Grassroots Disc: Poussin, 01/30/05, SDC Common queue
- Thread starter Poussin
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Penelope Street
Literotica Guru
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Poussin,
I'll have a longer response after my second pass, but here are my thoughts after a quick first read:
I think you ought be proud of your skill with English. There are some rough spots and awkward places, sure, and I'll elaborate on those dry topics in a PM, but on the whole, I think your use of the language is at least adequate. There might be a stray idiom or such, but nothing major. And nothing like practice to improve, too, eh?
I have no problem with stories where the characters are not described. I'm content to provide my own images, once I understand that author does not intend to do so. I think, however, that the author should consider the intended audience in this matter. Men are, I am confident, far more visual. If you want to reach them, I'd lean toward describing the woman. You can leave the man undescribed of course- they'll fill in that blank.
That said, the characters are described to some extent. Myriam has a nice ass. Nick is a hunk. Their complexion is fair enough to worry about tan lines. I liked the way this information is part of the flow instead of as some stray statement from the narrator. This does leave one issue however- what if I had imagined the characters to have a dark complexion? Then the tan lines scene midway through clashes the visions I had conjured, yes? My point is, that if an author doesn't provide a description early, it is best to take care not to provide one later by accident.
I didn't care for the hammock scene. I didn't believe she would have forgotten her topless state. I didn't see the entire point of the topless business anyway. Is it just meant to be a tease? A wet shirt is far more of a tease, no?
I liked, for the most part, the nude posing scene. That had a nice tease feel too it. Also said a lot about how they really felt.
I didn't care for the scene in the car after the voyeur episode- thought it was a bit mean spirited and I didn't see her giving in to what amounts to bullying. Or maybe I just didn't want her to. His anger is a believable reaction, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed it. I think this could have worked much better if she had caught him watching her at that secluded beach that was mentioned. Then she could give a show. That could have been nice, no?
The voyeur scene at night doesn't work for me at all. Of course, after three games of Scrabble just about anything might have its appeal. Really though, that Nick stumbles upon Myriam stumbling upon the other two and none of the watchees notices the watchers- that seems a bit far-fetched.
I also didn't care much about the advice from mom. I need to see mother much more before this or she seems like a plot device.
I think the final scene works well. In spite of the telegraphed ending, I did like the way she asked him to essentially move in with her. Cute, subtle, and sexy. The eroticism was appropriate after that too, hard and fast- just like two young lovers in full rut who finally let the reins loose on their passion.
While we're on that, I think the season should have been mating season for deer in the mountains. The mating call of an elk is always a nice touch at just the right moment- no?
Some of the scenes where Myriam and Nick spend time together feel contrived, particularly the drive to the mountains- "I ended up getting in Nick's car..." I knew she was going to ride with Nick, but I still wanted some other explanation that it just happened more or less like an accident.
For the most part, the plot is predictable. The other characters are just clutter. Less charafters would have been better, I think.
The only conflict is the classic incest dilemma of Myriam deciding it's ok to feel lust for her cousin. I never quite felt her angst. Perhaps because she seemed to have Nick on the brain so much, I was unwilling to believe deep inside she hadn't already resolved the issue.
Ok. That's my stray thoughts after read one. I liked the opening, but about a quarter of the way through I figured out what would happen and it there was a long dull section for me. A few nice points in between and a cute ending. Not bad, but nothing that made me sit up and go "Wow!" either.
There were numerous minor snags (expect a PM about these), but nothing that I haven't seen from some writers that grew up speaking English. While the English in this story may not be on a par with a master, it is certainly good enough to get the point across and then some.
Take Care,
Penny
I'll have a longer response after my second pass, but here are my thoughts after a quick first read:
I think you ought be proud of your skill with English. There are some rough spots and awkward places, sure, and I'll elaborate on those dry topics in a PM, but on the whole, I think your use of the language is at least adequate. There might be a stray idiom or such, but nothing major. And nothing like practice to improve, too, eh?
I have no problem with stories where the characters are not described. I'm content to provide my own images, once I understand that author does not intend to do so. I think, however, that the author should consider the intended audience in this matter. Men are, I am confident, far more visual. If you want to reach them, I'd lean toward describing the woman. You can leave the man undescribed of course- they'll fill in that blank.
That said, the characters are described to some extent. Myriam has a nice ass. Nick is a hunk. Their complexion is fair enough to worry about tan lines. I liked the way this information is part of the flow instead of as some stray statement from the narrator. This does leave one issue however- what if I had imagined the characters to have a dark complexion? Then the tan lines scene midway through clashes the visions I had conjured, yes? My point is, that if an author doesn't provide a description early, it is best to take care not to provide one later by accident.
I didn't care for the hammock scene. I didn't believe she would have forgotten her topless state. I didn't see the entire point of the topless business anyway. Is it just meant to be a tease? A wet shirt is far more of a tease, no?
I liked, for the most part, the nude posing scene. That had a nice tease feel too it. Also said a lot about how they really felt.
I didn't care for the scene in the car after the voyeur episode- thought it was a bit mean spirited and I didn't see her giving in to what amounts to bullying. Or maybe I just didn't want her to. His anger is a believable reaction, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed it. I think this could have worked much better if she had caught him watching her at that secluded beach that was mentioned. Then she could give a show. That could have been nice, no?
The voyeur scene at night doesn't work for me at all. Of course, after three games of Scrabble just about anything might have its appeal. Really though, that Nick stumbles upon Myriam stumbling upon the other two and none of the watchees notices the watchers- that seems a bit far-fetched.
I also didn't care much about the advice from mom. I need to see mother much more before this or she seems like a plot device.
I think the final scene works well. In spite of the telegraphed ending, I did like the way she asked him to essentially move in with her. Cute, subtle, and sexy. The eroticism was appropriate after that too, hard and fast- just like two young lovers in full rut who finally let the reins loose on their passion.
While we're on that, I think the season should have been mating season for deer in the mountains. The mating call of an elk is always a nice touch at just the right moment- no?
Some of the scenes where Myriam and Nick spend time together feel contrived, particularly the drive to the mountains- "I ended up getting in Nick's car..." I knew she was going to ride with Nick, but I still wanted some other explanation that it just happened more or less like an accident.
For the most part, the plot is predictable. The other characters are just clutter. Less charafters would have been better, I think.
The only conflict is the classic incest dilemma of Myriam deciding it's ok to feel lust for her cousin. I never quite felt her angst. Perhaps because she seemed to have Nick on the brain so much, I was unwilling to believe deep inside she hadn't already resolved the issue.
Ok. That's my stray thoughts after read one. I liked the opening, but about a quarter of the way through I figured out what would happen and it there was a long dull section for me. A few nice points in between and a cute ending. Not bad, but nothing that made me sit up and go "Wow!" either.
There were numerous minor snags (expect a PM about these), but nothing that I haven't seen from some writers that grew up speaking English. While the English in this story may not be on a par with a master, it is certainly good enough to get the point across and then some.
Take Care,
Penny
jimhawkins
Virgin
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2004
- Posts
- 20
Let me start by answering your questions.
I read this and didnt think it came from someone's whose second language was English. There were few problems I noticed. Far less then a lot of other writers here whose English should be better then it is.
I like stories which show the charectors in different surroundings doing different things and so I liked the two bits you wanted to cut out...particuarly the discussion about artists and thier models. You made the good point that artist think as artists and not with thier sex organs when painting. But then others think I put in too much information so perhaps my comment isnt very good on this.
Penny rightly says the story line is predictable, well it is but how do you avoid this? Most stories are fairly predictable. We know when reading any book by Jane Austen almost from the first chapter who will end up marrying, we know when reading Jane Eyre that there is indeed something or someone fearsome locked up in the top storey of Mr Rochester's house (And for that matter that Mr Rochester wouldnt marry the girl who all but flings herself at him for his wealth and social standing but will marry Jane and that St John Rivers wont) and so on. (Forgive me 19th Century English Literature is one of my pet subjects)
But, sometimes and here is an example the predicability is a little forced. By that I mean that it was a big jump or so I thought from the initial contact between the cousins to suddenly Myriam "wet dreaming" of Nick and resting her hand on Nick's thigh (and less likely that Myriam would not notice what she was doing- perhaps she might pretend not to though.
The scenes that didnt work for Penny didnt work for me either. I can see Nick being angry but to make his cousin masturbate... sorry I can't see that happening (he loves the girl, he wouldnt want to humiliate her. The voyeur scene is all but done to death in so many stories. Yours would be better if you could find some other way to create some tension and to resolve the tension.
More later. I'm back at work and have to keep going. Anyway like others here I think I would a better critic if I read the story again.
But its good. I liked it
I read this and didnt think it came from someone's whose second language was English. There were few problems I noticed. Far less then a lot of other writers here whose English should be better then it is.
I like stories which show the charectors in different surroundings doing different things and so I liked the two bits you wanted to cut out...particuarly the discussion about artists and thier models. You made the good point that artist think as artists and not with thier sex organs when painting. But then others think I put in too much information so perhaps my comment isnt very good on this.
Penny rightly says the story line is predictable, well it is but how do you avoid this? Most stories are fairly predictable. We know when reading any book by Jane Austen almost from the first chapter who will end up marrying, we know when reading Jane Eyre that there is indeed something or someone fearsome locked up in the top storey of Mr Rochester's house (And for that matter that Mr Rochester wouldnt marry the girl who all but flings herself at him for his wealth and social standing but will marry Jane and that St John Rivers wont) and so on. (Forgive me 19th Century English Literature is one of my pet subjects)
But, sometimes and here is an example the predicability is a little forced. By that I mean that it was a big jump or so I thought from the initial contact between the cousins to suddenly Myriam "wet dreaming" of Nick and resting her hand on Nick's thigh (and less likely that Myriam would not notice what she was doing- perhaps she might pretend not to though.
The scenes that didnt work for Penny didnt work for me either. I can see Nick being angry but to make his cousin masturbate... sorry I can't see that happening (he loves the girl, he wouldnt want to humiliate her. The voyeur scene is all but done to death in so many stories. Yours would be better if you could find some other way to create some tension and to resolve the tension.
More later. I'm back at work and have to keep going. Anyway like others here I think I would a better critic if I read the story again.
But its good. I liked it
Penelope Street
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 28, 2004
- Posts
- 1,471
Poussin,
I must admit it is a guess on my part that average male reader prefers a physical description of a female character. There is, I think, a widely held perception at this site that the bulk of men want some bimbo with watermelon-sized breasts on her knees deep-throating a ten inch cock before the end of the second paragraph. Originally I was guilty of this same prejudice. But I was wrong.
If one bothers to look past the wanker myth, I think there is ample evidence that men appreciate reasonable characters and a decent plot in the same way that women do. I have had a few conversations with male readers regarding my stories and what they liked, including which characters they found most arousing. Suffice to say, the average man at Literotica is a more sophisticated individual than I had originally imagined.
One of my problems with the SUV scene is that while I'm willing to believe Nick would be angry and/or jealous, I'm not so comfortable with him behaving in a despicable manner due to these emotions. And the part where Myriam takes off her panties and throws them at Nick; this action is meant to represent the magnitude of her ire? I can't say that I ever even considered taking off my clothes and throwing them at a man as a means of letting him know I was displeased with some aspect of his behavior. That seems a highly ineffective means of communication. In that situation, I think the appropriate move for any sane woman is to simply start walking. With some swagger. And don't look back!
I might have been more willing to accept the voyeur scene had it occurred in the house. Tight quarters, less privacy, etc. As another thought, a good blowjob can be a noisy affair. Any reason Myriam couldn't hear the event? I'd have been much more willing to believe Nick might stumble upon her in that situation too. Of course, that’s not quite as seedy as watching. Brings up an inconsequential question: If one just hears others having sex, what are they, an auditeur?
The attempt to foreshadow a submissive streak in Myriam with the line about everyone always behaving father, this was a good idea, but perhaps it was a bit too subtle. I think I needed to see her be submissive a bit for this idea to take hold- even if dad just tells her to do the dishes or instructs her to go into town for supplies, that might have helped. But when Nick has to throw her in the lake to get her shirt off, I think that overshadowed any previous foreshadowing.
As the story is, the character I envision as Myriam wants a partner more than a guardian- which is a fine choice, but apparently not the one intended?
I don't think you want to include a conversation about who rides with whom. As much as I like dialogue, that would be boring. Something as simple as dad saying, "Ok, who's riding with who?" and then just having Nick and Myriam look at one another and maybe smile. I would have liked that fine.
All the touchy-feely casual-nudism stuff seemed a bit foreign to me aw well. I thought the "How long have you been in France?" line was a good way of suggesting that everyone but Myriam thought going topless was normal. Perhaps knowing where exactly this story occurs might have helped too.
I don't think predictability is necessarily a big flaw. Most readers know what's going to happen in the big scheme of things. The trick, to my way of thinking, is to let them like the characters first and tease them a bit along the way. Easier said than done, of course.
Take Care,
Penny
I must admit it is a guess on my part that average male reader prefers a physical description of a female character. There is, I think, a widely held perception at this site that the bulk of men want some bimbo with watermelon-sized breasts on her knees deep-throating a ten inch cock before the end of the second paragraph. Originally I was guilty of this same prejudice. But I was wrong.
If one bothers to look past the wanker myth, I think there is ample evidence that men appreciate reasonable characters and a decent plot in the same way that women do. I have had a few conversations with male readers regarding my stories and what they liked, including which characters they found most arousing. Suffice to say, the average man at Literotica is a more sophisticated individual than I had originally imagined.
One of my problems with the SUV scene is that while I'm willing to believe Nick would be angry and/or jealous, I'm not so comfortable with him behaving in a despicable manner due to these emotions. And the part where Myriam takes off her panties and throws them at Nick; this action is meant to represent the magnitude of her ire? I can't say that I ever even considered taking off my clothes and throwing them at a man as a means of letting him know I was displeased with some aspect of his behavior. That seems a highly ineffective means of communication. In that situation, I think the appropriate move for any sane woman is to simply start walking. With some swagger. And don't look back!
I might have been more willing to accept the voyeur scene had it occurred in the house. Tight quarters, less privacy, etc. As another thought, a good blowjob can be a noisy affair. Any reason Myriam couldn't hear the event? I'd have been much more willing to believe Nick might stumble upon her in that situation too. Of course, that’s not quite as seedy as watching. Brings up an inconsequential question: If one just hears others having sex, what are they, an auditeur?
The attempt to foreshadow a submissive streak in Myriam with the line about everyone always behaving father, this was a good idea, but perhaps it was a bit too subtle. I think I needed to see her be submissive a bit for this idea to take hold- even if dad just tells her to do the dishes or instructs her to go into town for supplies, that might have helped. But when Nick has to throw her in the lake to get her shirt off, I think that overshadowed any previous foreshadowing.
As the story is, the character I envision as Myriam wants a partner more than a guardian- which is a fine choice, but apparently not the one intended?
I don't think you want to include a conversation about who rides with whom. As much as I like dialogue, that would be boring. Something as simple as dad saying, "Ok, who's riding with who?" and then just having Nick and Myriam look at one another and maybe smile. I would have liked that fine.
All the touchy-feely casual-nudism stuff seemed a bit foreign to me aw well. I thought the "How long have you been in France?" line was a good way of suggesting that everyone but Myriam thought going topless was normal. Perhaps knowing where exactly this story occurs might have helped too.
I don't think predictability is necessarily a big flaw. Most readers know what's going to happen in the big scheme of things. The trick, to my way of thinking, is to let them like the characters first and tease them a bit along the way. Easier said than done, of course.
Take Care,
Penny
Black Tulip
Not so delicate flower
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 5,945
Hi Poussin,
I read your story with pleasure. Since English is not my native language, you won't get any comments on grammar or spelling from me. LOL
I have not yet read other comments, so please forgive me for bringing up any old news.
In general I have one major point to raise. I guess you want the story to be incest. The problem here is that for me the sense of the forbidden is not clear enough. There should be more tension, soul searching, that sort of thing. Trying to resist temptation.
Ok, here's my notes as I made them while reading:
What I do like is the part where Myriam has a tilt in her perception, suddenly realizing her cousin is an attractive male.
I had a bit of trouble with the punishment from Nick. I still have not figured out why Myriam obeyed him there. She was getting turned on by the situation, but why did she enter it in first place? There has to be something more here.
I liked the scene with Nick modelling very much. The picture of her putting the lines of his body on paper with her fingers was really good.
Now for your questions:
I liked the hammock scene but again, no harm done if you get rid of it.
The modelling is quite another cup of tea, but I already told you that.
Hope my remarks are of some use to you. However, feel free to ignore any and all of it.
I read your story with pleasure. Since English is not my native language, you won't get any comments on grammar or spelling from me. LOL
I have not yet read other comments, so please forgive me for bringing up any old news.
In general I have one major point to raise. I guess you want the story to be incest. The problem here is that for me the sense of the forbidden is not clear enough. There should be more tension, soul searching, that sort of thing. Trying to resist temptation.
Ok, here's my notes as I made them while reading:
When I first read this I thought the "I" was struggling to find an argument. Could be just me though.
I had to read a whole lot more before I had figured out who, what, where. Why not say something like:
What I do like is the part where Myriam has a tilt in her perception, suddenly realizing her cousin is an attractive male.
I had a bit of trouble with the punishment from Nick. I still have not figured out why Myriam obeyed him there. She was getting turned on by the situation, but why did she enter it in first place? There has to be something more here.
I liked the scene with Nick modelling very much. The picture of her putting the lines of his body on paper with her fingers was really good.
Now for your questions:
No problem at all. In fact, I hadn't even noticed till you mentioned it.
The discussion didn't bother me, but I think you can lose it easily.
I liked the hammock scene but again, no harm done if you get rid of it.
The modelling is quite another cup of tea, but I already told you that.
Don't ask me. That would be the blind aiding the cripple. LOL
Hope my remarks are of some use to you. However, feel free to ignore any and all of it.
hiddenself
Really Really Experienced
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2002
- Posts
- 452
I read only the first posting (skimmed the first couple of scenes of the second one) and it was quite decent writing. It was not always smooth and had its ups and downs, but if was not bad at all. I particularly liked the Nick/Myriam wake-up scene. 
OK. The story seemed to me a bit too packed with different scenes and sex elements (from voyeurism to incest, and from humiliation to love story) and people (although Nick and Myriam were always in the thick of things). Also, I was not sure whether you were aiming for an incest element; in that case, I found it bland -- cousins are not exactly the ultimate taboo (and it was too lovey-dovey for my tastes). It read more like a more-or-less middle-of-the-road sex story (unless there's a secret that is revealed in parts I did not get to).
With respect to language, there were some few awkward expressions and consrtructions. But many native speakers make the same mistakes, so they are not necessarily an indication of a non-native speaker.
an argument that would weight in favour...
weigh
We silently went down the 6 flights of stairs together. Each other’s presence more comforting than words could be.
Technically, there should be a comma (not a period) between the two sentences. If you are going for artistic effect, it doesn't work for me here.
cousin's argument
at my parent’s house.
cousins' argument
parents' house
the bed that had harboured all my childhood’s dream.
lost the pillar of our family
"harboured" childhood dream?!
"pillar" of the family?!
Eeek. Cliche alert!
I laid awake
I lay awake
On a few occasions, I think that what you have written is simply not said in spoken English, but there were only a few that grated on me:
Let’s make an agreement,... (nothing really wrong with this sentence, but it simply sounds unnatural in spoken English)
I could use a few days off in the mountain... (? on the mountain?)
take all vehicles ("vehicles"?)
Finally, I've heard that some men will call their grown-up daughters "baby" but the word seemed out of place the way you used it. And unless Nick was 10-15 years older than Myriam, why would he call her "kiddo"?
Anyway, nothing major overall, but I also did not find that spark that lights me up sometimes.
OK. The story seemed to me a bit too packed with different scenes and sex elements (from voyeurism to incest, and from humiliation to love story) and people (although Nick and Myriam were always in the thick of things). Also, I was not sure whether you were aiming for an incest element; in that case, I found it bland -- cousins are not exactly the ultimate taboo (and it was too lovey-dovey for my tastes). It read more like a more-or-less middle-of-the-road sex story (unless there's a secret that is revealed in parts I did not get to).
With respect to language, there were some few awkward expressions and consrtructions. But many native speakers make the same mistakes, so they are not necessarily an indication of a non-native speaker.
an argument that would weight in favour...
weigh
We silently went down the 6 flights of stairs together. Each other’s presence more comforting than words could be.
Technically, there should be a comma (not a period) between the two sentences. If you are going for artistic effect, it doesn't work for me here.
cousin's argument
at my parent’s house.
cousins' argument
parents' house
the bed that had harboured all my childhood’s dream.
lost the pillar of our family
"harboured" childhood dream?!
"pillar" of the family?!
Eeek. Cliche alert!
I laid awake
I lay awake
On a few occasions, I think that what you have written is simply not said in spoken English, but there were only a few that grated on me:
Let’s make an agreement,... (nothing really wrong with this sentence, but it simply sounds unnatural in spoken English)
I could use a few days off in the mountain... (? on the mountain?)
take all vehicles ("vehicles"?)
Finally, I've heard that some men will call their grown-up daughters "baby" but the word seemed out of place the way you used it. And unless Nick was 10-15 years older than Myriam, why would he call her "kiddo"?
Anyway, nothing major overall, but I also did not find that spark that lights me up sometimes.
Rumple Foreskin
The AH Patriarch
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2002
- Posts
- 11,109
Poussin,
You’ve had some very good critique. Now you get mine. Instead of going back over what the others have already covered, I’m going to answer your questions best I can and then focus on the opening.
--
1-Did the fact that there was no physical description of the characters bothered you? Should I add some?
RF: Yes. Yes. Omitting descriptions can be an effective device if handled right, but it can also cause confusion. It makes it harder for the reader to visualize the characters and thus to distinguish between them. The descriptions don’t have to be in great detail, just a little something to help the reader.
2-There are two segments of the story I felt like removing completely: the first being the discussion on models and artists and the hammock scene and the second being the afternoon at the cliffs where Nick models for Myriam. At this point I'm not sure these add anything at all to the story. I've left them to get your opinion. Feel free to indicate any other scenes that you think might be cut or shortened?
RF: There’s no right or wrong answer. The pragmatic answer is cut. At over 11,000 words, this is approaching a short novella in length which could make it a hard sell. The artistic answer is, it’s your story, do what you feel is best. There are many longer ones in the Lit archives.
3-As for the writing itself, can you feel as you read that this is a second language? Are there sentences that just feel wrong? Can you point some to me? Do I switch language levels without noticing?
RF: I agree with the others who said this was a remarkable job for a first-time writer for whom English is a second language. The main problem was idioms and usage. There’s no quick cure for that except to read and listen to how folks use the language.
--
I really, really, really didn’t like the opening. Here’s why:
There’s an old writing cliché that says your first word should be your best word, your first sentence your best sentence, etc. It’s also considered important to quickly “hook” the reader. IMHO, your opening isn’t your best writing and it’s more likely to confuse than hook readers.
Exclamation marks are the equivalent of a shout. There are six exclamation marks in the story’s first 300 words; thirty in the first 3600. Let your words tell the story, not punctuation marks.
It’s four paragraphs before the name of any speaker is revealed.
Two more paragraphs pass before readers learn the name of the other speaker.
In that same paragraph, a narrator referred to as “I” picks up the story, but “I” isn’t identified. For all the reader knows, it might be the other speaker, Marc.
Half-way through the paragraph, the reader learns the two speakers are twins. Readers who have assumed the narrator was one of them, must now adjust their thinking to the fact the speaker is still unknown.
Later, thanks to the dialogue of the unmanned step-father, the reader can intuit that the narrator is probably the twin’s cousin, Myriam who hasn’t set a date for returning to Paris.
Between my bilge and the good stuff others have ladled out, you should have plenty to chew on. You’ve made an impressive start. Keep writing.
Rumple Foreskin
You’ve had some very good critique. Now you get mine. Instead of going back over what the others have already covered, I’m going to answer your questions best I can and then focus on the opening.
--
1-Did the fact that there was no physical description of the characters bothered you? Should I add some?
RF: Yes. Yes. Omitting descriptions can be an effective device if handled right, but it can also cause confusion. It makes it harder for the reader to visualize the characters and thus to distinguish between them. The descriptions don’t have to be in great detail, just a little something to help the reader.
2-There are two segments of the story I felt like removing completely: the first being the discussion on models and artists and the hammock scene and the second being the afternoon at the cliffs where Nick models for Myriam. At this point I'm not sure these add anything at all to the story. I've left them to get your opinion. Feel free to indicate any other scenes that you think might be cut or shortened?
RF: There’s no right or wrong answer. The pragmatic answer is cut. At over 11,000 words, this is approaching a short novella in length which could make it a hard sell. The artistic answer is, it’s your story, do what you feel is best. There are many longer ones in the Lit archives.
3-As for the writing itself, can you feel as you read that this is a second language? Are there sentences that just feel wrong? Can you point some to me? Do I switch language levels without noticing?
RF: I agree with the others who said this was a remarkable job for a first-time writer for whom English is a second language. The main problem was idioms and usage. There’s no quick cure for that except to read and listen to how folks use the language.
--
I really, really, really didn’t like the opening. Here’s why:
There’s an old writing cliché that says your first word should be your best word, your first sentence your best sentence, etc. It’s also considered important to quickly “hook” the reader. IMHO, your opening isn’t your best writing and it’s more likely to confuse than hook readers.
Exclamation marks are the equivalent of a shout. There are six exclamation marks in the story’s first 300 words; thirty in the first 3600. Let your words tell the story, not punctuation marks.
It’s four paragraphs before the name of any speaker is revealed.
Two more paragraphs pass before readers learn the name of the other speaker.
In that same paragraph, a narrator referred to as “I” picks up the story, but “I” isn’t identified. For all the reader knows, it might be the other speaker, Marc.
Half-way through the paragraph, the reader learns the two speakers are twins. Readers who have assumed the narrator was one of them, must now adjust their thinking to the fact the speaker is still unknown.
Later, thanks to the dialogue of the unmanned step-father, the reader can intuit that the narrator is probably the twin’s cousin, Myriam who hasn’t set a date for returning to Paris.
Between my bilge and the good stuff others have ladled out, you should have plenty to chew on. You’ve made an impressive start. Keep writing.
Rumple Foreskin
Black Tulip
Not so delicate flower
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 5,945
As for speaking to far away friends, I have just been made aware of this nifty thing called Skype. If you download the program (it's free) you can telephone through your pc with no cost at all. You need speakers and a microphone. I do not even have a headset but the sound is good enough and you can talk with each other without huge bills.
Go have a look at skype.com.
Go have a look at skype.com.
Rumple Foreskin
The AH Patriarch
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2002
- Posts
- 11,109
Poussin,
I'm writing this after reading your critique of my story. Believe me, I got the better end of the critiques.
First person: Let me tell you about first person. New writers almost always start in first person because it "feels" natural. Believe me, it ain't. IMHO, first person is very hard to handle. You mentioned; how can the narrator describe themselves w/o resorting to the old "looking in the mirror" gambit?
The "natural" form is third person, past tense. You can limit the point of view (POV) to one person and get most of the intimacy of first person w/o all the headaches. This is the way all the great stories have been told, from, "Once upon a time, there lived a lovely frog," (or some such) to the opening sentence in Toni Morrison's Paradise "They shoot the white girl first."
As for physical description, whether first or third person, the initial description of the character can be very brief and indirect. Long descriptions aren't required. Hemingway gave almost none. But giving the reader something, anything more than just a name can be a real help, IMHO.
Rumple Foreskin
I'm writing this after reading your critique of my story. Believe me, I got the better end of the critiques.
First person: Let me tell you about first person. New writers almost always start in first person because it "feels" natural. Believe me, it ain't. IMHO, first person is very hard to handle. You mentioned; how can the narrator describe themselves w/o resorting to the old "looking in the mirror" gambit?
The "natural" form is third person, past tense. You can limit the point of view (POV) to one person and get most of the intimacy of first person w/o all the headaches. This is the way all the great stories have been told, from, "Once upon a time, there lived a lovely frog," (or some such) to the opening sentence in Toni Morrison's Paradise "They shoot the white girl first."
As for physical description, whether first or third person, the initial description of the character can be very brief and indirect. Long descriptions aren't required. Hemingway gave almost none. But giving the reader something, anything more than just a name can be a real help, IMHO.
Rumple Foreskin
dr_mabeuse
seduce the mind
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2002
- Posts
- 11,528
First of all, I didn’t know that they went topless in the Cote d’azure, so I couldn’t figure out why Marc was suddenly talking about her breasts. I think the fact that the women are all topless should be made more plain than just by referring the the Cote d’azure.
I’ve got to think that this story is based on some real people or experience, otherwise I can’t understand why you’d want to people your story with two generations of family in a vacation house. Not only are so many characters hard to keep straight, but it’s hard for me to think of a more unerotic situation: a crowd of relatives cheek to jowl, your mom and dad there and she sunbathing topless… Ugh! I never was sure how many people were there, but it gave me the impression of a huge family, and most of them had no role in the story.
As far as your writing skills, there were a few minor glitches, but nothing to tell that English isn’t your native tongue. You are far more literate and your prose is much better than 95% of what you see on Literotica, so I wouldn’t even worry about that.
What did bother me were the length of the story and the pacing. I grew very impatient, and when I got down to the car scene I’d had enough I’m afraid.
I thought it dragged. It might be that simple nudity is not at all arousing to me, and much of this story draws its eroticism from nudity in one form or another. In fact, sometimes nudity can be a turn off, as I think it would be if it were me and my family at that cabin (Ugh! again). Take away the nudity, and all we have is some mild flirting and her voyeurism of Marc & friend to take us down to the car scene. That’s a long distance to go when you’re not caught up in some compelling story. And I’m afraid that I didn’t feel that what was happening between Nick and Myriam was very compelling.
I’m not sure why I feel this way. It might just be a matter of personal taste, because I don’t care for these extended kinds of will-they/won’t-they games when you already know that they will, otherwise there wouldn’t be a story. But it could also be that Nick and Myriam just don’t click for me. I just don’t feel the attraction or the tension.
Plus, it seems just when we have an erotic scene, it’s followed by the whole clan at the breakfast table again having wholesome family fun.
I should probably confess that I don’t much care for incest stories ayhow, probably for this very reason. Brother or sister or close cousins as we have here are already like old married couples. Much of the mystery and drama of discovery is gone and the eroticism comes from the violation of the taboo. I don’t feel that any taboos are being violated here. But you should bear in mind my prejudice against incest.
Everyone is very wholesome here, and I actually think that this feeling of health and well-being detracts from the erotic tension. I think this story would have sizzled more with a few skeletons in the closet and a slightly more disfunctional family, but that’s just me. As it is, it seems like too much fun in the sun. I get the feeling they sit around the fire at night and roast weenies and sing songs together. I mean, that’s nice, but it’s hardly erotic.
I did like the sex. I liked the mutual masturbation in the car. I thought that was fresh and original and erotic. I don’t know if I believed it though. I wasn’t especially interested in seeing Nick and Myriam consummate, because I already knew how they’d be as a couple, if that makes any sense. Knowing each other as well as they do, I expect the sex was sweet and beautiful and mutually fulfilling.
I think maybe if Myriam had made her mind up about wanting Nick earlier, it might have given the story more of a direction for me and more dramatic thrust. As it is, she’s pretty wishy-washy about it, and so up until the car scene she’s just floating around without direction and things seem to happen to her, like people taking their clothes off in front of her. In fact, everyone just seems to floating around, even Nick, who also takes his clothes off for her. It's a tough one, because that's what you do on vacation is hang around (& take your clothes off), but still, I wish someone had had some purpose or goal in mind, something to propel the story and give it a sense of direction.
In any case, I think you’re a fine and sensitive writer, but for my money you took a luke warm couple and put them in a luke warm setting and ended up with a story that was less that hot.
---dr.M.
As to your questions: The lack of description didn't bother me at all. I get sick of that "as she tossed her long auburn hair"/"She turned her big blue eyes on him" crap. My philosophy is, if it isn't vital to the story, don't mention it. I got a good picture of Myriam through her thoughts and words, and she gave us all we needed to know about Nick. Her descriptions of him were beautiful and natural and told us as much about her as they did about Nick.
English? As I said, not a problem.
The hammock scene: Well, it's not necessary, but removing it isn't going to make or break the story. I really think you'd do better to condense the action down to 3 or 4 very telling and dramatic scenes than having them all milling about so much. To be honest, I didn't see the purpose of the sunbathing-on-the-dock/Nick-throws-her-in-the-water scene either. We already know these people like each other. Why not show us the scenes where the really significant thigs happen?
I’ve got to think that this story is based on some real people or experience, otherwise I can’t understand why you’d want to people your story with two generations of family in a vacation house. Not only are so many characters hard to keep straight, but it’s hard for me to think of a more unerotic situation: a crowd of relatives cheek to jowl, your mom and dad there and she sunbathing topless… Ugh! I never was sure how many people were there, but it gave me the impression of a huge family, and most of them had no role in the story.
As far as your writing skills, there were a few minor glitches, but nothing to tell that English isn’t your native tongue. You are far more literate and your prose is much better than 95% of what you see on Literotica, so I wouldn’t even worry about that.
What did bother me were the length of the story and the pacing. I grew very impatient, and when I got down to the car scene I’d had enough I’m afraid.
I thought it dragged. It might be that simple nudity is not at all arousing to me, and much of this story draws its eroticism from nudity in one form or another. In fact, sometimes nudity can be a turn off, as I think it would be if it were me and my family at that cabin (Ugh! again). Take away the nudity, and all we have is some mild flirting and her voyeurism of Marc & friend to take us down to the car scene. That’s a long distance to go when you’re not caught up in some compelling story. And I’m afraid that I didn’t feel that what was happening between Nick and Myriam was very compelling.
I’m not sure why I feel this way. It might just be a matter of personal taste, because I don’t care for these extended kinds of will-they/won’t-they games when you already know that they will, otherwise there wouldn’t be a story. But it could also be that Nick and Myriam just don’t click for me. I just don’t feel the attraction or the tension.
Plus, it seems just when we have an erotic scene, it’s followed by the whole clan at the breakfast table again having wholesome family fun.
I should probably confess that I don’t much care for incest stories ayhow, probably for this very reason. Brother or sister or close cousins as we have here are already like old married couples. Much of the mystery and drama of discovery is gone and the eroticism comes from the violation of the taboo. I don’t feel that any taboos are being violated here. But you should bear in mind my prejudice against incest.
Everyone is very wholesome here, and I actually think that this feeling of health and well-being detracts from the erotic tension. I think this story would have sizzled more with a few skeletons in the closet and a slightly more disfunctional family, but that’s just me. As it is, it seems like too much fun in the sun. I get the feeling they sit around the fire at night and roast weenies and sing songs together. I mean, that’s nice, but it’s hardly erotic.
I did like the sex. I liked the mutual masturbation in the car. I thought that was fresh and original and erotic. I don’t know if I believed it though. I wasn’t especially interested in seeing Nick and Myriam consummate, because I already knew how they’d be as a couple, if that makes any sense. Knowing each other as well as they do, I expect the sex was sweet and beautiful and mutually fulfilling.
I think maybe if Myriam had made her mind up about wanting Nick earlier, it might have given the story more of a direction for me and more dramatic thrust. As it is, she’s pretty wishy-washy about it, and so up until the car scene she’s just floating around without direction and things seem to happen to her, like people taking their clothes off in front of her. In fact, everyone just seems to floating around, even Nick, who also takes his clothes off for her. It's a tough one, because that's what you do on vacation is hang around (& take your clothes off), but still, I wish someone had had some purpose or goal in mind, something to propel the story and give it a sense of direction.
In any case, I think you’re a fine and sensitive writer, but for my money you took a luke warm couple and put them in a luke warm setting and ended up with a story that was less that hot.
---dr.M.
As to your questions: The lack of description didn't bother me at all. I get sick of that "as she tossed her long auburn hair"/"She turned her big blue eyes on him" crap. My philosophy is, if it isn't vital to the story, don't mention it. I got a good picture of Myriam through her thoughts and words, and she gave us all we needed to know about Nick. Her descriptions of him were beautiful and natural and told us as much about her as they did about Nick.
English? As I said, not a problem.
The hammock scene: Well, it's not necessary, but removing it isn't going to make or break the story. I really think you'd do better to condense the action down to 3 or 4 very telling and dramatic scenes than having them all milling about so much. To be honest, I didn't see the purpose of the sunbathing-on-the-dock/Nick-throws-her-in-the-water scene either. We already know these people like each other. Why not show us the scenes where the really significant thigs happen?
Last edited:
Penelope Street
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 28, 2004
- Posts
- 1,471
First vs. Third Person
I consider The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn to be a great story and I don't think it would work nearly as well in the third person, in spite of the it being a sequel to a tale told in third person.
To Kill a Mockingbird isn't bad either.
I lean toward first person for short erotic tales where the intimacy of that perspective can be most effective
For some ideas regarding the strengths and weaknesses of each perspective, consider visiting:
http://www.author-network.com/adams4.html
http://tarakharper.com/k_frstpr.htm
http://teenwriting.about.com/od/pointofviewandvoice/
Take Care,
Penny
I consider The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn to be a great story and I don't think it would work nearly as well in the third person, in spite of the it being a sequel to a tale told in third person.
To Kill a Mockingbird isn't bad either.
I lean toward first person for short erotic tales where the intimacy of that perspective can be most effective
For some ideas regarding the strengths and weaknesses of each perspective, consider visiting:
http://www.author-network.com/adams4.html
http://tarakharper.com/k_frstpr.htm
http://teenwriting.about.com/od/pointofviewandvoice/
Take Care,
Penny
Last edited:
Rumple Foreskin
The AH Patriarch
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2002
- Posts
- 11,109
Just a quick clarification in case anyone cares.
I'm not anti-first person. It has distinct advantages and, as you indicated, has been used in some great reads. However, many new writers start in first person because it seems natural when, IMHO, it's much harder to master than third person limited.
Rumple Foreskin
I'm not anti-first person. It has distinct advantages and, as you indicated, has been used in some great reads. However, many new writers start in first person because it seems natural when, IMHO, it's much harder to master than third person limited.
Rumple Foreskin
Black Tulip
Not so delicate flower
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 5,945
I agree with Rumple that first person is harder to do correctly.
Before you know it, you've put something in that is impossible to know from that POV. Well, that is my experience with it anyway.
Before you know it, you've put something in that is impossible to know from that POV. Well, that is my experience with it anyway.
Black Tulip
Not so delicate flower
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 5,945
Poussin said:
Please do not kill it for all time. I think I was not clear enough in my comments. I think the car scene is one of the really erotic parts, but the reason for it happening was not well executed, not properly placed, whatever you might call it.
