Go ask Alice (What to do about the top list)

[Guest]

would like to see more new poems
on the toplist. I'm a reader. I'm one of those who checks out the toplist to find new reads. This is the only site I know where there's so little variety on the list.

Not arguing that just anything should be up there, but many poems on that list have been there so long, I don't care if they're good or popular. I want to see something different.

alice

Alice I am frightened.

In the top 100 lists there are only 18 authors (Two of which are the Olympic groups)
Authors who appear only once: 6
Judo
Katpurrs
knessonsigh,
Manjoro_Eve,
Rhyme N punishment
Prose and Cons
Authors with multiple listings: 12
Caitlyn_Oshame 2
Crazy 2
Cymbidia 3
Daughter 2
Littlemissblair 2
RisiaSkye 14
Rnabokov 2
SA Storm 6
Thesandman 4
Tigerjen 35
WickedEve 16
WriterDom 6
Number of poems on top list by month of submission:
01/02 4
12/01 16
11/01 16
10/01 4
09/01 3
08/01 18
07/01 17
06/01 6
05/01 2
04/01 3
03/01 0
02/01 0
01/01 4
12/00 0
11/00 1
10/00 0
09/00 6
This is frightening. But what to do? I would say poems from December of 2001 are current that of course is my opinion. Yet using that guideline, only 20 poems are current. That would mean 80% of the list is old.
Let’s be more generous and add in November, a three-month span sounds better; it is 25% of the year. Using November as the cut-off, that brings current poems up to 40% and old to 60%. If we eliminate the older poems, which I assume do not get many votes, we would gain 60 spaces for new poems to enter the list. Our top 100 is actually a shrine, a tomb of poems. But what can we do? Perhaps Laurel can add a filter that removes poems after a certain date say 90 days. I think 3 months is a long time to bask in the glory of recognition. Or we authors could turn off the voting on our poems older than 90 days so they don’t clog up the list. I vote for that! Somehow I don’t think I will get many takers. If you want to read new poets, Alice you better go elsewhere.
U.P.

 

[Unmasked Poet]

Uh huh


U.P.

 

[WickedEve]

Well, one problem with turning off voting after 90 days is that some poems will be at the top 10. So if you turn voting off at 4.20 or a little higher or lower, you still end up with that poem staying on the list for a long time to come. And some of those old poems haven't yet been read by new readers, though I can understand the regulars being sick of seeing the same old same!
I, for one, have no problem getting my old poems off the list. I've gotten enough votes and feedback on them to tell the tale. I know which ones didn't work and which ones did. Getting my poems critiqued and getting feedback on them is my only goal, and usually the top list accomplishes that for me. After that, I'm ready for my new ones to rise to the top along with everyone else's.
Right now my poems are taking up space and it's not benefiting me at all.
I'm not sure what the solution is. Readers do have a right to vote however they like. Maybe a top list for new poems only?

 

[Unmasked Poet]

drop off

If you shut off votes, they are removed from the list. Admins did that so poems don't block a position. Within a couple of days, they're off the list.

U.P.

 

[WickedEve]

Well, then that's the way to go!
I'll start with my Quickie Quartet which is #1 right now... for probably the 12th time! It's gotten old for me, I can imagine how everyone else feels!
Goodbye Q.Q.

 

[WickedEve]

I'm so turned off!

I turned 12 of them off. I left a few on that have made it to #1 but they didn't stay long enough to be critiqued. And I kept voting on for some newer ones. But I did open up some new spaces. Hopefully, tj's old poems won't come along and fill them up! lol
Now that I've done my early spring cleaning, who's next?

 

[Unmasked Poet]

Applause

WickedEve,

I believe I am tearing up, your sacrifice will not be in vain. Besides you're making more room for your new poems also.

U.P.

 

[WickedEve]

U.P.

Go ahead and weep a little. I love to make men cry.

 

[SA Storm]

.

 

[WickedEve]

SA Storm

Joined you. Just slaughtered 3 of my lambs.

Want to have lamp chops for dinner? lol
Your poems haven't been on there for very long, SA. It was great that you did that. Maybe a few more will join in.
I see that after just a few hours, I'm down to 5 poems on the list. Some of my newer ones are finally moving up the list, now that we've cleared some "clutter." lol
Hey, tj, if you read this thread, how about helping out. Your poems occupy over a third of the list. Some have been there so long they've taken root. lol Let your new poems fill up the top spots! I think it will be very exciting to see new poems from all of us, and some new poets!
This is a good idea, U.P. It'll keep things fresh and exciting!

 

[Cyberguy]

would like to see more new poems
on the toplist. I'm a reader. I'm one of those who checks out the toplist to find new reads. This is the only site I know where there's so little variety on the list.

Not arguing that just anything should be up there, but many poems on that list have been there so long, I don't care if they're good or popular. I want to see something different

I'm going to have to dissent on this one. Lit offers 5 ways of finding poems:

* most reads (top 100)
* highest rated (top 100)
* newest (past 7 days)
* alphabetic
* random

The "highest rated" list is not the place to go to find new reads. It's the place to go to find the poems other readers, over time, have selected as the best poems lit has to offer. If I was a new lit reader, I would expect the list to be just that. According to lit readers, Quickie Quartet is one of the very best poems lit has to offer. But a new reader on lit may never find it now that it has been removed from the "highest rated" list.

The "new poems" list is the place to go to look for new poems! I don't think poems are even eligible for the "highest rated" list until they have at least 10 votes (I have a poem I recently posted that would be #1 on the rating list, but it only has 5 votes ). There are lots of new poems sitting there on a convenient list, begging to be read. No, you can't choose them based on how other people rated them. That's because they are new! As the seasoned lit reader, it is up to you to pass judgement on them and choose those that new readers will find on the "highest rated" list.

So Alice, if you want to read new poems, check out the "new poems" list. I'm there. I'm different (okay, my newest poem is ironically Tigerjen-ish, but I have others!). Read me. Please.

Now, on to part 2. UP's complaint that the "highest rated" list is dominated by a relatively small number of popular poets. Yes, over 1/3 of the poems on the "highest rated" list were written by one poet. Personally, I like that poet's work, but I think the concern is valid.

I have two suggestions for how to address this issue:

1. Simply expand the number of poems on the list. There are 500 stories on the "highest rated stories" list. Why not more poems? My guess is the 100 poem limit was put in place long before there were 15 poems a day pouring into Literotica.

2. Limit the number of poems a single poet can have on the list. If the practical purpose of the list is to enable readers to find poets they like by reading those that others have liked, then having 5 poems on the top list by a given poet should be sufficient. The reader will get a feel for the poet and read their other works. Some of the highest rated poems won't be on the list, but they will get read. Poems that are not technically in the top 100 will make the list and get the recognition they deserve, and there will be greater diversity, which I think is the goal.

Wow. This has got to be my longest post on lit. Now I have to go to UP's poll and vote to send myself to hell

 

[daughter]

Cyberguy

I hear you. Here's my argument:

#1 Truth is fewer readers go to the "New Poems List". Some days there 100 new poems listed. If I don't know a poet, at least the top list tells me who's getting read. I don't equate votes with quality. However, reads is one indicator of where one might start.
Besides, what's wrong with more folks getting exposure? Why do I want to check a list that doesn't change? The list is not an attractive feature on the site if it's stagnant.

#2 There are a lot of good poems that can't get on the list because some works never drop off. Even when you hit 10 votes the liklihood of you hitting the list is slim. When I got here I didn't realize how many poets there were because as a new reader, I looked to the list. Yes, I checked the new poems, but I didn't know what it took to get on the list so I had no idea that all these poets might have many poems but simply weren't represented. There are more readers who read only and are not members so they don't learn what you know as member. They don't populate our forums. They hit the lists and leave.

#3 If a member is popular and on the list, it only takes a click to see their entire index of works. The list is a great way to view the variety of poets in a glance.

It's like t.v. sitcoms. I don't want to turn on the t.v. every night and see the same re-runs. Look at the stats:

This is frightening. But what to do? I would say poems from December of 2001 are current that of course is my opinion. Yet using that guideline, only 20 poems are current. That would mean 80% of the list is old.

This isn't anti-poet. It's pro. Cast your vote. U.P. made a request not a demand.

Peace,

daughter

 

[WickedEve]

Cyberguy

I'm glad you told another side of the story. I didn't realize there were so many other ways to find poems. I never paid any attention to the most read list. I'm not very observant. lol I just wanted to make sure that other new poems got a shot. That's why I agreed to take mine off.
So, what I said to tj, I want to change it. tj do what's right for you.
I'm now going to give this more thought, and stay tuned to what U.P. and others have to say. I don't mind helping other's out, and I'll keep those poems off the list if that truly helps.
Though, now that I think about it... (brain kicks back in) After a poem has had its run on the new poems list (6 or 7 days), it's sometimes never heard from again, unless it's on the top list. I know that's happened to some of my earlier ones that are under a different name. No one seems to know they're there.
I still like the idea of having a new poems top list. After a poet's poem gets 10 votes and a high enough score, his/her poem can stay on there for 30 days, or 60, 90, whatever. After that the poem goes to the regular list.

 

[WickedEve]

Good post, daughter. Thank you!

 

[Unmasked Poet]

More Data

The new poem list is two pages in length approximately 150 can exist on the two pages. Depending on the poems submitted the older poems are moved off a day at a time. Most poems stay on the new poems list 3 days. Before they are moved off to oblivion. The new poems list does not expand. To stay up 7 days lit would have to only receive about 22 poems a day, lit averages twice that. I know this because I read the list and count it almost everyday.

Most poems have only three days to gain an audience of ten votes, which will then make it eligible for the list. That is eligible not on the list. The poem must average an incredible score just to enter at 100. So Cyberguy at 5 reads with your poem off the list it is sunk unless you begin promoting it which may get you ten votes and an average score so low that it does not matter. As of now you would need a 4.12 just to make 100 on the list, which you could not do because the average score is weighted toward number of reads. Meaning your 4.12 with 10 votes is useless if there are 20 poems at 4.12 with 15 votes they get to the list first.

Ever get the feeling space is at premium for poetry?

Oh yeah the top reads list, to make the top read list you would need a minimum of 650 reads. The top read list holds 100 poems max also. The top read list does not match the top 100 list. In fact there is not a single correlation between the two list not one poem! Oddly enough the top reads list is primarily alpha and is composed of the poems that begin with the letter A or numbers, which coincidently matches the alpha list. Meaning most readers go to the alpha list to read. So again as a new poet you should start your poem with the letter A or a number this will put you on page 1 thru 6 of the alpha A (erotic and non-erotic) list. Not to worry there is about 390 poems on those 6 pages.

While there are plenty of ways to read poetry here, the best way to get feedback is on the top 100 list. Which does not reflect the current poetry being written or submitted. We are saying this is our best rated it just happens that most of it is 5 months to a year and a half old. The majority of the newer poetry is in limbo and to find it you must search through the alpha list randomly. Sure I’d do that. I think that explains why the most read list is alpha.

I suggest you change your poem titles to A something or other. Hang out on the forum, send out emails and we will see you on the top 100 list. Of just write good poetry and take your chances like the rest of us.

The more room we make by moving off the older poetry, the more writers that will interact, the better the poetry will get. The more fun we will have. The more people will get recognized. The light does not shine brighter on you if have 3 or 40 poems on the list, especially if they are all old.

I’m sure some programming thing can be done by the board and in time that may happen, but what we can do ourselves is try to keep the space for newer poems. Between Wicked and Storm 15 poems can move up and get some air. Now Wicked and Storm are good writers who are also popular so for them it means little that their older poems don’t appear. Their new poems will make the list. Yet to a poet who hasn’t made the list it may mean a quite a lot. More diversity, more opportunity.

U.P.

 

[Laurel]

Manu and I have talked about having several different top lists for poems and stories that are based on the age of the work. This thread has reminded me, and I'll see if I can move it up the "To-Do" list.

 

[Cyberguy]

Now we're getting somewhere

I think there are problems here that need to be addressed. UP and daughter make some very valid points in their posts. However, I think we are jumping to a solution too quickly.

Let's step back and see if we can get a handle on the underlying capabilities desired:

1. There needs to be a means by which readers, both new and old, can wade through the huge volume of poems on Lit to find those that appeal to them

2. There needs to be a way for regular Lit readers to find new poems that appeal to them

I'm sure there are others, but let's start there. Now let's look at the current solution and see how well it fits:

1. There are a number of ways of finding poems, but only a fraction of the poems on Lit are highly visible through these search techniques, so many deserving works get lost

2. It is difficult for Lit regulars to find the best new poetry because
a) everyone looks for it on the top list and it doesn't get there unless it gets a lot of votes in a very short time, which only happens for the popular, established authors
b) even if you look at the new poems list, it is ordered by date and there are no scores, and poems disappear in a matter of days

Clearly, the current solution was designed to support a much lower volume of poems and doesn't scale.

So what solutions will work. Looking at what's been done elsewhere, I think Amazon's model is a good fit. Just imagine logging in and getting a list of new poem recommended that were liked by people who liked the same poems you liked.

Unfortunately, Lit doesn't have the resources Amazon does, so that kind of capability is probably out of the question. Here are some that might be more viable:

1. Have a Hot List in the Top Lists section in addition to the all-time top vote getters. The Hot List would have no minimum number of votes and would be time-limited (say, 60 days).

2. Have a "Poet's Corner" listing area similar to the Volunteer Editors section where anyone who has a poem posted could have an entry, allowing readers to browse the poets instead of the poems. An entry would contain a short description by the poet of their writings and some mechanism for accessing the poet's list of poems. The weighted average score of the poets works would be given, and the section could even be sorted on this, so the highest rated poets would appear first. If a tabular format was used that allowed for user-specified sorting, this list could alternatively be sorted by most recent submission date, making it easy to find new poems by poet.

3. Make the entire database of poems accessible sorted by score and date of post, as well as alphabetically.

I just saw Laurel's post come up while I was writing this, and I'm glad to see that someone is listening. This is truly a special place and I don't know how they do it as a free site (with no annoying pop-up ads!). I hope this thread helps make their job easier!

 

[tigerjen]

The Poetry Toplist in general should be expanded....etc.

My opinions here:

1. The poetry toplist in general should be expanded to
a "top 500" just like the story toplists are. It is not
fair to us poets---established and new---to be limited
to just one list of only 1-100.

2. The poetry toplist could be split into 2: one for
strictly erotic poems, and one for non-erotic. Then
a *third* which overs both categories overall, just
as it is done with the stories (one overall, then
the lists are split into the very many categories).

3. Shutting off the voter option isn't going to do much
good, only because if people want to go vote, they
can't. Plus we should NOT be forced to shut off that
option.

4. I like the idea that W.E. has in regards to a separate
toplist for the *new poems* only.....a good possibility
but I hope that Laurel would take into consideration of
all opinions said here on this thread and make a decision.

5. I think that with all the attention that the Poetry Games
and among other threads that have been going on for
the last few months (at least since I've joined Lit in
July '01), I say that for us poets we get some compensation
in terms of expanding the poetry toplist....I guess one could
call this "the poetry revolution" here on Lit?!

This is all I have to say for now.......

tigerjen

 

[Unmasked Poet]

Opinions

Cyberguy no one is being hasty, true I have been here only a few months yet based on my time on the board reading, commenting, and supporting poetry (while thoroughly enjoying myself I might add) I feel I have insight into the community. I am comfortable expressing my thoughts and they are never hasty at all.

Respectfully unless you have another name with which you have posted poems and contributed to the well being of our community I suggest it is you who are hasty. I'm sure in time your contributions to our community will add greatly to our diversity. I enjoy this discussion, yet I fail to see what your arguing for? What is it you want? How does the poets by their own choice removing their old poems effect anything? It is not a law, it's a choice.

Your opinions are welcome and valuable as I have said we have suggested similar plans as yours before. My idea to clean the list has more than just one objective. The main one is to create more space and opportunity, yet also to have the list reflect the current state of poetry. Our best poets number more than the 18 to 20 who can stay on the list. By clearing out old poetry quite a few veterans and new poets can show their talent and get recognition. The loss to poets like WickedEve Storm or Tigerjen is non-existent. Their older poems are still available by selecting the member home page, the poems are still on the alpha list. There is no down side that I can see please point out my folly.

My goal is to try and make the list reflective of the people who write to get on it. Clearing space by voluntarily removing old poems will allow more people to have a voice. The established poets star will not shine any less bright.


By the way the 15 spaces created by Wicked Eve and Storm were gobbled up by:
3 poems with 10 votes less than a month old.
2 poem with 12 votes written less than a month ago.
5, 6 month or older poems by Tigerjen
3 old poems by WriterDom at 4, 8 and 12 months.
1 poem a month old by WickedEve
1 poem a month old by SA Storm


U.P.

 

[daughter]

Let me be frank

Shutting off the voter option isn't going to do much
good, only because if people want to go vote, they
can't. Plus we should NOT be forced to shut off that
option.

TigerJen,shutting off the voting doesn't benefit you. NO ONE is forcing you to do anything. Your work monopolizes the list. You have the POWER to change it and you've chosen not to.

Have the balls to say "F--k You" cause your refusal is just that. You don't need a dictate from Laurel. And U.P. made a request not a demand.

It's your world Tigerjen. What the hell were we thinking that you would step off the throne? Hail to the Queen.

Peace,

daughter

 

[tigerjen]

Re: Let me be frank

TigerJen,shutting off the voting doesn't benefit you.
NO ONE is forcing you to do anything. Your work monopolizes
the list. You have the POWER to change it and you've chosen
not to.
Have the balls to say "Fuck You" cause your refusal is just that.
You don't need a dictate from Laurel. And U.P. made a request
not a demand.
It's your world Tigerjen. What the hell were we thinking that
you would step off the throne? Hail to the Queen.
[/B]

daughter...
I wasn't looking for a 'dictate' from Laurel....all I had mentioned was
to see what she thought about all these opinions flying back and
forth.......
Perhaps "being forced" is too strong of a term in regards to what
U.P. requested, but that was my impression. (interestingly enough,
the same thing happened with me a couple weeks ago where I work
when I told a co-worker that I felt she was forcing a resident to stay
up longer on New Year's Eve when the resident didn't want to stay
up later with the others......the co-worker got all p.o.'ed at me....but
that is another story) When I read an item such as a request of
that nature, my mind tends to jump immediately. In other words, I felt
that I was reading between the lines of the request, that is all. That is
why I got the impression that I did.

I don't say lines such as 'f--- you'.....that's not me.......perhaps I
convey that particular message in a different way, but I'm not one
of those to flat out say 'f--- you' unless its super extreme.

One more note.....I did have the balls to speak out my opinion on
this matter......and going into it, I knew I was going to get a lot of heat
for it....and daughter, i am glad you were frank with me on this. But
in the meanwhile, I am right to my own damn opinion(s) just as anyone
else on this board.

tigerjen

 

[Whispersecret]

I applaud Wicked Eve and SA Storm on their generous sacrifice for the benefit of other poets. It says much about their dedication to the health of the poetry boards, their desire to help others, and their characters in general.

On a personal note, I didn't get to read the poems that were nixed before they disappeared off the list, but upon browsing some of what remained, I feel, based on a fleeting aquaintance with WE and SAS's work, the top list is probably poorer for their absence.

 

[Laurel]

I don't see a need for anyone to turn off any voting. When we put in place top lists arranged according to different periods - Top New, Top 30 days, Top 60 Months, Top overall - this should allow both older and newer poems to gain exposure. As I said, this addition to both the poems & stories lists is on our To-Do list, and I'll do what I can to bump it up a bit. Right now, the priority is trying to figure out what is slowing the site down during peak usage, so I can't give an ETA on this feature, but please do know that it is in the queue.

If they could only perfect human cloning, then we could do some serious crossing off on our Big Wish List!

 

[Guest]

bump

 

[Jazzy2]

talk about playa hatin'

I don't say lines such as 'f--- you'.....that's not me.......perhaps I
convey that particular message in a different way,

So what? Not using the words makes your actions less funky?!

Gurl, you're sad. You've got the power to make a whole lot folks have a chance to shine and you come back with that lame ass excuse about voters?

Your freakin' entire list has been on the toplist. How much fame do you want?

Shout out to Wicked and SA

Jazzy2