mentioned it above, but every time I see it I twitch. 'taint natural. Also, now that I look at it again, I'm not sure how clear it is what you mean by a thirty minute walk.

"Yeah men notice me; big deal. I'm just as God made me. But they say I got my momma's legs."

See above re: cringey dialogue. You're trying to justify his sensing pride from her, and you don't need to. You're doing it in such a way as to make me pull away from the story. Maybe it'd work better to project it onto her? Make this a sort of imagined dialogue? Dunno, random thoughts.

My eyes slid lightly over the curve of her breasts, the notch of her waist, the tautness of her covered ass, coming to rest on the sleek bound calves.

Well done. You're not off the hook for the dialogue that follows…but I give you back a couple dozen points for this .

I was smiling; there was just an edge in my voice I don't think she picked up.

Maybe it's voice, in which case leave it be, but I was reading this and wondering "an edge of WHAT?" Either "there was an edge" or just an edge of something…for some reason the halfway solution doesn't work.

"Hey I only need one man, the others don't really matter."

Comma after Hey.

We don't matter to you, that's honest at least!

I like the play on what she'd just said. I just hate that she'd just said it. Again, this isn't casual guy in the park conversation. It's flirting of a sort, but of a very specific, ethnically stereotyped sort. It doesn't ring true to me. As much as I hate to lose that lovely transition…maybe there's another way to lead into it?

Chelsea bitch's voice was in my head again: what she yelled at my departure: "I don't need you."

I do like how we get that evening in bits and flashes. That's really well done. And it's psychologically truthful, it screams "repression."

"Must go. Gotta go."

Don't know about the repetition here, not sure what it's for or that it's accomplishing it.

At this time to act, I was filled with dread, as if I'd be taken over by something indescribable.

Again, I don't want to mess with his voice…which is individual and consistent. But I think you may not have meant to start it this way. "At this time to act" is damned awkward. Could you set "Time to act." apart from the rest as its own sentence? I'm not overfond of the rest, but the beginning is just jarring.

In my head, the shit words came again, jeering 'what's the matter with you?'

Again implies they've come before. Fine, but it struck me that if they'd come before it wasn't within the bounds of the story.

As we reached a spot I'd scouted, a clearing with a leafy floor and tufts of grass, she got her strength back.

This seemed over convoluted for the narrator, to "writerish". Maybe "As we reached the clearing with a leafy floor and tufts of grass I'd scouted before (earlier?) she got her strength back."?

Hate and fire came up quick in her eyes as she hissed, "Fuck off asshole. Let go!" which says she got a real attitude there, so I tightened my grip, bending her head back, and she fell backwards—me half supporting her, at the head—onto the spongy ground, but not all the way down, sorta half lying.

All one sentence. It starts narrating her response, then her statements, then his actions. Seems easy to break it after her demand.

As the pain darkened her face, my spirits lit up.

Don't need that comma, I think.

"Ouch, you jerk, stop!" She did just what I'd seen before, reaching toward my hand with both of hers. Perfect!

Seen before? Not sure why that should be so significant to him. Is it just another reference back to Chelsea. If so, if similarity to Chelsea is so important, I'm surprised he chose someone so physically different.

Letting go the nipple, I thrust my right hand up under the miniskirt and the little thong the bitch was sporting, to grab at her jungly pubes because I wanted to feel her cunt.

What's she's doing at this point? The implication is that she's just lying there, letting him reach around her. It's disconcerting. If you're implying that he just wouldn't want to describe her resisting…well, I'm not sure that comes across.

and by God she was gooey inside.

That's an incredibly offputting description. If that was your intent, it worked wonders.

The nipples were reacting,

Is the implication here that she's being turned on on some level? If so does that not take away from your intent to write a truly non-consent story?

In my teeth, I seized the left nipple, her surprised scream making the music for my little opera.

That reads almost like it was translated directly from German. Too inverted. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not your narrator.

And my python had become so desperately crunched.

I'd take "so" out. It sounds too pleading with it.

She didn't understand that I meant, her mind.

Again, comma out of place.

She didn't hesitate long with all that going on in her ass. "Stop, I'll do it. Stop it, please... Lord, I need help." keeping a controlled tone, like she was trying to make her way through the problem, me being the goddamn problem the Almighty would help her to solve.

I'm a little confused about the choreography here….where everyone's positioned, how everything gets reached, how it keeps him in a position to control her. At a couple of points, I would've kicked him in the nuts, or cracked him over the head with a rock. He's got no control over her arms at all, and little over her legs.

"Lord I need help" doesn't seem consistent with a "controlled tone."

I do like the last part of it. You're strongest when you're dealing the religion, weakest when you're talking about/for her. Weird, when I read the beginning, I thought it'd be the other way around.

Halloween.

I got it, but it took effort. Broke the flow.

with me roughing up her clit with my thumb, there was no choice but to swallow,

That seems a bit of a nonsequitor.

"Do you got a sister?" she asked.

I ask again, how's he controlling her? He's relaxed, sat back, I assume that he's released what little hold he had on her. I get her wanting to talk her way out of this…and it's the sort of thing that Hollywood tells us women in this position try to do…but he hasn't got a gun. Why is she talking her way out right now? It doesn't make sense. She's certainly still got her Pride.

The dialogue is flat and emotionless. She ought to be holding it back, at the very least, but I'm given no hints as to how she sounds…so I can't trace it back to how she feels. Even if you don't revamp the extremely practical conversation, I'd give hitches or sighs or something to describe the delivery. It would keep uncooperative readers like me from making it sound like a Philosophical discussion in our heads.

She was surprised, then scared, "Please..." She looked at my cock, which was drooping and had cum half dry on it.

This implies she wasn't scared earlier…which isn't what you want.

She licked it up like a hungry dog who's found an ice cream cone

The way he describes her actions implies, subtly, enjoyment. It's all imagery of enthusiasm. It's a weird choice to me, I don't understand why either the narrator or the author (who's stated he wants a truly non-consentual story) would choose it. Here, or when she's cleaning his spunk off the ground. Other little things too.

like her twat's suckin' my thumb, still in there to the hilt.

Awkward physiology. When he sat back on the rock he STILL had his hand in her? Not obvious. Also, not clear HOW.

I removed my fingers, and sure enough, when two of her digits disappeared in there, he jerked up to full attention.

I approve of trying to vary word choice, but "digits" doesn't sound like your guy. Too, I dunno, whimsical? Errudite? Somewhere in there.

Whack, looked like it hurt.

It's a personal preference, but I'd keep the onomatopoeia separate from the evaluation of it.

"Dip into my honey jar, my lil' garden."

A lot of the dirty talk she uses just sounds, I dunno, weird. She should be awkward at it, from the situation if not from previous inexperience. I'm ok with that. And "honey jar" is almost believable…but "lil' garden?" It's cutesy.

As I go through this again, I think my previous comment bears repeating. You don't give her voice any tone. Maybe that's why this is so awkward. There's no sense that she's reaching for words, that her voice is quavering, nothing. So I can put in what I want…and what I want is for her to be cold and cool. It is, actually, the last description I remember you giving us her voice, so I feel validated there. It lets me make this so weird it's unbelievable, and I'm out of your story again.

"Miss Manners, so prim. It is your gash, your cunt, your leaking twat, slimy poon." Repeat. She was ready to erupt, but couldn't seem to find the right words.

Repeat is used oddly here. Is he saying he repeated it? He didn't tell her to repeat it. You're finally describing her responses…but the description doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And again, it seems to carry the subtle message of complicity, really it's consensual…..WAY deep down she WANTS to cooperate, she's about to explode, she just doesn’t know how. That's a perfectly common mysogenistic fantasy, but it's not the one you're trying for here.

She defers to me.

When she did, her eyes closed and her face took on a rapt expression. I can control her pleasure, too.

Again, subtle implication of consent.

but she must've known what I say in her eyes, for she stopped.

Saw, not say.

The python was pricking up his ears,

Mixed metaphor…in a couple of different dimensions.

"Time for three, honey, all the way. Leave the rubbing." She fumbled and looked mighty uncomfortable; the third finger had only entered past the first knuckle.

OK, maybe it's just me…but all this fuss over three fingers seems out of place. It just isn't all that much…most dildos are as wide or wider than three grouped fingers. They're a hell of a lot smaller than some of the other things that pass through that canal without tearing it. It was another reason for me to disbelieve the story (and, incidently, to presume a man wrote it).

An order to save her pride.

Nice phrase. I don't feel her pride is threatened yet…but a nice phrase all the same.

Hurriedly I bundled my coat into a pad and put it on top the rock.

Weird moment of consideration. And what's she doing while he's got his hands busy and his back turned? She's running for the damned road, right? Why the hell not?

The rock and the upward pointing fingers would be a kind of obscene phallic altar.

Nice nod to the religious theme.

"Lie back and support yourself with your left hand, arch your back and lift up that ass. Then lower your cunt onto your fingers, keeping them stiff. Sit on 'em."

This all seems a little mechanical and bloodless. All of a sudden the rapist is Scorsese directing his first porn flick. While the phrase is usually directed at the writer, part of me wants to tell the narrator "more doing, less telling."

I produced a jar of Vaseline from my pocket, opened it.

Another moment of bizarre consideration. He's been walking around the city, looking for a girl to brutally rape, but he brings a jar of vasaline with him? You've just tried to tell me that the fisting scenario was a flash of insight/desire…for which he happens to come prepared? What the hell has he got a jar of Vaseline for? I'm thinking Scorsese is doing a product placement ad at this point, and the menace and terror are completely gone.

it took some maneuvering to get her ass off the ground, and above them, over the rock,

During which she clocks him one. OK, OK, I'll stop….bury the horse at your leisure.

So pumped, she probably didn't feel any pain.

Is this a pro or a con for this psycho? I'm reading it as an apology to the reader…they can take pleasure in it, because really she wasn't hurting. Not really. It's a retreat from the stated purpose of the piece…you're chickening out here.

then appeared to get into the experience,

Way deep down it's consensual again. She's not clocking him, or running off, or fighting at all, because she "wants" it.

Chelsea started something that I'll finish right her.

Not sure it was necessary to bring C up again, right here.

Plain—no, triumphant—lust jumped up in cock, belly and brain.

The beginning isn't easily comprehensible. Took me several reads to parse it right.

She hesitated, then said quietly, "I'm doing what you want. I just don't understand."

Even I'm not sure what she's talking about here…what's to understand? She's doing what he wants…full stop. Nothing incomprehensible seems to be happening. If he was suddenly all conscientious and considerate, THAT would be something she might not understand. How're his actions surprising here?

"And that's not gonna happen." She completed my sentence perfectly.

I actually read that with a double meaning, don’t know if you meant it to be possible. That's not gonna happen….1) he's not gonna let her leave with her pride, 2) (defiantly) she's not gonna want it.

Her eyes locked onto mine, melting. "You make me want to crawl under the dirt. Like my step-dad. Oh Lord."

The child abuse/incest theme is coming in late. Seriously late. It's not foreshadowed. It's not pushing the story forward, it doesn't serve as a twist. It reads more like an afterthought. I'm also not sure her behaviour/pride is consistent with an incest/abuse survivor. I'm not sure why you put it in, and I'm not sure that it gains you anything, here or later.

"So you've taken me down and you're gonna fuck me." Self-respect seemed to be slipping away.

HOW did it seem to be slipping? This is the biggest problem you've got. You're telling me he's winning, but you're not showing me. How does he know…if I don't see it, I'm not going to believe it.

Fierce and slutty words full of her anger,

Anger implies her pride is intact. And it's getting a little late in the story for her to still be this defiant.

She knew it and composed herself, heedless of the dark.

What dark? I thought it was day. Is this a metaphorical dark I'm missing?

yet cold, shameless.

while she stayed like ice.

All signs to me that he's not touched her Pride. So long as he doesn't, I'm not involved.

For dinner Chelsea had dressed in her best. Stylish light blouse and fine dark leather miniskirt.

I'm not sure about this. I was liking the flashes and moments. But I thought in the end that it read well. Still, that stand alone "what are you wearing" sentence….it's amateur hour again.

She had a damn road map for everything! I felt myself go limp in her drooling mouth, and nipped her clit.

That’s a key moment….but I'm not 100% sure what happened. It's her control, I think. The fact that everything he did was previously scripted by her. But I feel like I'm guessing…a tiny bit more development here might be useful, but that could just be me.

"Nothin' for me, here, babe," and I moved again to leave.

No comma between me and here.

"We're goin' for it, cunt." I was yelling, "

At which point two dog walkers and a passing cop run in to see what all the noise is about….damn, sorry, my appologies to the horse.

Don't dare fuckin' stop!"

All through here it's nothing but implied consent. Non-consensual consent, but consent is necessary for this guy. Ironic, really.

All that's happened is so clear, now I'm director.

the director.

ravening belly.

Ravening = hunger = consent.

"I had you and left you alive! Now I get spit, who was doin' you the favor of..."

Nothing precisely wrong with it…but I think voice and flow would be better if you threw a "me" in before "who was doin"

In our area of the park, crying would bring help quicker than screams.

Ok…..

"A fairy tale." She looked startled. "It was something else."

You lost me here.

"A wild guess... it was probably your half brother; someone like that.

And now psycho-loser is the Amazing Kreskin. I've already given my 10cents on how I don't feel the sudden addition of the incest works. Now I've gotta say I don't buy this amazingly self-involved guy as the least bit insightful about his victim. He's all about himself. It'd take a lot of sensitivity and a good dose of luck to get THIS right. It's not believable.

"It happened." She'd cleared the last hurdle.

No she didn't. "It happened" doesn't imply responsibility. If you want her broken, she's got to believe that she deserved it. Here, it's a passive response. "It happened" gives her wiggle room. She didn't do it, it just happened. She's walking away wounded, but whole from my reading. He just lost. And that's part of why the next conversation just seems bizarrely off to me. But I touched on that at the beginning, so I'm gonna leave it alone here.

"But all this has happened."

"It happens."

I think you're trying to echo her previous admission. It'd be a nice reflection if it worked, but it doesn't. Not sure why it doesn't.

Overall…the writing was good. It's a hard voice to keep…and you did that well. Technically, there were typos but no systematic errors. I may be totally off base about where you want it to go, in which case blow me off. Hope some small fraction of what I was whittering on about helped in some way…and I'm around to translate "Gingerese" into English if you need it .

G

 

[GingerV]

OK, just read the other responses.

Can I just start by swearing blind that I didn't crib Varian's critque! It's totally a case of great minds thinking alike .

As I pointed out in my review, chalk me up for a vote for "flat" characterizations. Except for the rare flashes of temper that Pure notes, there isn't any light or shade attributed to the woman's tone at all.

Also, I got a daytime impression (with one exception for that odd "dark" reference in the middle).

I'm going to think more about Mlyon's assertion that demands for "realism" are inappropriate here. I'm having trouble getting past the point that while realism isn't the burden of the writer, believability is. Even in fantasy or Science Fiction novels...there has to be an adherence to the rules onces established. I admit, I was going to be a hard sell, but so long as I'm obsessed with the unreality (non just non-reality...it was the opposite of real at some points) I'm not ready to deal with the finer points.

It seems unfortunate when all you had to do was trade the silly jar of Vaseline for a hand-gun...and bingo, instant control. Then I understand why she's not struggling/yelling/running.

"The Collector" was strongly in my mind when I read this. The difference that I saw was that Fowles set the stage in such a way that I couldn't resist his story. It was internally consistent, there were reasons why she was trapped (both physically and within her character). Here...neither the physical setting nor her character seemed consistent with her actions. Yes, the actions define her character...but if I let that be true it flies in the face of the one objective thing I know to be true of this story.

I also resist a bit at the suggestion that it's the readers' fault if a story doesn't work for them...that some are "reading it wrong." Not all interpretations are or should be equal, I'm not THAT postmodern. But I do feel that a compelling story is a self-consistant story. And if the story lacks the cohesion necessary to lead people to the right interpretation, it's the writer's fault. They can't follow along behind their stories (as I hope will happen here) to explain what they really meant. My interpretations may WELL be totally off base, but the gaps that I fell through when I made them....those are down to the author.

But that's all off the top of my head. Like I said, I want to think about it for a while.

G

 

[tail_teller]

Thanks

I want to thank all who gave this amateur piece on a depraved topic, their time. There is much to study. I have thanked some of you privately, and discussed issues raised, in some cases.

Varian, that was a very conscientious job, where sympathy with some of the author's objectives made it especially helpful. Some of the plausibility issues, problematic scene transitions were fully laid out for me to digest. (And hammered home by others.)

The complaint of 'too compliant' or 'too little angry' did surprise me, but it must be listened to as a reader's perception. My thinking is that folks surprised who find themselves possible in a life imperilling situation (central park jogger?) get rather compliant and 'flat', if they don't disintegrate or go hysterical.
I thought it rather exceptional (non flat) that she'd launch a phsycal (counter) assault in the middle.

Lying, thanks for having a look. I hope you noticed the overabundance of warnings. Of course as a critic you may have felt obliged to proceed. I appreciate your sang froid.
MLyons, you certain grasped the philosophy of the story, and your criticisms will be well studied.

BlackT. Again plausibility of her reactions. Good points. You tuned into the twisted thinking well. I did envision afternoon; there are no contraindications to daytime, and some indications, at the end, where she's clearly visible at some yards away. But again, the reader is always right. A sunshine word or two extra would work wonders. I'm glad you found it technically passable, but yes, my nightmare, a couple words got dropped or mangled.

Ginger V. Well, there's your legendary thoroughness. I feel a bit like Carthage after the Romans. Not only are the walls pulled down and the trees burned, but salt is sown (even many commas are said to be wrong).

You make a number of good points about plausibility, but the sense of hostility makes them hard to absorb. There is no apparent sympathy for authorial objectives or belief that any were accomplished.

I did enjoy the uncontrived honesty of
I've tried very very hard to reign in my personal opinions


I'm not sure where you think I said, in a general way, that problem were the reader's fault. Even missteps usually have a reason. With allowances for h.s. jerks, the customer is always right.

The following is a fine comment, since writers around here think sex details 'make' the story; just pile 'em high enough:

In the end, I think I finally understand what others have been trying to tell me about one of my works in progress….the sex got in the way. If you do go back to redevelop this, I'd try for unerotic (or just non-erotic) descriptions…let the boldness turn people on if its going to, focus on the psychological aspects, the intoxication of control…and less on the physicality or the "short leather skirts and satin shirts" of stock erotic writing.

This appeal for 'stock', I don't follow, since I'm sure you'd have crucified any talk of those pizza boxes you mention:

In a piece this short, I think you need to lean on that stock characterization of the rapist. If you were thinking of reworking it at some future time, I'd maybe flesh it out more. I don't know how old the guy is. I get a middle aged feel from the language, but that might be my preconception of him. I don't know what his home is like, I don't know about the stacks of empty pizza boxes, the half dead plant on top of the TV growing irradiated, crinkled leaves, or the drawers full of interchangeable T-shirts and jeans.

-----

I may be wrong, but I don't have the feeling you understand his particular derangement, though you are familiar with the Collector.

While I understand the problems of her reactions, I believe you overstated the case, though it's your perception. You see signs of 'compliancy':

And that compliancy was death to this piece. You scoff at non-consensual stories that really are, deep down, fully consenting. But this story is stuffed full of consent. I flag a lot of the instances that struck out at me as I read it…but I think something in you betrayed your tenant. It was important to the narrator that she "want" it. He kept demanding that she fake it…and you, the author, needed to make that wanting real at the end. On some weird, mysoginistic level, this purportedly pure non-consent piece had a consenting woman in it.

I don't think 'betrayed my tenant.' I'm no landlord. I'm not sure how you descried my tenet (that rape victims want it) or the 'weird misoginistic [sic] level.' Since the entire narrative is first person, I don't see any way to access anything beyond, as you say, the *narrator* has to believe she wants it. I'm not sure how I the author 'needed to make that wanting real at the end.'

Here is one piece of your evidence of consent:
Proud "The nipples were reacting, "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ginger: Is the implication here that she's being turned on on some level? If so does that not take away from your intent to write a truly non-consent story?"

Don't your nipples pop up on cold days, with rough handling, etc. It's well documented that the raped person's body frequently reacts (just as with abused kids); including sometimes, lubrication.

Second piece of evidence:

Proud story: "She licked it up like a hungry dog who's found an ice cream cone "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The way he describes her actions implies, subtly, enjoyment. It's all imagery of enthusiasm. It's a weird choice to me, I don't understand why either the narrator or the author (who's stated he wants a truly non-consentual[sic] story) would choose it.

The narrator finds the *commanded* act (possibly with a death threat there) to be *enthusiastic.* It's obvious why the narrator wants to think that--probably thinks he gave he a helluva treat--, but how do you infer that the author is saying/implying: In truth she was enthusiastic, as if consenting, after all women like licking strange spunk off the grass, if it's from a 'take charge' kinda guy.

Regarding all the above issues of access, I see you yourself make the very point I'm making, but you don't run with it:

Her character, in a way, CAN'T come across. We're only going to see it in the reflections. Possibly in the dissonances. The rapist is going to paint the image of what he needs her to be over who she really is. What he has to say about her…that doesn't count for toffee, it tells us mostly about himself.

Again, on the issue of acces, you say,
But I don't see him break her pride. There's no point when I see her crack. I see her bend, I see her conform, but I see no moment when she isn't working for her own survival. I barely witness her orgasm, it's more present in her reference to it at the end…but she's defiant about it. That never goes away. The Pride that should be central…that's never even touched.

I don't see where that comes from, where do you get privileged access. The narrator believes he cracked (what he took to be) her pride. There's some evidence--from the narrator--to the contrary (I put it there). I have no idea what the last sentence means: Does it mean she clearly has a lot of pride, and the story didn't bring it out? Does it mean this hypothetical pride, in your view wasn't touched by the attacker. Don't you see that the 'pride' thing is HIS? We have no evidence that her 'pride' is anything special or prominent (just as there is not evidence that Chelsea was 'cruel'--another belief of his.).

If I'm with someone sexually and I'm pathologically full of myself, when I hear a moan, I will record it in my diary as "She moaned like a bitch in heat, like she had to more." Now if the author has the narrator say or think that, "Raskol wrote what had happened, 'She was moaning like a bitch in heat.' " I don't see how you can draw any inference.

Enough.

A couple minor oddities:
I get it…he doesn't WANT to be Job, he doesn't admire the victims. EAP is who he'd WANT to be.

Poe he calls a 'miserable sonovabitch who died in the gutter." Does that sound like an idol? The *character* in Poe's "the Black Cat" is who he's *finding* himself to be. (Hence his sick feelings are certain points, exiting Chelsea, and just before he attacks.)

I'm not sure why you find the threat against the kid sister implausible. I think that sort of thing is common, since it paralyzes the victim and *tends* (understatement) to keep her out of ER.

---Without making this too long,

Many of your points about plausibility are well taken;

Your dialogue critique is deadly, and probably useful.

You took a lot of time, and gave much of substance.

It's in a way, pointless to debate you, because you're a pretty damned informed and imposing reader; anything I fault in your understanding may easily be thrown in my lap.

I believe you were a little blinded on certain issues, but your 'natural' expertise came through loud and clear. And I'm grateful.
=====

To all the hard working ones, regardless of sympathies, and 'cup of tea' issues. Thanks again. It's been an experience.

 

[GingerV]

Hmmm....Carthage huh? In that case, I totally deserved the retaliatory elephants .

Without denying responsibility for the damage, there is one potentially hurt feeling out of place.

I'm not sure where you think I said, in a general way, that problem were the reader's fault. Even missteps usually have a reason. With allowances for h.s. jerks, the customer is always right.

I didn't mean you. Not at all. I was rambling on about MLyon's impressions that if we were obsessed with believability we were missing the point. Am I out of line there? Is this an "all comments should be addressed to the author, no infighting about other's opinions" kind of deal?

There were parts of the story I really did like...I'm sorry I failed to bring that more clearly to the fore.

You're completely right, there are many places in my review where I was unintentionally demonstrating how thoroughly I missed the point. The irony of the entire thing is that I seem to have been demanding you do exactly what you'd damned well thought you'd done.

So what are we left with? You're obviously a good writer with complex issues you want to address, and I'm not a complete idiot of a reader. I don't think it's as simple as "what did Fowles do right? So do that!". I definately missed the first jump, and I still think it may well be because you left it too high. The thing that keeps coming back to my mind is that I felt a lack of dissonance. Her actions were too close to his expectations. I take your point that it would look like that if he were polishing the story, making real events more into his fantasy...trimming off the edges. But somehow, I (at least) need more of a cue that that's what he's doing.

It's past tense...that's a cue, sure. But it seemed, hell...don't know the right phrase...I'm gonna call it "immediate past." Like a football play-by-play. That he seemed surprised at times justified me while I was reading. If it was clear that more time had passed, that I wasn't getting a moment by moment description, I may have assumed it was more edited? It's a thought off the top of my head, which may make it no more use than the pizza boxes. But there you go, you gets what you pays for.

I definately know the other problem...this is the last time I read the preamble/questions before the story. I went through that entire thing outright obsessed with the idea that the "point" was to see if a true non-consent story could be made sexy. That was the standard I was holding everything to...after all, that was what the author told me he wanted. And how blessed am I, finally, to read things KNOWING what the author's point was up front. Makes it easy, doesn't it. Does it, bollocks. Whole new fresh way to put on blinkers, I'm annoyed with myself for that. Honestly, I don't think you'd have gotten through to me even if I had dipped into the story without the preview. I'd have still missed the bigger points. But I'd've been less annoyed that the "girls really want to be raped" theme was appearing, less convinced that I should see evidence of the lack of consent, and less insistent on a lack of evidence of consent.

Pax?

G

 

[Black Tulip]

Ginger,

Don't know about the others, but I for one do not mind a bit of interaction between those giving critiques. After all, it's a learning place for all of us, isn't it?

And we can all find the place for an easy pat on the shoulder.
The Feedback Forum

 

[Pure]

From your 'traffic director'. There HAS to be traffic.

Of course commenters may and can address each other. That's especially helpful to the author. In this case, for instance, a couple readers at least presumed daytime, as the author intended, but didn't make entirely clear. So he can infer partial success, but knows the problem.

The author benefits in sifting reasons. In this case, one commenter liked a sentence about it being like an 'opera', Ginger found it Germanic and unimpressive.

Ginger has clarified that she was rambling about M Lyons, and she has every right to ramble. From Tail's side, the fact that M Lyons was mentioned a couple paragraphs earlier, only, would have led to a mistake, especially since the immediately preceding paragraph was a comparison of Tail's efforts with Fowles'.

Authors' feeling and egos are always present. What I'm going to say applies strongly to me: The demonstration of critical acumen has to be tempered, in expression, at least, with a principle of charity. If I have 10 points to take an author to task for, charity obliges me to give a few 'credits' as well.

Of course that must be a function of the author's level. It's especially important to give new writers 'credit', and not set the bar too high. In the case of Tail, an experienced writer, no kid gloves are necessary, but the forum is enhanced when all of us, me included, sometimes temper critiques, or at least carefully word the expression of critique so it has less chance of being taken personally.

That said, we're all adults. Everyone knows what happens. Everyone knows the reviewers will not coddle anyone, and are in some cases excellent writers, even published. They are also not moral monsters. So in most cases an author's hurt feelings, if any, are just something to move on from, in an adult fashion.

pure

 

[tail_teller]

Note to Ginger.

Of course, pax.

I now see one problem of communication, and as I stated above, it can only fall back in my lap. It has to do with the author's intention.

That's pretty clearly given in the introductory 'cautions'.

Ginger said,

I definitely know the other problem...this is the last time I read the preamble/questions before the story. I went through that entire thing outright obsessed with the idea that the "point" was to see if a true non-consent story could be made sexy. That was the standard I was holding everything to...after all, that was what the author told me he wanted. And how blessed am I, finally, to read things KNOWING what the author's point was up front.

I agree about the author's questions thing. I generally don't read them until late in the game, the critique process. They advert to the author's intentions, and I'm of the school that any piece MUST stand on its own. There can't be an author 'whispering from the wings' or writing newspapers articles explaining that when Tilly said, "Fuck off," she didn't really mean it, and still loved Billy.


Ginger's response was a result, in part, of reading the question I posted, asking if anything of sexiness or erotism remained. This was not well worded, though 'erotism' *was included.

Initially I did have the goal of seeing if something sexy could occur in a 'realistic' rape scene. But as Ginger said elsewhere, one gets into 'storytelling', a rare art around here, mastered only by the likes of Rumple and Colleen. This has got to shift focus from sex.

So in the end, I did NOT expect the average fellow or woman would periodically come upon (or along with) a good wank passage. That would be a bit odd. If anyone has read the book "Lucky" (not to say, The Collector), there isn't much of 'wank' left. (Check that, Ginger.)

But, I did intend a kind of twisted erotism, and Black picked up on it semi positively, and Lying and Ginger picked it up from afar--a straight sexuality, 'normal' etc., would not touch [or respond to] this with a ten foot pole. IOW, there was intended to be a bit of the same source of appeal that draws some people into 'erotic horror' or formerly into 'extreme.' The perverse response that shames part of us, to genuine violence in a sexual context.

So my question was quite ambiguous, and Ginger's reading was entirely understandable, given that I failed to explain a bit more.

 

[MLyons]

Hello again all,

I have to say that I really don't quite feel qualified to be a part of this discussion.

I'm not a refined reader... and I'm definitely not a particularly skilled writer. I just go with my instincts when I give critiques... and discussion on a higher level of what fiction or storytelling should and should not do are a bit outside the scope of my education, I'm afraid.

However, I do want to respond to a couple of things.

Ginger V said:

I'm going to think more about Mlyon's assertion that demands for "realism" are inappropriate here. I'm having trouble getting past the point that while realism isn't the burden of the writer, believability is. Even in fantasy or Science Fiction novels...there has to be an adherence to the rules onces established.

If this is in reponse to me, I'm not sure I ever said that the demands for realism are inappropriate. In fact, I made my own complaints about the realism of the situation, not far removed from what others had to say I think--mainly having to do with the woman's reponses to her attacker. However, unlike Ginger, I never assumed that this story was trying to be a true-nonconsent story... In fact, Tail-Teller's questions didn't even lead me to the conclusion that that was his intention:

The story attempts to break out of the 'nonconsent' bogus/fantasy scenario. (A number of stories, there, now do.) The "O my, I'm being raped, stop, stop, oooh, I'm coming, let me eat your spunk, my dearest savage man" plot.

Was the effort worth it, or did any sexiness or erotism disappear?

Nowhere in that question does it say Tail_Teller was trying to write a true rape story. I got that he was trying to write something DIFFERENT. Something that explored some of the themes that traditional non-consent genre staples ignore, not necessarily that he was going for true non-consent--and I evaluated the story from that perspective.

As far as believability, I never said that the responsibility lay solely with the reader on whether or not a story is believable or follows it's own rules. There are indeed points in Tail_Teller's story that don't make immediate sense to me--most obviously the reactions and possible thought processes of the victim, but it was clear to me, even without having first read the author's own clarification on the subject, that the entire story was skewed from the perspective of a somewhat unreliable narrator, and that's partly where it's thematic and erotic appeal rested for me.

It seems unfortunate when all you had to do was trade the silly jar of Vaseline for a hand-gun...and bingo, instant control. Then I understand why she's not struggling/yelling/running.

Lord knows, I could be wrong, but I'm afraid that this instant handgun-esque control is precisely the kind of thing the author was trying to avoid. It's blatant... it's obvious. I find it much more interesting that there might be other things going on that contribute to the victim's reactions. I'm not saying that I SAW them, or that the author was completely successful there, I'm just saying that I was willing to suspend my disbelief long enough to try to evaluate the story according to what I thought were the author's intentions rather than fixating on pure cause and effect believability.

In keeping with that idea, I think Varian had a fantastic suggestion (as, I can speak from experience, she so often does):

VarianP wrote:

Hmmm, going back to the "Roskolnikov" comment, an aspect of R. which your narrator is missing is the incredibly thought-out, methodical approach. R. went to the old pawnbroker's a couple times, as I recall, to case the joint and do a dry run. This, I think, is an interesting aspect of the god-complex/sociopath—ensuring they are in complete control because they know what to expect. Your narrator gets away with what he's doing, but there's no reason he should. If she had acted differently, he'd be in deep shit.

This is the very crux of my criticism of the story, and in one paragraph I think Varian has suggested an amazing solution that intrigues me to no end. It immediately strikes me as a fantastic idea and perhaps in keeping with what the author was trying to do. It keeps the focus on the narrator, but if carefully handled can help to explain the victim's reactions... I'd love to see this research... the methodical preparation for his deed through his totally skewed and yet frighteningly sharp mind. And then I'd love to see how her reactions do or do not meet his expectations, and how he handles or mis-handles what happens based on what he thought it would be like and what it actually is. I really believe that could be one solution (certainly not necessarily the right one... and definitely not the only one) that might take care some of the "believability" issues we've all been discussing.

Anyway, I'm really rambling now. This is a brave story, and I applaud the author's willingness to tackle it, and all the inevitable "content" criticism that seems to accompany these kinds of things. I just thought I'd add another log to the fire--not to disagree with any of what's been said, but more to clarify my own thoughts about the story.

Again, I'm decidedly not an expert, and I'm more than likely just muddling the issue. I leave it to the more fiction savey folks to debate further. Although I do think that the story has a few issues, I really think alot of the varied reactions to it are due to the different expectations that each reader comes with--and in my opinion, that just further legitimizes what Tail_Teller has done--or at the very least, what he is TRYING to do.

I'll shut up now, finally.

 

[hiddenself]

I read it last weekend but never had the chance to post comments. And I am pressed now, so I apologize if some of this is unclear.

This sort of story IS my cup, but I found it tame, superficial--it did not go far enough. TAIL, if you want to write something like this, then write it damn it, let go with both guns. This is half-cocked, yes-but type of thing.

Yes, it is different, but it almost seems motivated by an effort to shock rather than actually tell a coherent story.

It is a little too cute, with those literary references (the Bible, Poe), which seem to clash with the narrator's other thoughts and manner of speaking. The character seems incoherent, a hodge-podge of disparate traits. Either make him refined and amoral a la Hannibal Lecter, or crude, but you seem to vaccilate and manage neither really.

There was very little erotic appeal to me here, mostly because of the incoherence of the whole thing. It's in the middle of the day and yet noone is around. The woman talks to a stranger (NOONE talks to strangers unless they are stupid or just came in from the boondocks), the shoelace comes undone, the asthma attack hits (it was not faked, right?) -- how more contrived can you get? The woman doesn't resist or scream, the assailant does not hesitate to play all these weird games without fear of discovery, and at the end we learn that "tears would bring someone faster than screams." It's just too fake.

Certain actual sexual parts are also a bit contrived. The scene with her fisting herself is particularly questionable. There has really been no violence, barely a threat (IMO), and yet she does all that stuff with barely a blink of an eye. And the fisting is way over the top in the believability department.

The slant with the mother and the sister and all that family psychobabble also failed for me. Lots of references but they mostly seemed random--without some defining quality. It was boring.

As for the demeaning elements, again, I found them very tame and unfocused. The technical aspect was there, but the psychological aspect was very pale.

And there was always some hint of an effort to explain, as if the author wanted to justify the enterprise as simply an exercise. Don't take it seriously folks, this is a fucked up amoral guy, not my fault, he's doing all this bad shit, but hey, I know it's bad, don't blame me, I just want to give an example of a seriously fucked up antisocial character. For me, the psychology failed almost entirely. The author did not really get behind the characters, so they came across as jerky and unrealistic.

 

[Pure]

hi hs,

i take it you didn't like the work and consider it badly done. you're brief as to reasons, but others have covered that in some detail.

incidentally, in the bigger parks around here, with bushes, etc. woman *are* occasionaly attacked in broad daylight. the 'screams' issue has been raised, as you have, by several commenters.

thanks for dropping in. got any stuff of your own, you'd like to volunteer?

 

[Varian P]

Re: Re: Grassroots Disc: the story "Proud" 10-03-04, SDC common queue

I just wanted to respond to one comment.

It is a little too cute, with those literary references (the Bible, Poe), which seem to clash with the narrator's other thoughts and manner of speaking. The character seems incoherent, a hodge-podge of disparate traits. Either make him refined and amoral a la Hannibal Lecter, or crude, but you seem to vaccilate and manage neither really.

While there's no point in arguing against various readers' perceptions, I'm inclined to disagree with the idea that a character should either be crude or refined. That seems overly reductive and likely to lead to creating types, like the Hannibal Lecter type. I'm for complexity of character, which I think the "Proud" narrator has.

For me, the character's seeming lack of formal education worked fine with his take on the literary exposure he got through his friend--especially because I think of both of the stories worked into this text--one from the bible and one from Poe--are stories people without much education are likely to be familiar with. I got my first dose of Poe through bad movies on TV featuring Vincent Price, and also read a bit of Poe in elementary school. It was quite believable to me that the narrator would latch on to these stories that had certain elements that spoke to some warped aspect of his psyche.

-Varian

 

[tail_teller]

Hi HS,

Thanks for giving it a read.

As to one of your comments, it's a bit mystifying:

And there was always some hint of an effort to explain, as if the author wanted to justify the enterprise as simply an exercise. Don't take it seriously folks, this is a fucked up amoral guy, not my fault, he's doing all this bad shit, but hey, I know it's bad, don't blame me,

I don't know where this comes from, except possibly my 'warnings' and cautions at the beginning. Ideally a work would stand on its own, and, these remarks, like the questions posed, probably detract from that.

If you want an historic parallel: To avoid prosecution Sade, at eh beginning of certain horrific works, said roughly, 'this is written to show the folly of vice.' To keep the censors off his tail.

Probably I said too much, but since the demise of 'extreme' and outside of horror, stories of evil are very rare at lit. In general too, there is a 'charge' against writers of violence that they somehow approve, advocate, or condone.

Probably less or nothing should have been said, if that's the main stimulus for that particular criticism.

Aside from that, I don't know of any evidence *in the story*, from which you can read my (author's) mind, or tell or reasonably infer that I was 'saying' or implying 'Don't take this seriously.'

I appreciate your efforts thus far, to explain some of your judgments.

TT

 

[Lying Eyes]

Re: Re: Re: Grassroots Disc: the story "Proud" 10-03-04, SDC common queue

While there's no point in arguing against various readers' perceptions, I'm inclined to disagree with the idea that a character should either be crude or refined.

For me, the character's seeming lack of formal education worked fine with his take on the literary exposure he got through his friend--especially because I think of both of the stories worked into this text--one from the bible and one from Poe--are stories people without much education are likely to be familiar with. It was quite believable to me that the narrator would latch on to these stories that had certain elements that spoke to some warped aspect of his psyche.

-Varian

I disagree with your disagreement

I'm all for complex characters that don't fit a sterotype but the problem is I just don't "buy it" here.

I get that it is the writer not the character that is coming out with the references of Job and Poe. I see this in other stories as well when it seems that literary and religous content infiltrates a story and just stands out a bit too oddly. While to the average writer these bits of literature and biblical tales might be common knowledge to the average public they are not. For example almost everyone reads Shakespeare in school yet very few people actualy remember much of his work unless they don't have alot of interest in writing and reading orhad an impact in their lives in some way. It's just too over the top for the masses. Even if they do remember they just don't care. I don't expect this character to talk about King Lear or The Raven for that matter but I do expect the writer to talk of such work.

I get that the character would either roll his eyes or nod his head pretending to listen to this talk from a girl when he is only interested in the woman's body rather then what she has to say. This is just an example of control a woman has over him. What I get is this character would see all this Poe/Job talk as crap in his ears that he has to deal with in order to get what he wants.

If their was a religous background mentioned, like his parents were very conservative God fearing folk then I could believe that he would remember and recount this "Job" story.

He knows how Poe dies? Why? He doesnt seem like a person who goes about reading or give a damn about his work. Alot of people might be familiar with his work but very few people care unless they have a background in writing or reading literature. Even if he had seen a Vincent Price movie adaptation of Poe's work he would probably not know or care that it is Poe's work. If their was some hint like he was an aspiring writer or a heavy reader then I could believe that it would fit the character.

Let's say 99% of literotica writers might know who (Marquis de) Sade is but out in the real world it is more likely that 99% have no idea. Basicly what I'm trying to say is there is got to be a significant reason why someone knows and remembers this kind of stuff whether it be Sade, Poe, Shakespear, Kafka or religious content like Job or The book of revelations, etc. In this case the content doesn't fit the character in my opinion.

 

[Pure]

Lying, I think your objections do not stand up. The narrator does not claim to have come upon Poe, in his habitual forays into the local library or at night school; or remembered from hs English, his favorite class. It says his pal and office mate, turned him onto Poe--indeed it's consistent that she read it to him. It is a reasonable assumption that knowledge of Poe's death was learned from the same source. The question is, could there be a young 'goth' type female with a literary bent, especially to do with the topic of evil. She of course is only a glorified 'gopher,' but I'm always surprised at the degrees and sophistication of those in fairly lowly office positions these days.

BTW, I also agree with Varian that the choice Lecter or crude is not a plausible requirement. There are all degrees of intelligent, half literate folks around. Whether the author succeeded with this spottily literate 'in between' (Lecter and crude) character is another question. HS hints that there are inconsistent ways of speaking--presumably literate and not-so-- in the one character, but gives no examples to support his point.

Judging from *some* of the damning comments posted, I'd have expected some to have suggested 'final exit' as a useful site for the bungling author. To remedy that oversight:

http://www.finalexit.org/ddbookframe.html

 

[Varian P]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Grassroots Disc: the story "Proud" 10-03-04, SDC common queue

I disagree with your disagreement

Hey, everyone! Fight! Fight!

Naw.

I think you've made some excellent points. In particular, I'm inclined to agree that the girl he's doin' may not be the most likely source of exposure to material the narrator would be inclined to take in and really contemplate. Given his mysogynistic tendencies, he's likely to tune out anything of substance the two quasi-girlfriends in the story might say.

I thought your suggestion of a reference to being raised religious, some memory of hearing the story of Job in church, is a great solution to this. As someone with about zero religious schooling who hasn't stepped foot in a church since the age of 10, I still remember that story from my childhood because it pissed me off so darn much.

And to a point, I agree with your feeling that writers sometimes plug in literary references which, while meaningful to them, aren't likely to be meaningful to their characters or, perhaps, to their readers.

I'd argue that in this case both stories are just the kind of things that would capture the imagination of the "Proud" narrator. But, being a lover of lit, I don't count myself qualified to guess at the power of such stories to stick in the minds of people who aren't so lit-minded.

My guess (rooted in pure speculation and based on no actual information whatever) is that when people hear or read a story, they either forget it almost instantly because nothing in it really speaks to them, or they dwell on it after they've heard it, and in rare instances where the themes have special potency for them, it might just stick with them forever.

When I was little, anything where animals got hurt totally traumatized me, so scenes from "Call of the Wild," "The Red Pony," and, yes, Poe's "Black Cat" stuck with me for ages (while about an hour after reading "The Red Badge of Courage" I'd forgotten the whole darn thing). Even if I hadn't gone on to be an on-again, off-again voracious reader, I think those impressions would still be with me. But then again, I was the child who would became the reader--so maybe that explains the power of those stories for me. Hmmm.

Just because this topic fascinates me, I'd be curious to hear more on what others' reactions were to the use of these particular literary references in this piece.

 

[GingerV]

I think one of the hardest things to do is write for a character who knows less than you do.

We've had other authors here (and heaven knows that I have) struggle with voice for just that reason. A word you think nothing of just doesn't sound right coming out of a character's mouth.

But it's no help, I feel, to go to far....to wind up with a stereotype of stupid instead of a fully developed character.

I think the references in here have perfectly good provenance. The character isn't an idiot, he's not meant to be a likable guy...but most of us have agreed that he comes across as uneducated, rather than dumb. He's not incapable...he may not even be incurious...he may just be unexposed. In which case, the fact that he's come across a girl who's willing to read Bible passages to him...or talk about Poe...that might be one of the things that's subconsciously attracting him. But it's not the part of the attraction that makes sense to his conscious mind, so he doesn't write about it...he writes about the sex. That's the part he THINKS justifies the interaction. He's allowed to be wrong about that. But it's not a character inconsistancy, necessarily.

One of the things I liked about the story was that sense of curiosity in him...the desire to make sense of the world, and the willingness to use the few tools (Bible/Poe) he was given to that end. Yeah, he twisted them to fit his needs...but that's part of what made it real. This guy isn't parroting what some professor had to say about Job or Poe. His interpretation of Job is actually pretty simplistic...it is what I thought, as Varian said, at 10. He's also obviously bent Poe to fit his needs. It's not an in depth analysis...he cherry picked the part he liked.

If the guy had started quoting Goedel, then yeah...it wouldn't have been believable. But I felt the references here were not only appropriate, but actually well suited to the story, and that they enhanced the subplots.

G

 

[Black Tulip]

I don't have much to add, but I didn't feel the references to Job out of place. I kind of figured he maybe had a religious upbringing, perhaps picked some tidbits up. No big deal.

The way he handled his information was believable to me. And I think that's what counts - with me.

About Poe, I can't say. I don't know enough. That is definitely out of my cultural frame. LOL