Grammatical precision

[Pure]

[begin excerpt]

Grammar Glitch Pushes PSAT to Rethink, Rescore


By Linda Perlstein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 14, 2003; Page A01


"Toni Morrison's genius enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured."
Is there something grammatically wrong with this sentence?

Educational Testing Service, which administers the PSAT for the College Board, said there wasn't. Kevin Keegan, a Montgomery County high school journalism teacher, said there was.

After three months of back-and-forth letter writing, complete with dueling references to English usage books, the testing firm sent the question, from the writing portion of the Oct. 15 exam, to an outside panel of experts. Keegan's point was valid, the grammarians said, forcing ETS to throw out the question and bump up the test scores of nearly 500,000 students, of the 1.8 million who took the test that day. [end excerpt]

====
I thought I'd run this by our local experts. No fair trying to research the article. What's wrong?

J.

 

[openthighs_sarah]

Toni Morrison is obviously a man. It should be "enables him to... etc."

*blowing proudly on fingernails*

 

[Weird Harold]

[begin excerpt]

"Toni Morrison's genius enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured."

Missing commas.

"Toni Morrison's genius enables her to create novels that arise from, and express, the injustices African Americans have endured."

 

[MathGirl]

novels that arise from and express the injustices

There are something wrong with that. Not much, but something.
MG

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Shouldn't "African Americans" be hyphenated?


---dr.M.

 

[Pure]

There's no winner of the Golden Wartenberg Wheel**, yet.

Thanks to all.




** or, Blown Glass Dolphin Dildo, if you prefer.

 

[MathGirl]

Shouldn't "African Americans" be hyphenated?

I think Mr Harold are on the right track.
MG

 

[openthighs_sarah]

Shouldn't "African Americans" be hyphenated?

Only if she's getting married and she wants to keep her name.

 

[wildsweetone]

"Toni Morrison's genius enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured."

well, and bear in mind i have no qualifications for this... i feel one word needs changing.

it should say:

"Toni Morrison's genius enables her to create novels which arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured."

there is more than one novel and there is more than one African American referred to within the one sentence.

when i first looked at it, i thought the word 'that' was missing... still not 100% sure i'm correct with the 'which'.

 

[karmadog]

I think the English teacher wanted 'has endured'.

 

[Madame Manga]

I read the full article, so I'll just say that an "error" that subtle and esoteric is difficult to define as an error. Grammar and usage ain't exact sciences, and the SAT is crammed with propaganda and sanitized language in any case. The whole thing strikes me as pretty silly, but I'm sure that teacher has now permanently justified his entire existence in his own eyes. ;-)

MM

 

[openthighs_sarah]

Last edited by MathGirl on 05-14-2003 at 10:19 PM

Something about that just cracks me up, MG. I don't know why. I don't know anyone else who could make that a punch line, every time.

 

[Pure]

Now Madame M, one person's 'subtle' and 'esoteric' is another's bread and butter. ;-) Is there a way to 'do' grammar without being (or seeming) to some, picky and obsessive?

I found the point subtle at first, but upon reflection, more obvious and meaningful -- and having applicability elsewhere. As in (errors)--
"Imelda's pussy, which had the definite scent of gardenias, got her into no end of trouble." "John's curved scimitar cock, long admired by the opposite sex, brought him great notariety."



J.

 

[Weird Harold]

An additional exerpt from the article

Keegan, 49, noticed the question while going over the returned test of a student. "I was taught that rule a long time ago -- 30 years ago -- and I have actually enforced it on people's essays," he said.

Sounds like a hidebound teacher who can't admit that language evolves to me.

 

[TheEarl]

"Toni Morrison's genius enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured."

Shouldn't it be "Toni Morrison's genius enables her to create novels that arise from, and express, the injustices that African Americans have endured"

The Earl

 

[wildsweetone]

that was one of my options too TheEarl. and for crying out loud, i think i preferred the silly hat AV *big wicked winks*

 

[Madame Manga]

"Imelda's pussy, which had the definite scent of gardenias, got her into no end of trouble." "John's curved scimitar cock, long admired by the opposite sex, brought him great notoriety."


J.

Now that's what I call vivid illustrations of a principle. ;-) Care to write a book on grammar? I'll buy that one.

MM

 

[dr_mabeuse]

My plans to become a HS English teacher came to an abrupt end while I was volunteer-teaching a night class for students trying to pass the GED exam (that's a way for high school drop-outs to get the equivalent of a HS diploma).

There were a bunch of questions on comma use--which is correct, sentence A or sentence B, that kind of thing--and while I could get the answers, I couldn't explain how I knew that commas belonged there. None of these kids read, and I realized that I only knew where commas went because I read a lot and could 'feel' them. There was no way I could teach them that, and there was no way that they were going to learn all the rules of pinctuation in 3 class sessions.

I'm pretty sure that everyone who writes operates the same way I do: we intuitively know when to use a comma and when not to.

I'd also like to point out that all these rules belong to the world of non-fiction exposition, not to fiction. There are really no rules when it comes to fiction, there is only what works and what doesn't.

---dr.M.

 

[CrownJoolz]

[
"Toni Morrison's genius enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured."

Okay, I'll take a stab at it.

It is Toni Morrison's genius which enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices endured by African Americans.

Joolz

 

[Pure]

Some comments on proposals:

Weird H, commas around 'and express'. Possible but omitted by many since there's no way to misread. The tendency now is to omit some of these commas around short phrases, where misreading is not possible. Speaking of 'old rules' and language that 'changes with time', catch up, man ;-)

Math G, 'arise from and express.' Sounds infelicitous, I admit, but no grammar error; it's more style.

Dr. M, hyphenate 'African Americans'. That's no longer done, since most others have long NOT hyphenated; e.g., Italian Americans. Also people say "I don't want to be a 'hyphenated' American."

Wild Sweet Genius writer: "which" for that. Perhaps an improvement, but 'that' is not wrong.

Karma D: "has endured". Presumably with A A changed to singular? Possible, but that's not the problem, or a problem.

dr m: 'there are no rules when it comes to fiction'. A bit overstated, as you find out if you submit stories for publication, or even to Literotica 'cyber-publication'. If you're James Joyce, you may punctuate as you please, but otherwise.... (There is a new novel that has almost no paras and little punctuation in hundreds of pages: 'Austerlitz' by Sebald. Widely acclaimed. See also Saramago's new novel. "The Cave"--very sparse on paras and punctuation. But he's a Nobel prize winner.)

Looking at "The Best American Erotica, 2003" edited by Susie Bright, I see almost no unorthodox punctuation, typography, paragraphing, etc.
=============

To all, the clue is rather strong in the two examples I added. There is always something for all of us to learn

Best regards

 

[evesdream]

"Toni Morrison's genius enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices African Americans have endured."

well it certainly doesn't roll off the tongue, but it's tricky to tell why. I agree that maybe there should be two "that"s or "which's", so they agree with each other:

"Toni Morrison's genius enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices that African Americans have endured."

On second thought, the sentence could also make you wonder whether her novels arise from her genius or from the injustices- if we want to get nitpicky to the point of appearing dense, which we obviously do :/

 

[MathGirl]

There are really no rules when it comes to fiction, there is only what works and what doesn't.

Huh. I never realized how much fiction and sex have in common.
MG

 

[CrownJoolz]

Huh. I never realized how much fiction and sex have in common.
MG

In my wild youth they went hand-in-hand.

Joolz

 

[Pure]

Hi Crown J,

you proposed,

//It is Toni Morrison's genius which enables her to create novels that arise from and express the injustices endured by African Americans. //

That has the same defect as the original.

Fiction and sex: let's not underestimate the role of the predictable. Further, porn, here, every man's turn on, is one of the most predictable 'rule bound' of genres; that's why the hugely endowed hero never goes limp in mid action and why the ample busted heroine is never on her period. And why you will never see the phrase, "his pathetic shriveled cock" at literotica.



//Good smut: Hard to write, easy to read. //

Ordinary smut: Easy to write; hard to read a second time.

 

[TheEarl]

What was wrong with my suggestion then Pure? You missed me out.

The Earl