Girls wrestling boys

overthebow

Laugh-a while-a you can-a
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Are this girl's rights to have a wrestling match being infringed?

Does the boy have to wrestle her?

Is it reasonable that a girl who didn't wrestle would feel 'like an object of lust' when another girl won by forfeit?

From the Seattle Times:
==============

Parents taking issue with forfeits when boys don't join girls on mat

By Linda Shaw

Seattle Times staff reporter


Girls who wrestled for several Puget Sound-area middle schools this year easily won their matches against boys from two private schools.

The girls stepped onto the mat. Their opponents from Tacoma Baptist and Cascade Christian stayed in their seats. The referee then raised the girls' hands to signal they'd won by forfeit.

But the easy victories didn't sit well with the girls, including Meaghan Connors, a seventh-grader at McMurray Middle School on Vashon Island. Her father, Jerry, is prepared to go to court over what he considers a clear case of sex discrimination.

For years, schools in the Rainier Valley League, including McMurray, have honored the ability of the two private schools to forfeit matches rather than have a boy wrestle one of the handful of girls on the public-school teams.

League President Dan Petersen said it was the same as honoring desires of other religious schools not to compete on certain days.

He noted that wrestling rules allow a forfeit for any reason.

"I don't care if it's a religious school or not," he said. "If a person chooses not to wrestle, they don't have to wrestle."

Tacoma Baptist's superintendent did not return phone calls about the policy and the reasons for it. At Cascade Christian in Puyallup, Superintendent Don Johnson said the school "does not want to put our young men in a situation where they would be inappropriately touching a young lady."

Connors, however, believes the forfeit rule shouldn't be used to discriminate against girls, including his daughter, one of a half-dozen girls on teams in the league, drawn from schools in King, Pierce and Mason counties.

Connors, a former Episcopal president and one-time pastoral assistant for social justice at St. James Cathedral in Seattle, believes religion should play a role in public life. "But there's a limit," he said.
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"If my religion says that once a year on a full moon, I had to get into a hit-and-run accident, I think the cops would take exception to that," he said. "That's an extreme example, but if you come into the public domain, you can't develop a policy that discriminates against people."

He's filed a complaint alleging the Vashon Island School District is violating Title IX, the federal law that prohibits sex discrimination in schools, by allowing the policies to exist. If the policies aren't changed, he says, he'll make a complaint to the Office of Civil Rights at the U.S. Department of Education and, if necessary, file a lawsuit.

The principal at McMurray Middle School, Greg Allison, said the school values its female wrestlers and plans to attempt to get the policies changed, too.

"We can't necessarily change a private school district's policy," he said. "But we can certainly try to influence it as best we can."

Common conflicts
Conflict isn't new to girls in wrestling. It has been a co-ed sport in large part because too few girls participate to have their own leagues. Critics say the sport's too dangerous for girls, especially when they wrestle against boys. And some are uncomfortable with a co-ed sport with so much physical contact.

When girls started wrestling in Washington state decades ago, they often faced forfeits from boys at public schools, said Darcy Lees, program supervisor for equity coordination at the Office of Superintendent of Public Instruction. But that's died down, she said, because boys don't want to give up points that could help them advance to the state wrestling championship.

Still, girls don't always get a warm welcome. Meaghan Connors and teammate Sylvie Shiosaki, 13, said they sometimes get taunted at matches, as do the boys who wrestle against them.

Nevertheless, girls' participation in wrestling is growing. In Washington, 69 schools had at least one girl on their wresting team in the 2003-04 school year, and there were more this year although the figures aren't yet compiled, said Mike Colbrese, executive director of the Washington Interscholastic Activities Association (WIAA). The WIAA administers school sports leagues across the state. One hundred girls participated in this year's all-girls tournament, Colbrese said.

Meaghan Connors and Sylvie Shiosaki find the sport challenging, fun and not at all sexual.

"When you walk on the mat, you're not a girl, you're not a guy anymore. You're just there to wrestle," Shiosaki said.

Girls have the right to join wrestling teams at public middle and high schools, and to compete at wrestling tournaments.

Nearly 20 years ago, in a case that involved the state Human Rights Commission, Marysville High School had to pay a $500 fine and apologize to a girl on Vashon High School's wrestling team after it barred her from a tournament.

What's happening now in the Rainier Valley League, however, is not as clear cut, Lees said. Wrestling rules allow for forfeits. Girls get the points for the win. Private schools don't have to adhere to Title IX.

"I'm struggling with whether we would have any kind of authority," she said.

Considering the message
But Nancy Hogshead-Makar, legal adviser for the Women's Sports Foundation and a gold medalist in swimming at the 1984 Olympics, said the question is whether the WIAA, an organization that includes public and private schools, is a public entity. In a recent court case in Michigan, a similar organization was ruled to be a "public actor." And that means it can't allow policies that discriminate against girls, she said.

Girls are harmed when they win by forfeit, she added, because they lose out on the experience gained in competition, which is at the heart of what sports is about.

And it sends the message, she said, that there's something wrong with them.

"What if, for religious reasons, people said they were not going to wrestle African Americans, or wrestle people of different religions?" she asked. "When you put it in those terms, you can see how the person who is not able to compete is being harmed."

The Christian schools say little about the issue.

Johnson, Cascade Christian's superintendent, said it was difficult to say whether the school's policy is religiously based because the school approaches everything from a Christian perspective. He said he probably would have no response to Jerry Connors' concerns about sexual discrimination.

"Our approach is a concern for a young man and a young lady both," he said.

Tacoma Baptist's policy was passed by its school board, Athletic Director Keith Patefield said. But he said he knew little about it because he is new to the district this year. He referred questions to the school's superintendent, who did not return phone calls, and to the wrestling coach, who is out of the country.

Meaghan Connors didn't have to endure any forfeits herself this year. As a seventh-grader, she wasn't McMurray's best wrestler in her weight class, so she wasn't on the varsity squad, the only one that officially competes at the middle-school level. Still, she came home upset when Shiosaki got forfeits. She told her father she felt degraded, like an "object of lust."

Shiosaki said three of her 11 matches this year were forfeits from boys at the two schools, significantly shortening her season. That's what concerns her mother, Lonnie, who's supporting Jerry Connors' efforts. The lack of experience handicaps the girls when they go to state tournaments or even the state's all-girls exhibition tournament, she said.

Some of the boys on McMurray's team dislike the policies, too.

"It's pretty disrespectful," said Jesse Mish, 14, who's won several state wrestling awards.

Petersen, the Rainier Valley League president, said that as far as he's concerned, the issue has been long decided.

"It's something we've dealt with and the other schools have been fine with it," he said.

Some coaches wonder what can be done short of Cascade Christian and Tacoma Baptist withdrawing from the league.

"You can't force a kid to do something his parents say he can't do," said Craig Johnson, wrestling coach at Hawkins Middle School in the North Mason School District. Still, he said, he'd like the two girls on his team to have more opportunities to compete.

The WIAA has not been asked for its guidance, and for now, it's a league matter, Colbrese said. Still, he said, he's looking into it. To him, there are conflicts among the freedom of religion, the freedom from discrimination and the wrestling rule that allows forfeits.

"I'm not sure where you come out with all those things mixed in," he said.

Jerry Connors, however, maintains private schools should adhere by public rules when they're competing against public schools in public facilities.

"My daughter's rights," he said, "are not going to be bargained away for any reason."
 
Personally, I don't see whats wrong with the boys forfiting against the girls. If it makes them feel uncomfortable, then why force them to do something like that? For years we're taught respect for women, so for some to suddenly be thrown on that mat with one and you're expected to grab, toss and slam them...they might not be comfortable with it. But then I can see some guys enjoying it cause it gives them the right to throw in a few gropes on a girl, and then I'm sure we'd hear about that in the paper as well.
 
I think anyone even remotely aware of what freestyle wrestling is all about would immediately understand how many people could view girls vs. boys as inappropriate.
 
Matthew Craig said:
Nobody wants to be out wrestled by a GIRL.

Speak for yourself, Mr. Reverse Psychology. Like Gigli, I find attracting the attentions of a woman who can kick my ass to be a major turnon.
 
If there's a rule that says you can forfeit for any reason, than call me crazy but that gives me the impression that you can forfeit for any reason.
 
Simple solution: stop the wrestling programs.

High school matches were commonplace between New England schools until the late 60's. They dropped them, then tried to bring them back in the 90's... at which point everyone remembered how boring traditional wrestling is to watch. :rolleyes: So, they've stopped again.
 
i don't see what the problem is, really. they're not exactly wrestling gogeous, big-titted nymphos. not that the girls can't be lookers, but the way their bodies tend to build themselves if they really get into wresting and all the serious (and oft stupid) training, i can see how it could be easy to just drop gender entirely when the match starts. you just have to be able to get over the gender difference before the match.

they get all musclely.

put me in a headlock, baby. ohhhhhhhhhhh yyeeeeeeee-aaaahhhh
 
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When I was in 5th grade I took wrestling just because the hottest girl in our class got a wild feminie hair up her ass. I prayed day after day that I'd get to "practice" with her. (I would have totally kicked her ass too)

Then the time came. I was so damned nervous about touching her and having her scream "PERVERT" that I really couldn't do anything.
 
i would have thought the Christian schools would have been more concerned about how gay wrestling can seem.

you know...
two guy in nice physical condition...
skin-tight spandex...
gratuitous amounts of groping...
straining against each other, all sweaty...
that starting position where one's on his knees with the other behind him...

oh baby!
 
I have to ask myself then...if they are forfeiting the matchs because the boys will not or do not want to wrestle girls, what kind of impression does that leave for kids about sex and sexuality? So uptight about boys and girls wrestling, what about dating?
 
As one who has sparred and fought and wrestled, when you're down there fighting with someone and trying to stay ahead of your opponent's next move or trying to stay on top of things, you don't have time to think about grabbing a girl inappropriately. I can understand if the children are being taunted by others for having to wrestle the opposite sex. But in these circumstances when you join the team, you have knowledge beforehand that you will be wrestling a girl perhaps. It really shouldn't be a big deal unless someone behind the scenes is making it that way.
When sparring or wrestling, the movements are so fast, you just don't have time to realize or think about it. And after a time, these moments and holds and locks etc, become like breathing.
 
There's a very simple solution. The public school should just not schedule any of the pariochial(sp) schools.

If the private schools want to forfiet matches then they can form their own league.
 
SgtSpiderMan said:
There's a very simple solution. The public school should just not schedule any of the pariochial(sp) schools.

If the private schools want to forfiet matches then they can form their own league.
But what if this is something they wish to pursue to the point of taking it all the way through highschool onto the Olympics? I think it's ludicrous the rules some have. I think if they know the girls will be wrestling with the boys, they should let it lie. Or cut the girls team altogether. I think it sucks to forfeit a match and not be able to put to use the skill and all the hard work put forth just because of some uptight bible thumper. If my daughter was in this position, I'd pursue fighting this.
 
Keep the rule the way it is. Boot the teams religious team out of the league, and that includes all sports. Here is why. If the holy rollers think it is inappropriate to touch a girl in that manor, then I would venture to say it must be much worse to touch a boy in that manor. They should not be wrestling at all then.

Before I went to the mat with a girl wrestler, I would want a release from any sexual abuse or assault claims against me. I can just see some smart ass lawyer saying his daughter was inappropriately touched during a match and have the kid arrested. I can see the video tape and the bastard saying "see see he touched her vagina."
 
bill-pix-trade said:
Keep the rule the way it is. Boot the teams religious team out of the league, and that includes all sports. Here is why. If the holy rollers think it is inappropriate to touch a girl in that manor, then I would venture to say it must be much worse to touch a boy in that manor. They should not be wrestling at all then.

Before I went to the mat with a girl wrestler, I would want a release from any sexual abuse or assault claims against me. I can just see some smart ass lawyer saying his daughter was inappropriately touched during a match and have the kid arrested. I can see the video tape and the bastard saying "see see he touched her vagina."

I'm puzzled by your response. On the one hand you suggest religious teams, or any teen-age boy who has misgivings, out of all sports.

Then you say, in the next paragraph, that'd you want a release signed that states you won't be accused of sexual abuse or assault claims. I would suggest a demand on your part for that would result in you forfeiting the match.
 
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